cheap MPEG-2 encoders

User avatar
hackerzc
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2001 4:44 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD
Contact:
Org Profile

Post by hackerzc » Fri Feb 07, 2003 12:50 am

oh the typos, they hurt so much!
John Westbrook
Otakon, Fan Parody Dept. Head

User avatar
madmallard
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2001 6:07 pm
Status: Cracked up quacker, quacked up cracker
Location: Atlanta, GA
Contact:
Org Profile

Post by madmallard » Fri Feb 07, 2003 1:27 am

nightowl-- quu's always looking for simpler, smaller, and cheaper, you know that. ;p

and i hope you didn't include me in that "best video card" whiners club. I'm kinda past that bells and whistles phase, and i'm more concerned with reaching the end without tearing out my hair doing it.

User avatar
Vlad G Pohnert
Joined: Tue Jan 02, 2001 2:29 pm
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Contact:
Org Profile

Post by Vlad G Pohnert » Fri Feb 07, 2003 2:08 am

Yep, the world is a big place and the word "Quality" can mean so much in so many different places. I think in gemeral, I have to somewhat agree that I just can't understand why you need a uncompressed editing card if it's for a hobby like AMVs or for small consumer stuff..

Now in terms of broadcast quality, that's a whole can of worms and I guess it also depends where and for who your working for. I know of a few in places like South America who use pro-consumer cards to make television commercials.

My point is, as I think was pointed out, get what you need and what works for you and don't get so tied down in this codex, compression mumbo jumbo!

Vlad

User avatar
Nightowl
Joined: Tue May 29, 2001 2:54 pm
Contact:
Org Profile

Post by Nightowl » Fri Feb 07, 2003 3:19 am

sixstop - Heh, you're right, I should've remembered the simpler, smaller, and cheaper thing - I figured I had to relate my post to the thread in some way : ) And no, I was pretty much generalizing the "best video card" whiners club - I had no intention of including you in that circle - had absolutely nothing to do with you. I was mostly venting (and backing up my good mentioned name!), as I've found so many people in the community to be very competitive when there really isn't much to compete for... Sometimes I think people are right when they say the AMV community is heading for a Cosplay type disaster. So many butting heads...

Vlad - I'm glad you showed up - we seem to share a very similar philosophy. I don't remember if I said it in post as well (it's very long - I wouldn't read it), but you're right - use what you can. If you've got two milk cartons that happen to process video, by god man, make some art!

This thread has gone a bit off track... When Pat comes around and there's no response to his original question... sorry about that!

Oh, I would like to say that I would hate it if my room was like Lain's! I mean, it's so dirty... the heads on my VCRs would be all messed up!Imagine the dust! IMAGINE THE DUST!!! I'm very proud of my clean, dust free computers. Well, the old PC wasn't exactly dust free... but it wasn't exactly well built either...

What have we told you? Shut up when you're done writing. Just take your fingers away from the keyboard and type "dash N."

Okay.

-N

User avatar
madmallard
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2001 6:07 pm
Status: Cracked up quacker, quacked up cracker
Location: Atlanta, GA
Contact:
Org Profile

Post by madmallard » Fri Feb 07, 2003 3:36 am

what i dont get, what i TRULY don't get is. . .and i thought about this after quu made a video from psx movies and i made one from saturn movies. . .

If your sourcefootage is already being overkilled by the editing system you use, whats the point of upsampling to lossless? (or in our case, higher rez)

i could only think of one reason: any transition you create with a higher rez or upsample will look better. Everything else will look the same. . .


lossless is useless to us. We're not into content creation, we're recycling. At best we're adding filters to liven things up. We're recylcing truly consumer grade materials into something, and uncompressed is just . . .so useless to us in that sense.

I mean, source comes to us only in a couple of ways. 1-dvd, 2-vhs, 3-LD, and 4-(i'm reaching for this) SVHS. (i wont dignify downloads)

what good would lossless be for dvd source? its already been compressed, and in most cases, not very well. I wonder how high the highest bitrate video signal is on an anime disc? you think it even touches the spec limit? this would be the equivalent of dumping a 96kps MP3 to a 96khz wav. A bloated file that looks, or sounds, the same.

and vhs? okay, is some cases the color control can look better than a dvd (but it has to be very poorly planned), but the drop is resolution detail is the obvious handoff. lossless for this is kinda like photgraphing a photograph.

only the last 2, to me anyways, would justify lossless because of their balance of detail and color info. . .and you just dont get that much new stuff on either. you can still get old lds everywhere i'm sure. . . .

umn. . and as far as the lains room bit, dont forget quu has 4 cats now. . . :wink:

User avatar
Vlad G Pohnert
Joined: Tue Jan 02, 2001 2:29 pm
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Contact:
Org Profile

Post by Vlad G Pohnert » Fri Feb 07, 2003 3:40 am

Yea, about this thread Patrick, sorry it seamed to have been steared off course somewhat...But then again Mpeg2 is another can of worms! It sure would be nice if we all could just get along with a very simple codec philosophy...

It would be real nice to capute into Mpeg2 directly via analog. My Matrox card will work with Mpeg2 but of course it is Mpeg2-I frame and still has to be rendered to a final true Mpeg2 version...

Vlad

User avatar
hackerzc
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2001 4:44 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD
Contact:
Org Profile

Post by hackerzc » Fri Feb 07, 2003 3:54 am

Vlad G Pohnert wrote:Yep, the world is a big place and the word "Quality" can mean so much in so many different places. I think in gemeral, I have to somewhat agree that I just can't understand why you need a uncompressed editing card if it's for a hobby like AMVs or for small consumer stuff..

Now in terms of broadcast quality, that's a whole can of worms and I guess it also depends where and for who your working for. I know of a few in places like South America who use pro-consumer cards to make television commercials.

My point is, as I think was pointed out, get what you need and what works for you and don't get so tied down in this codex, compression mumbo jumbo!

Vlad
Good point. I had myself trained to except that I have what I need (everything works great!) then I started getting sucked into the void that is technology. To quote that TV commercial I can't remember the name of "All I know about computers is that I want a better one then everyone else".

Oh by the way Quu, did you ever find out what you were trying to find out?
John Westbrook
Otakon, Fan Parody Dept. Head

User avatar
hackerzc
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2001 4:44 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD
Contact:
Org Profile

Post by hackerzc » Fri Feb 07, 2003 4:15 am

Nightowl wrote: Oh, I would like to say that I would hate it if my room was like Lain's! I mean, it's so dirty... the heads on my VCRs would be all messed up!Imagine the dust! IMAGINE THE DUST!!! I'm very proud of my clean, dust free computers. Well, the old PC wasn't exactly dust free... but it wasn't exactly well built either...
-N
Well dust isn't a problem, but I have cables going everywhere. My Cable into my room wraps around one side of my room to reach my PC for internet, and wraps around the other side and goes over a closet door to get ot my TV. Then I have the same thing for telephone line for my phone and 56K modem (just in-case). Next I have coax, composite, s-video, and god knows what else shooting back and forth between my TV/Entertainment center stuff (really complicated setup, believe me), most of which is attached to my ceiling since it has to get over the door way to my room. Plus the networking cable from by router at my PC desk to my XBOX which is by my TV. Then there are all the wires that the two different areas (my entertainment area and my PC area) need so that everything is each little group works correctly.

I don't like having stuff like this, it just kinda evolved like that aver the years. The majority of my possessions are in a 10x12 foot room. Everything is nice and organized (not as well as I would like it though) but if you compare how my room started out 11 years ago, and where it is now, it's like converting the Wright brothers plain for space travel.

Good new is I might be moving in 1-2 years, so I can start over from scratch then. I can make everything separate stations instead of one big interconnected system. Get a DVD and s/VHS player and all JUST for the PC. Also I will be able to allow room behind my PC desk and entertainment center to actually get behind it all and play with wires when I need to. A luxury I do not have at the present. I'm at the point right now where I have so many wires and things going so many places I honestly don't know what goes to what anymore. On top of it all I have ADD, and that does not help when it comes to having to hook this all up.

You know how to tell that you have two many wires? When you have to start creating new types of adapters for cables, because what you need does not exist. That's when.

My worst fear in the world (aside from loosing everything on my HDD) is having to unhook everything then hook it all back together again. It's that much of a nu-sense.
John Westbrook
Otakon, Fan Parody Dept. Head

User avatar
Ashyukun
Medicinal Leech
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 12:53 pm
Location: KY
Contact:
Org Profile

Post by Ashyukun » Fri Feb 07, 2003 9:23 am

Nightowl wrote:I said GOOD analog capture. That's SDI, kids. -N
*shudder* I looked into what it would cost to put together a system with an SDI interface a little while back- even ignoring the DigiBeta decks it would have cost not too much less than the base model of my car goes for.

Just out of curiousity, what hardware would you get if you were looking to put together a reasonably inexpensive (as much of a contradiction that would be) broadcast quality (SDI/DigiBeta) system? Most of what I was able to find seemed to point to the VT2 being the most reasonable route to go.
Bob 'Ash' Babcock
Electric Leech Productions

User avatar
Quu
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2000 1:20 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA
Contact:
Org Profile

Post by Quu » Fri Feb 07, 2003 11:47 am

I took my question to a different forum.... ^_^

its ok.... I don't want to edit in mpeg.... personally DV is a very good editng format... so is high bitrate MJPEG (what nightowl uses)... that is a different discussion.... though it looks like its the current one ^_^

my question was asked becasue since all i was doing is archiving other people's videos... ie not editing them my self... i was trying to avoid recompressing as much as possible...

going
Analog->MPEG-2 is much prefered to going
Analog-DV/MJPEG->MPEG-2 no matter how good your video capture card is....

of course
Analog->Uncompressed->MPEG-2 is as good as the direct transfer... but takes longer


basically this thread was oroginally there to help you all ^_^
so screw you all hippy chicks (jk)

nah... its ok.... and... my room and house has gotten worse... I have seen NightOwl's rooms (he has two... a computer one and a bedroom)... I am worse.... and I have seen pictures of Vlad's editing room... I am worse...
Lead me not to temptation, for I have deadlines

User avatar
madmallard
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2001 6:07 pm
Status: Cracked up quacker, quacked up cracker
Location: Atlanta, GA
Contact:
Org Profile

Post by madmallard » Fri Feb 07, 2003 1:25 pm

lets not even talk about the kitchen. . .

User avatar
Vlad G Pohnert
Joined: Tue Jan 02, 2001 2:29 pm
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Contact:
Org Profile

Post by Vlad G Pohnert » Fri Feb 07, 2003 1:59 pm

Quu wrote:I took my question to a different forum.... ^_^


going
Analog->MPEG-2 is much prefered to going
Analog-DV/MJPEG->MPEG-2 no matter how good your video capture card is....

of course
Analog->Uncompressed->MPEG-2 is as good as the direct transfer... but takes longer


basically this thread was oroginally there to help you all ^_^
so screw you all hippy chicks (jk)

nah... its ok.... and... my room and house has gotten worse... I have seen NightOwl's rooms (he has two... a computer one and a bedroom)... I am worse.... and I have seen pictures of Vlad's editing room... I am worse...

Ha, my equipment is very clean and organized considering I have 6 systems and tons of editing stuff. I tend to be extreame in that sence and even my file structures and data is very well organized and clean.

In terms of the archiving, I agree I use the Analog-DV-Mpeg2 method as well since it seems to be the fasted and most reliable to date...

Vlad

User avatar
Kai Stromler
Joined: Fri Jul 12, 2002 9:35 am
Location: back in the USSA
Org Profile

Post by Kai Stromler » Fri Feb 07, 2003 2:04 pm

Quu wrote: my question was asked becasue since all i was doing is archiving other people's videos... ie not editing them my self... i was trying to avoid recompressing as much as possible...

going
Analog->MPEG-2 is much prefered to going
Analog-DV/MJPEG->MPEG-2 no matter how good your video capture card is....

of course
Analog->Uncompressed->MPEG-2 is as good as the direct transfer... but takes longer
There is one system that I know of that does this, but it's got some drawbacks.

Despite Nightowl's comments about newer consumer-DV companies, I've been quite satisfied with my Dazzle DVC II-based setup, which is all I've really ever used for editing. It's definitely not pro-level, but it's decent, and for archiving it's probably your best bet. The card captures directly into MPEG2 from composite or S-video at a variety of bitrates, and I don't think I've seen even so much as a single dropped frame, despite my somewhat antiquated motherboard and ever increasing standard bitrates (8000 Kbps now standard).

Here's the problem: the DVC II is no longer offered commercially, and its USB 2.0 based replacement isn't half as mature or reliable. There are some apocryphal issues with dropping of audio synch past 20 minutes of capture (problem with the chipset on the card), but that souldn't be a problem, since you have the option of stopping captures between videos.

I do have a working spare card that I don't precisely need, so fling me an email or PM if you're interested in acquiring it.

--K
Shin Hatsubai is a Premiere-free studio. Insomni-Ack is habitually worthless.
CHOPWORK - abominations of maceration
skywide, armspread : forward, upward
Coelem - Tenebral Presence single now freely available

User avatar
Vlad G Pohnert
Joined: Tue Jan 02, 2001 2:29 pm
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Contact:
Org Profile

Post by Vlad G Pohnert » Fri Feb 07, 2003 3:01 pm

Kai Stromler wrote: There is one system that I know of that does this, but it's got some drawbacks.

Despite Nightowl's comments about newer consumer-DV companies, I've been quite satisfied with my Dazzle DVC II-based setup, which is all I've really ever used for editing. It's definitely not pro-level, but it's decent, and for archiving it's probably your best bet. The card captures directly into MPEG2 from composite or S-video at a variety of bitrates, and I don't think I've seen even so much as a single dropped frame, despite my somewhat antiquated motherboard and ever increasing standard bitrates (8000 Kbps now standard).

--K
How good is the Mpeg2 encoder? SOme encoders I find aren't worth using...

Vlad

User avatar
Quu
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2000 1:20 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA
Contact:
Org Profile

Post by Quu » Fri Feb 07, 2003 3:39 pm

i have found that at 12 megabits... its really hard for an encoder to mess up... and becomes a mathimatical game to find the quality differenaces with MPEG-2

its the mid range bitrates (3-7) that the quality of the encoder comes into play... 8-11 is kind of hard to tell... and above 12 it becomes silly...

anything less than 3 at full 720x480 is just not going to happen well...

but as in all things... there are exceptions...

ligos at 12 still sucks
Lead me not to temptation, for I have deadlines

Locked

Return to “Hardware Discussion”