Regarding Future Website Redesign Plans

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CrazyDreamer
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Re: Regarding Future Website Redesign Plans

Post by CrazyDreamer » Sat May 16, 2015 9:39 pm

As for the intended functions of the site going forward, if I could just put on my professional hat for a moment . . . *puts on Mad Library and Information Scientist hat*

(1) Catalogs are not outmoded. You cannot have a vibrant community without a discovery layer; even sites such as Facebook, Tumblr, or Twitter use liking/sharing, favoriting/reblogging, and favoriting/retweeting as a community-mediated discovery methods, although they're more instant-message-oriented than media repositories. You may want to create a unified search to increase access to outside resources, of course.*

(2) Hosting is a necessary if we are to avoid losing access to entire sections of our community and art history. There are plenty of reasons that some people don't want to subject their videos to YouTube (e.g., ContentID, advertising) or want to restrict them to a logged-in user community. There are also legacy concerns, because this is the only repository for many AMVs by creators who have left the community, and that number will continue to increase due to natural turnover.

(3) Ratings, reviews, and recommendations are very, very important. This is true to some extent even in the traditional library world (which has some ethical boundaries not of concern here), but it's also a key feature of everything from YouTube to Netflix to Amazon, and for good reasons. Quality/interest filtering helps increase people's RoI for the time spent browsing potentially interesting videos, and automated recommendation is a key discovery method. At a minimum, you may want to increase the social media aspects of the site, especially on the catalog side.**

None of this is to suggest that community/social aspects are not important—the way that they're firewalled at the moment is perhaps too extreme—but I'm not an expert on that outside of how they interact with media repositories/catalogs.

*Unified search might work better with community cataloging of outside resources, although there are many potential problems with that. Delving into that rabbit hole is beyond the scope of this post.

**Opt-in for existing objects (video pages, account pages), opt-out for new objects.

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Re: Regarding Future Website Redesign Plans

Post by Farlo » Sat May 16, 2015 9:39 pm

i remember those days. no matter how you list the community, i think the biggest problem is that its mostly dead. less active members means less potential donations. I like the Idea of utilizing youtube, but their processing screws up quality, especially with older videos. we could always go to http://www.reddit.com/r/amv/ and inform people that the ORG exists, i like to refer people over when they are trying to find videos.

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Re: Regarding Future Website Redesign Plans

Post by CrazyDreamer » Sat May 16, 2015 9:44 pm

People should be able to use YouTube if they want to, and we should enable cataloging, discovery, and viewing of those videos. People should be able to not use YouTube if they don't want to, and we should enable cataloging, discovery, and viewing of those videos.

This is not an either/or.

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Re: Regarding Future Website Redesign Plans

Post by Farlo » Sat May 16, 2015 9:48 pm

CrazyDreamer wrote:People should be able to use YouTube if they want to, and we should enable cataloging, discovery, and viewing of those videos. People should be able to NOT use YouTube if they don't want to, and we should enable cataloging, discovery, and viewing of THOSE videos.

This is not an either/or.
thats what i was getting at, but i'm not so good at getting thoughts out anymore.

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Re: Regarding Future Website Redesign Plans

Post by Pwolf » Sat May 16, 2015 9:55 pm

Farlo wrote:
CrazyDreamer wrote:People should be able to use YouTube if they want to, and we should enable cataloging, discovery, and viewing of those videos. People should be able to NOT use YouTube if they don't want to, and we should enable cataloging, discovery, and viewing of THOSE videos.

This is not an either/or.
thats what i was getting at, but i'm not so good at getting thoughts out anymore.
x2

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Re: Regarding Future Website Redesign Plans

Post by Shin-AMV » Sat May 16, 2015 10:50 pm

CrazyDreamer wrote:People should be able to use YouTube if they want to, and we should enable cataloging, discovery, and viewing of those videos. People should be able to not use YouTube if they don't want to, and we should enable cataloging, discovery, and viewing of those videos.

This is not an either/or.
x3
I don't think people are actively saying get rid of the catalog, but rather to refine it so it can catalog entries in a way that isn't exclusive to itself and harnessing outside resources rather then push them away (what Pwolf said)

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Re: Regarding Future Website Redesign Plans

Post by MimS » Sun May 17, 2015 3:29 am

CrackTheSky wrote:
Pwolf wrote:Any sort of redesign at this point requires a complete refocus, as GQ stated. Personally, I'd like to see the catalog and video uploads go away. Focus the site on the forum, contests, and social events. Removing video uploads would remove the need for donations and open more options for the site, as far as where it could go without running into legal trouble (advertising at cons?).
I would hate to see this. Pretty much the only thing this place is useful for (to me) is the catalog and the ability to search for and find videos based on almost any criteria I would want. I still download videos and keep them on my HDD, so I'm probably in the minority as I know most people watch videos via streaming these days, but I love love love that I have unlimited access to over 100,000 individual AMVs that I can search for and find with relative ease, versus trying to find specific videos on YouTube which can be maddening. This website's greatest asset is the fact that there are so many videos on here available for download, a huge portion of which are not available anywhere else. Old videos whose editors have moved on to other things and who never bothered to upload to YouTube can be found on here, and although it may take accidentally stumbling across them to find them at all, the fact that thy're here means that there's some record of them which would be lost if the catalog and uploads were to go away. This, in my opinion, would massively suck.
This.
I, myself, don't really edit anymore but some days ago I even happened to get from here an old vid of mine because it wasn't anywhere else and the same can happen about some vids I used to love in the past that I want to get back.

So, if a complete redesign/rebuild happens, make sure to keep the catalog.
Btw, been a long time since I stopped following how things are going on the org but what I can say for sure is getting a cooler website is a struggle. My experience with AMV-France is that, even with capable people, it won't fall from the sky, a website takes a lot of time before even being made, it requires the whole responsible people to actually know what to put in it and how, it requires many different abilities not provided by a training alone (as good as a web programmer can be, web designer is still needed !) and these said people do this, most of the time, for free during their free time when they can be paid a lot for the same thing in their everyday's life.
Actually, getting a new website for AMV-France became an inside joke, everytime our programmer said "I'm progressing", our reaction was just "rofl". Well, funny thing is we do see some progress atm but it took us years, more than the first time org even mentioned redesign, it required us to actually get more than one person capable AND dedicated to helping the community and these both things together are actually where the problem is.

tl;dr Be patient, blaming on the admins is easy (and more than probably, there are reasons to blame them) but it's not because they're admins that they can make things faster, if the community is concerned for real for the redesign, the capable people will come out from it.
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Re: Regarding Future Website Redesign Plans

Post by MimS » Sun May 17, 2015 3:32 am

I would like to say again : make the catalog your strong point tbh, I'm not even sure any amv website can provide an "history of AMV" as you can, org was here first (kind of), make editors know about it! Only AMV news has a catalog rivalizing but not from this pov

(For god's sake, I've been on the forum for years and in this sub-form I still can't edit, it's just a stupid thing to keep this option to donators XD)
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Re: Regarding Future Website Redesign Plans

Post by Shui » Sun May 17, 2015 3:51 am

CrazyDreamer wrote:People should be able to use YouTube if they want to, and we should enable cataloging, discovery, and viewing of those videos. People should be able to not use YouTube if they don't want to, and we should enable cataloging, discovery, and viewing of those videos.

This is not an either/or.
x4 though I'm a download rather than streaming guy - I realize that it's not where it's at right now.
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fucking stealing other poeples hard work and claiming it as your own, you guys should be ashemed

ppl fukin fuk spent years making those animes, blood sweat and spilt coffe stains drawing all day long just to get a title "animator: this GUY" and then those music ppl spend years learning to produce music, teams of so many hard working ppl just trying to get their stuff out there in the world then WHAT TEH FUK DO U GUYS DO? u fukin take the drawings, u fukin take the music, then u just slap it fukin together like its fukin nothing, then u make banners and og take credit for it fukin all like u fukin made shit goin amv contests actin liek ur teh fukin shit fukin sayin i amde this fukin liek if u fukin did fukin makin fukin the fukin fukin fukin fukin - MiyaDV (2014)

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Re: Regarding Future Website Redesign Plans

Post by Diegao » Sun May 17, 2015 5:15 am

I agree with CrackTheSky and MimS, I consider the catalog the strong point of the site, and even if nowadays most editors use Mega or sites like that to host their videos, I still use the A-M-V.org catalog. For many reasons, the main one is that I like the idea of having my personal page with all my videos cataloged.
About the redesign, I can't say anything because I don't know the situation, I don't have any capabilities to help and I don't even have money to make a donation at the moment :shrug:
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Re: Regarding Future Website Redesign Plans

Post by KaientaiAMV » Sun May 17, 2015 6:05 am

A redesign will kill the org. Trust me. New looks and meagre new features ain't gonna motivate me to open up Vegas pro 8.0e (Trial Version).

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Re: Regarding Future Website Redesign Plans

Post by Nya-chan Production » Sun May 17, 2015 7:05 am

CrazyDreamer wrote:Things like identification of problems (with code or function), solutions, and a roadmap with milestones are necessary part of project development and management. If those things are being produced anyway, they can be posted, along with updates on progress when milestones are reached. Heck, you could even post any custom code to GitHub; the non-programmers might not understand any of it, but it will let people see progress being made and the computer scientists and information scientists who hang out here might have constructive suggestions, especially if there's a troublesome bug that needs more eyes. (This also makes it easier to have new people take over parts of the project if necessary.)
I Fight For The Users did this (with GitHub, I mean). But I couldn't write anything on it, since it was mostly Ruby or Python with like five more new frameworks on top of that (Suzy and others) and I wasn't able to learn all of that at the time (and unlike I Fight For The Users, I think almost nobody would be able to work on this scheme in the long term, but that's a personal opinion). And pmuch all of my front end opinions were shot down and I was considered a grumpy meanie trying to hamper the progress. Still, I Fight For The Users did much work on it, I think the most in the years we tried to redo the site.
Pwolf wrote:
CrackTheSky wrote:
Pwolf wrote:Any sort of redesign at this point requires a complete refocus, as GQ stated. Personally, I'd like to see the catalog and video uploads go away. Focus the site on the forum, contests, and social events. Removing video uploads would remove the need for donations and open more options for the site, as far as where it could go without running into legal trouble (advertising at cons?).
I would hate to see this.
let me rephrase that:

Personally, I'd like to see the catalog as it is now and video uploads go away.

I think it can be simplified and would love to see integration for video streaming services in lieu of getting rid of video uploads. There are a lot of services out there and youtube is by far the most popular. We should harness that resource rather then push it away.
I disagree here. Any external service is prone to deleting, filtering, complete disappearing and other things that we can't affect from our side. Unless we want to become a completely text-based catalogue over time (as other services and videos go down), an upload should always be an option, even if secondary. For many new users it's actually the only advantage over the Youtube, Vimeo and others - that we won't delete their videos or accounts no matter what audio or video they use. Our exceptions are still way scarcer than Youtube and there are AMV creators who will rather upload to here or AMVNews instead of shifting pitch and the like.
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Re: Regarding Future Website Redesign Plans

Post by Cenit » Sun May 17, 2015 7:39 am

Pwolf wrote:Personally, I'd like to see the catalog and video uploads go away. Focus the site on the forum, contests, and social events. Removing video uploads would remove the need for donations and open more options for the site, as far as where it could go without running into legal trouble (advertising at cons?).
I do understand that porting the catalog to a new site might be a mess and the biggest reason why the org is moving no where. However in all honesty i don't care about this community. Not at all. The catalog is by far the only reason why i keep coming back or donate. I feel proud in editing/expanding my profil and checking out those of my friends. Walking the same paths my idols did before me. But if the catalog goes i go. Removing it for me would kill the org for good. We all keep joking about how the org is dead for years and in a way it is, but the catalog is THE only good idea still remaining. If you want to trim down the site lose all of the following features:

Local Downloads overview
download queue
My Journal (fuck this shit)
Banners (everything about this is dated - lose the banner contest)
search (simplyfy the search engine - maybe use google - trim this down - it's confusing as fuck)
my favorite amvs should be included in edit profile or removed completely - nobody cares about it or keeps it updated)
opinions given (who cares nobody gives opinions)
interviews
newsletter
org alert log (lose this feature - no alerts for now)
simplify video profile editing (this is basically catalog and therefor very important)
bandwidth usage
no chatrooms link
no journal buddies (lose the journal as a whole - we got facebook now)
no store for now
just a donate button - no donation history
guides (they are outdated an can be easily implemented later - important but not first thing for the redesign)
no contest list for the start.

Basically the org should be the catalog and maybe the forum - nothing more. Develop a script to port the catalog entries in a new data base. Add more features later once you got this one point right. Everything starts with the catalog.

Now about the content of the catalog - let us embed youtube links and maybe vimeo - this is a given. New members will probably want to enter their YT links into the catalog so let em - make it front and center of every new video profile. Losing the local download would be very very sad but i'd agree with that one as long as the rest works fine.

This is all a bunch of work and will likely never be done. But if you think saving the org means turning it into a extended forum, rather just let it die as it is.
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Re: Regarding Future Website Redesign Plans

Post by XStylus » Sun May 17, 2015 12:47 pm

Cenit wrote:Basically the org should be the catalog and maybe the forum - nothing more. Develop a script to port the catalog entries in a new data base. Add more features later once you got this one point right. Everything starts with the catalog.

Now about the content of the catalog - let us embed youtube links and maybe vimeo - this is a given. New members will probably want to enter their YT links into the catalog so let em - make it front and center of every new video profile. Losing the local download would be very very sad but i'd agree with that one as long as the rest works fine.
More or less this. :up:

To me though, the forum is more important (or at least as equally important) as the catalog. If the forum were to ever die, a mess of conventions would be screwed insofar as getting the word out about their AMV contests and such. An overwhelming majority of of submissions to various contests come from people who learned about them through the forums here.
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Re: Regarding Future Website Redesign Plans

Post by Radical_Yue » Sun May 17, 2015 1:11 pm

Since any of the original questions that were being posed are going to be ignored and the discussion seems to have shifted into what the Org should be, I figured it would finally be ok for me to throw in my two cents.


I believe the Org should basically focus on three areas. Like Cenit said, there is a lot there are a lot of features that were fun back in the day but they're totally useless now.

1) Keep the forum as it is. I disagree with Bashar considering I talk to dozens of new and/or younger editors almost daily who all agree that they would have been on the forum a lot earlier if they even knew it was an option. The main page is such a mess of buttons and clickables that it's easy for someone who isn't used to seeing it to get lost in. I can just about promise you that more people would use it, discuss videos, and announce their own if they could even figure out basic functions like how to upload videos.

2) A constantly updating main page like AMVNews. Video highlights of new uploads for those that like the "BestAMVsofAllTime" style of viewing and updates on the site, advertised contests, etc. I would aim for making it almost exactly like the current version of AMVNews, focused on news and how to find the top videos.
This would need to be manned by at least a couple moderators to guarantee constant content. Having one or two people, is not sufficient. I can easily attest that if one person goes down for whatever reason that the area they were in charge of will quickly die since for the most part, no one else will step in.

3) Video uploads/catalogs. I actually disagree with Scott about removing the ability to upload. When you think about it, there is literally no where else on the internet that is safe for AMVs at this time. AMVNews doesn't get them all (not even all of the gems) and Youtube is constantly seeing video take down, account deletions, and videos even dealing with pitched audio or fucked up visuals in order to attempt to hide under the radar from takedown sweeps.
With this portion of it, it would really be best for it to be modeled after Youtube. Simplified uploads, basic profiles with information and links to other videos, and a search ability based off of keywords with the option for filtration. I would go a bit more in depth on the filters with the ability to not only filter by time, relevance, ratings, etc. but also by category of video. The ability to search with anime and audio were nice but keeping the database updated with all of the anime currently in existence is impossible and would require a dedicated team if that was a capability we wanted to keep.
The actual video pages themselves I would model more after AMVNews with focus on streaming but also the ability to download and a comments sections with optional ratings. In the event of Youtube only like CrazyDreamer mentioned, let them embed and leave (which would obviously mean no download link).
The moderators and admins would need additional control to alter and remove video information as needed. As any of the current mods will tell you (transparency!) the system we have right now isn't the best. Unless someone submits for their information to be altered such as title, source, date, etc. there is really no power over entries beyond just flat out deleting them. Unless you bug someone such as dokidoki with real power, there isn't a ton of control over entries submit.


I agree that the community is no doubt one of the biggest draws that we have going on but without something to offer to new members it will eventually die. It's a matter of time now. The Org should aim to be a mix of Youtube and AMVNews (if not evident from the rest of my post) with a larger moderation/admin base that is kept fresh with new faces on a regular basis so if someone is feeling rundown they don't feel like they have to stick around since there is no one else to fill their place.

The administration needs to be more transparent and active in the community. Too often do I have people ask me who owns the website or who is in charge. Yes, there are links at the bottom of the forum but a list of names doesn't really tell you shit about what people actually do.

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