cheap MPEG-2 encoders

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Quu
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cheap MPEG-2 encoders

Post by Quu » Tue Feb 04, 2003 2:26 pm

has anybody messed with direct Analog->mpeg-2 solutions?

Like
Adpatec's VideOh! DVD/PCI
Sigma Design's Realmagic DVR
Dazzle's DVC 150, DVC-II, or DCS-200
Pinnacle Systems DC1/2000
Canopus DVStorm2
DVD Cut Machine
Others?

I am looking form soemthign ti simply capture analog video dorectly to MPEG-2, and allow me to trim leader and footaer off of that captured file...

I have used the Pinnacle DC1000 and it did it perfectly... but cost alot of money.
Lead me not to temptation, for I have deadlines

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hackerzc
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Re: cheap MPEG-2 encoders

Post by hackerzc » Wed Feb 05, 2003 5:49 am

Quu wrote:has anybody messed with direct Analog->mpeg-2 solutions?

Like
Adpatec's VideOh! DVD/PCI
Sigma Design's Realmagic DVR
Dazzle's DVC 150, DVC-II, or DCS-200
Pinnacle Systems DC1/2000
Canopus DVStorm2
DVD Cut Machine
Others?

I am looking form soemthign ti simply capture analog video dorectly to MPEG-2, and allow me to trim leader and footaer off of that captured file...

I have used the Pinnacle DC1000 and it did it perfectly... but cost alot of money.
I have no clue what you are trying to do but let me ask you a question.
Can those high end Pinnacle cards use VirtualDub for capture and Huffy and stuff? I'm trying to find something better then what I have for my next system. Right now I am using an ATI All in wonder card. I have S-Video, Composite, Coax, all this crap for input and output, and the newer model (9700 Pro) even has component. SO exactly what is the advantage of that card over the ATI? Just curious.
John Westbrook
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Quu
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Post by Quu » Wed Feb 05, 2003 12:12 pm

most high end cards can't use birtualDub to capture... since they don't use video for windows to work in...

and some of them can't even use directX... you must use thier own drivers...
Lead me not to temptation, for I have deadlines

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Post by hackerzc » Wed Feb 05, 2003 5:15 pm

Quu wrote:most high end cards can't use birtualDub to capture... since they don't use video for windows to work in...

and some of them can't even use directX... you must use thier own drivers...
That not good. Cause I need to beable to capture and work with lossless AVI's. And I prefer capturing to ripping becuase it is way faster, and cut's down on time come pre-processing.

Thx.
John Westbrook
Otakon, Fan Parody Dept. Head

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Post by NicholasDWolfwood » Wed Feb 05, 2003 6:44 pm

On the subject of Pinnacle's cards, they capture into their own propreitary codec. For example, I believe the DC1000 captures into loseless MJPEG or DV, something like that. Quu, what do they capture in?
Image

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Post by Quu » Wed Feb 05, 2003 7:09 pm

depends on the card...
DC10+ - Stanrdard MJPEG ( not SLI like the targa 1/2000)
DV500 - DV... which is compatible with the DirectX8.1 dv codec
DC1/2000 - propriotary MPEG-2 solution. it can also read DVDs if done right
Targa3000 - uncompressed

of the compressed ones... the dc1000 is the best... it uses MPEG-2 to its full extent.... and has a 4:2:2 colour space when useing IPP... can edit IBBP video (dvd type) also

even though all the cards use a proprotary codec... the codec in all except the dc1000 are compatible with other things... and if you edit in IBBP mode on the dc1000 then its fully compatible with everything... since its a pure mpeg-2 video stream
Lead me not to temptation, for I have deadlines

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Post by Quu » Wed Feb 05, 2003 7:10 pm

if you want cheap and lossless... get a PCI ATI all in wonder 128

then use virtualdub to capture
hackerzc wrote:
Quu wrote:most high end cards can't use birtualDub to capture... since they don't use video for windows to work in...

and some of them can't even use directX... you must use thier own drivers...
That not good. Cause I need to beable to capture and work with lossless AVI's. And I prefer capturing to ripping becuase it is way faster, and cut's down on time come pre-processing.

Thx.
Lead me not to temptation, for I have deadlines

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Post by hackerzc » Thu Feb 06, 2003 2:25 am

Quu wrote:if you want cheap and lossless... get a PCI ATI all in wonder 128

then use virtualdub to capture
Well I'm already using somethign way better then that now. AGP4x ATI All in wonder Radeon 7500. And untill something better comes along, I plan on getting the 9700 Pro (has twice the DDR ram, supports 8xAGP and has component output) for my next system.

Price is not an issue. I'll pay $2000 for a card if it will do what I want. And what I want is a lossless capture format that I can use in premiere.

MPEG sucks for editing. It's lossy, and it takes more PC resources to use it (because of decoding and encoding while editing).
John Westbrook
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Quu
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Post by Quu » Thu Feb 06, 2003 11:28 am

Please be carefull with your generalizations.... ^_^

MPEG-2 is an incredibly flexible standard... and can scale to suport many things. MPEG can acheave a higher quality than DV. yess its lossy, and takes alot of processor power... but that is why companies make dedicated hardware to handle it... please be more carefull before you sayit sucks for somethingg... with out knowing its full ability... do not think a DVd is the pinnacle of MPEG-2... its actuallythe lowest quality implimentation of it.

if you want a lossless capture card, that works with premiere and kicks much ass... then simply buy a Targa 3000 for $5k.... not only it is an uncmopressed codec based card... it is also a real time card... and you can mix and match dv footage and uncmopressed footage.... and it works nativly with premiere....

if you trully are willign to pay anything.... then there is no reason you should not have a Targa 3000 based system...

the reason i had suggested the AIW 128 pci version... is that so you could put a gamign card in the AGP slot... and keep the AIW in the pci. this allows you to upgrade yoru video with out changin your capturing...
hackerzc wrote:
Quu wrote:if you want cheap and lossless... get a PCI ATI all in wonder 128

then use virtualdub to capture
Well I'm already using somethign way better then that now. AGP4x ATI All in wonder Radeon 7500. And untill something better comes along, I plan on getting the 9700 Pro (has twice the DDR ram, supports 8xAGP and has component output) for my next system.

Price is not an issue. I'll pay $2000 for a card if it will do what I want. And what I want is a lossless capture format that I can use in premiere.

MPEG sucks for editing. It's lossy, and it takes more PC resources to use it (because of decoding and encoding while editing).
Lead me not to temptation, for I have deadlines

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Post by hackerzc » Thu Feb 06, 2003 7:39 pm

Quu wrote: Blah Blah Blah Blah, MPEG-2 if best, blah blah blah, Targa 3000!
Targa 3000?

oooohhhhh aaaaaahhhhhhhh

Freaking A! I guess instead of getting the Hummer H2, I'll get this.

(No I'm not rich. I just have $500 a month that does nothing. So this will give me something to save for) In two years or so when I am ready for a new system, the price will probily be lower also!)
John Westbrook
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madmallard
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Post by madmallard » Thu Feb 06, 2003 10:07 pm

hey quu. . .lets take pictures of his bedroom and your house and see whos is more "Lain-like." :wink:

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Post by iserlohn » Thu Feb 06, 2003 10:14 pm

Ummm....I recall a certain mac-based card that cost less than $3G and could kick the ass of most MPEG-2 boards, so do your research properly. MPEG-2 is nice because you can get good quality at better sizes than DV, but if you want to use bitrates at the level you're implying (the 45Mbit level), it may be worth going with DV instead.

Also, I agree with the poster above. MPEG-2 is *not* an editing format. It's for broadcasting, DVD, etc. Most codecs with an IPB frame structure are that way. Almost all true highend editing is done either uncompressed or in DV and then converted to MPEG-2 at the last step. Want proof? Find me a digital video system (tape based) that uses MPEG-2. You won't. DV, D2, D9, etc. are all their own digital setup. None of them are MPEG-2 based.

So what is my advice to you? Get a mac system with some big fast SCSI drives and have Nightowl point you to the capture board of love.
"I'm recording an album tonight. Funny material and laughter will be dubbed in later."
--Bill Hicks

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Post by madmallard » Thu Feb 06, 2003 10:16 pm

oh yeah, you said ripping takes too much time?, the Targa3k is not only uncompressed, but also has hardware compression of DV and Mpeg-2.

you could edit in uncompressed or in mpeg-2 and the card wouldn't care. It would be realtime either way. no rendering for the cpu. just strip the disk, and capture from the vcr. use both at once.

but you said you wanted to use virtual dub, so Quu's original advice stands as your best bet.

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Post by Nightowl » Fri Feb 07, 2003 12:09 am

I can't answer the question, but I feel I have to say something since my name was mentioned : ) Besides, one of the Mac editing brethren needs to respond.

And please keep in mind: This is not meant to offend anyone. It's more like a venting of extreme anger I've kept pent up for awhile - i.e. me being tired of being told I don't know shit about hardware when I've been doing this for quite awhile.

That, and I'm pretentious.

The term "lossless compression" is, to me, one of the funniest things I've heard in awhile. It's one of those trendy video terms that means absolute bunk in the real world. If you don't find it amusing, just think about it for a few minutes. This is why, if you want lossless video, you go with an uncompressed card. If you can't work in uncompressed video, you can't work in lossless. These are the simple facts of broadcast quality video - no matter how many stats a company releases, they are just that - stats. We can all use our eyes. If the image quality doesn't look good, it simply doesn't look good. Professionals don't edit in MPEG-2 because it's still quite unstable, and hasn't achieved the quality of uncompressed video.

Most of the newer companies that make video cards these days don't seem to know the basic fundamentals of video. They have their little spec charts and sheets explaining why their card is great and lossless compression and all that crap. Just keep this in mind - most of these cards are prosumer. They'll get the job done. They're fine for AMV creators because we aren't actually going to be broadcasting any of this stuff. Sad but true, I know. Yes, every once in awhile someone gets it screened in Holland or something, but it's very rare.

Why am I blabbing on about all this? Because every ten seconds some kid is talking to me about how his/her card is so much better than mine because he/she was told it is. There are maybe ten people on this forum who truly know their shit about video and could work in it professionally. I get really tired of being mocked due to specs which don't make a damn bit of difference in the first place.

Of course, we all get what we can afford. So here's my advice: DV and MPEG-2 are both very good for low-level, prosumer output. DV is good for editing simply because it's readily available and cheap as dirt. But a good analog capture card can still get a lot better quality. I said GOOD analog capture. That's SDI, kids. If you're cutting in MPEG-2 or DV and you try to start something with someone because they have an uncompressed SDI system, walk away. They'll get all pissy because you have no idea what you're talking about. You hear me?

Oh, but there was a topic...

MPEG-2 is a standard - it's pretty standard for final compression out to lower forms of media for fast, cheap distribution - not an editing format. I rather dislike MPEG-2, if you all couldn't tell.

The Targa3000 is good and all... but not great. In fact, it's rather pricey for waht it can do. There are much better cards out there - but for AMV editing, it doesn't really matter, because it's totally unnecessary.

It's true that if all you're copying from are DVDs then the best quality of compression you'll be getting is MPEG-2 anyway. What's good about analog capture is it can filter out most of the crap and give your project a much nicer picture. If you have component in with a SCSI RAID on a high end capture card, it could make dogs playing poker look like the Mona Lisa, as the saying goes.

Pat originally had a question... Pat, since you're outputting in MPEG-2 for convention presentation and you already have that equipment, why do you want something new? Are you going for something different?

See? I DID address the original post! It took like nine paragraphs, but I did it! This is why I don't post much. After I post this drivvle I'll get one of three responses (or lack thereof): I'll be ignored, I'll be flamed, or I'll be laughed at.

Screw it, I'm tired of typing.

-N

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Post by hackerzc » Fri Feb 07, 2003 12:49 am

sixstop wrote:oh yeah, you said ripping takes too much time?, the Targa3k is not only uncompressed, but also has hardware compression of DV and Mpeg-2.

you could edit in uncompressed or in mpeg-2 and the card wouldn't care. It would be realtime either way. no rendering for the cpu. just strip the disk, and capture from the vcr. use both at once.

but you said you wanted to use virtual dub, so Quu's original advice stands as your best bet.
When did this become a topic about helping me? I've just been saying what I like, use, and want.

As for the Targa 3K, I think I may have gone temporarily insane at the thought of being about to use such technological goodness. I could by a cat girl slave for $5K!!! Just keep her high on pocky and she won't mind =^)
John Westbrook
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