Japanese DVD vs. Japanese BD Help

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Kazemon15
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Japanese DVD vs. Japanese BD Help

Postby Kazemon15 » Sat Mar 03, 2018 8:56 pm

Hello, not sure where to post this. Here or in editing programs.
I decided to make this comparing my Reborn DVDs and BDs that I bought.

Overall, the colors are deeper, and quality is better. However, the deeper colors means the darker scenes are also darker...and causes some details to be lost, like Levi blending in to the clouds, Yamamoto's background disappearing and the shadows on Hibari's hair.

I wonder if I can use brightening feature in adobe? Does anyone know if that will work?


https://www.facebook.com/erin.nguyen.96 ... 300864669/

Also, logo cuz I used trial version. Im gonna get the non-trail version soon.

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Re: Japanese DVD vs. Japanese BD Help

Postby Mol » Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:14 am

mhm you can try playing around with colors i guess, but some stuff is pretty much straight black so yea :shrug:
Still better than that MMO.
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Re: Japanese DVD vs. Japanese BD Help

Postby mirkosp » Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:27 pm

Looks to me like a levels mistake. Like if a PC level video was played as TV level, and thus had all the 0-15 and 236-255 luma info clipped to pure black and pure white (and the contrast essentially increased).

Perhaps try getting smoothadjust: https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=154971
And then in avisynth:

Code: Select all

smoothlevels(preset="pc2tv")

And see if that gets the BD to look like the DVD.

I'm not sure how you ripped the video out of the BD, but if you did no recompression yet, and they didn't royally screw up the mastering, the info should still be there. If you DID do some sort of recompression while ripping, then perhaps that's where the levels mistake was introduced?

Also, I don't really know if Reborn is HD? It started in 2006, which was kind of an early adopter era for HD on TV anime, but perhaps it switched from SD to HD during the series, considering it ended in 2010, after all...
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Re: Japanese DVD vs. Japanese BD Help

Postby Kazemon15 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:06 am

mirkosp wrote:Looks to me like a levels mistake. Like if a PC level video was played as TV level, and thus had all the 0-15 and 236-255 luma info clipped to pure black and pure white (and the contrast essentially increased).

Perhaps try getting smoothadjust: https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=154971
And then in avisynth:

Code: Select all

smoothlevels(preset="pc2tv")

And see if that gets the BD to look like the DVD.

I'm not sure how you ripped the video out of the BD, but if you did no recompression yet, and they didn't royally screw up the mastering, the info should still be there. If you DID do some sort of recompression while ripping, then perhaps that's where the levels mistake was introduced?

Also, I don't really know if Reborn is HD? It started in 2006, which was kind of an early adopter era for HD on TV anime, but perhaps it switched from SD to HD during the series, considering it ended in 2010, after all...


Thanks, I will try that.

I actually didnt compress much, I ripped it with DVDfab in mp4 format, but i also tested in m2ts format as well. I also double checked playing on my computer with a player straight from the BD, and it still looked the same, with the same darkness. Thankfully, most of the series doesnt look as bad as the opening, but there are a few details in the actual ep itself where details are lost because it's just too dark.

Yeah Im not sure if it went HD or not, but I know it went full screen for 101 episodes and the rest of the series (101-203), became widescreen.

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Re: Japanese DVD vs. Japanese BD Help

Postby mirkosp » Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:27 pm

There's a high chance they switched to HD from episode 101 onwards, then, but it's likely just an upscale before that. You could potentially get a better video from the DVDs depending on how the upscale for the BD was done.

As for the levels, the recompression might have hurt (I wouldn't trust dvdfab's re-encodes).
If you can work straight from m2ts for this purpose, it'd be safer.
Try also posting a screenshot from a scene that apparently lost details using the code:

Code: Select all

histogram("levels")

Without smoothlevels for the time being. If there's detail in the PC range that's getting cut out, it should show in yellow. If it shows everything is TV range, then they might have increased the contrast in some other way and killed the detail beyond repair.

Also try to post the same screenshot with the same code from the DVD, for comparison.
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Re: Japanese DVD vs. Japanese BD Help

Postby Kazemon15 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:34 pm

mirkosp wrote:There's a high chance they switched to HD from episode 101 onwards, then, but it's likely just an upscale before that. You could potentially get a better video from the DVDs depending on how the upscale for the BD was done.

As for the levels, the recompression might have hurt (I wouldn't trust dvdfab's re-encodes).
If you can work straight from m2ts for this purpose, it'd be safer.
Try also posting a screenshot from a scene that apparently lost details using the code:

Code: Select all

histogram("levels")

Without smoothlevels for the time being. If there's detail in the PC range that's getting cut out, it should show in yellow. If it shows everything is TV range, then they might have increased the contrast in some other way and killed the detail beyond repair.

Also try to post the same screenshot with the same code from the DVD, for comparison.


Okay, I tried WinX Bluray ripper and it seems to be a bit better than DVDfab.

Here is the screenshot comparisons

DVD:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/rqd09uz06s1eg ... 4.png?dl=0

Blu-ray:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/lzwcihc8e93cm ... 6.png?dl=0

I used the code you gave me and this was the result, not sure what it means, though lol. Thanks for helping, btw!

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Re: Japanese DVD vs. Japanese BD Help

Postby mirkosp » Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:58 am

Bloody hell!
Yeah that's crazy, but if the smoothlevels didn't fix this, it likely means detail was killed (that's what it looks like from the histogram, at least).

I'm not sure how well the guides cover this fact, but basically pretty much any YUV content made for TV/home video/streaming/cinema is meant to be played back while keeping in mind its actual range of values is 16-235 for luma and 16-240 for chroma.
However monitors we commonly use are RGB and use the full 0-255 scale, so the YUV values get stretched to that in playback.
If the YUV values don't get stretched in playback, you'll get a "washed out" look, as the blacks are grey, and the whites are a bit darker than they should as well (and all the in-between values have lower contrast as a result).

Sometimes there are encoding errors, and so the full 0-255 (so called "PC") range is used instead of the limited 16-235/240 (so called "TV") range.

The things you see on the right there are histograms that show what pixel values you mostly have in the image. The top, black rectangle is for the luma, and the brown areas are the PC range areas. If the entirety of the histogram is in TV range, you'll see a fully white distribution of pixels, as the DVD screenshot clearly shows.
However, the BD screenshot shows a very big yellow line. Yellow values are in PC range, and this shouldn't normally happen. However, since the line is full vertical around the 16 mark, they likely simply increased the contrast in some other way and the details are gone, otherwise there would be a more even distribution along the whole histogram, both in white and in yellow areas.

If you try to do:

Code: Select all

smoothlevels(preset="tv2pc")
histogram("levels")

on the DVD source, you'll see how the histogram would have looked if the BD source was encoded in PC range (and thus could have been fixed).

Unfortunately, based on the histogram shown, this bd seems beyond repair.

My last suggestion would be to try to use makemkv to rip the BD: https://www.makemkv.com/
It's generally my go-to solution if I happen to need to rip BDs (I never tried winx bluray so I don't know how reliable it is), and I know it wouldn't introduce mistakes on its own. If winx is re-encoding, it might have applied a limiter, so values that should be 0-16 were all clipped to 16, but are actually present in the BD itself. If the issue is still there, and the histogram looks identical, there really is no hope: using the DVD would be your best, if not only, bet.
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Re: Japanese DVD vs. Japanese BD Help

Postby Kazemon15 » Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:03 pm

Ohh I see. I get it now. That makes sense.

I tried again with both the WinX rip and a MakeMKV rip and here was the result using this code for both:

Code: Select all

tfm()
smoothlevels(preset="tv2pc")
histogram("levels")
LanczosResize(1280,720)


WinX:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/332ir4f2pepvy ... 1.png?dl=0

MakeMKV:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/oai32zsa4wwor ... 6.png?dl=0

Seems exactly the same.

Looks like I have to use DVD for the darker scenes and BDs for the lighter ones.

How can I upscale the DVD version to make it better quality to match the BDs?

I also have a question, should I even use the BDs? Normally BDs are supposed to be better quality, especially the Japanese ones, but here it seems like a mixed case. In the lighter scenes, the footage seems fine, except for characters with black hair. The shadowing on their hair detail is lost, but that isnt that big of a deal.

Thanks for the help.

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Re: Japanese DVD vs. Japanese BD Help

Postby Kazemon15 » Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:25 pm

Here is what I mean with a DVD and BD comparison both ripped in MakeMKV

DVD:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/1z6zts44nexpx ... 1.png?dl=0
BD:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/etzgj3k2pv4v7 ... 7.png?dl=0

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Re: Japanese DVD vs. Japanese BD Help

Postby Kazemon15 » Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:53 pm

I wanted to check if this had the same problem with the widescreen footage for both for the darker scenes...here is the result, using the same code above for DVD and BD.

DVD:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/dd5rd77gffd89 ... 8.png?dl=0
BD:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/qova0druu8lzz ... 7.png?dl=0

Seems like they just really messed up the levels on the BDs. This makes me sad. =/

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Re: Japanese DVD vs. Japanese BD Help

Postby mirkosp » Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:17 pm

I think I might have confused you a bit about what I wanted you to check with those codes, but we still got a proof that the BD is royally screwed up beyond repair.

As for upscaling suggestions...

Ideally I would be suggesting SRGAN for any and all upscale needs, but current implementations are still exceedingly slow and need to be perfected, so it's not a feasible approach.

So, scratching that, there's the chance that waifu2x could actually work well.

As for more "traditional" approaches... it's not going to be exactly fast to run, but eedi3_rpow2 is your best bet at getting something actually somewhat sharp when upscaling in somewhat decent times. If it's introducing too many artefacts, then nnedi3_rpow2 is a safer and faster approach albeit blurrier.

So I'd advise trying waifu2x first, then if it's too slow eedi3_rpow2, and if that has too many artefacts nnedi3_rpow2.
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Re: Japanese DVD vs. Japanese BD Help

Postby Kazemon15 » Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:25 pm

Okay, thanks so much for the help!

When I start editing this series again, I'll try both of those and see which one works for me.

I guess these BDs are now just expensive paperweights...lol. At least we figured out the problem before I ripped the entire series. I can just watch the creditless stuff on my PS4 to make them of...some use. And just admire the box art, I guess.


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