Benefit of 60fps vs. ~24/30?

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DopplerDo
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Benefit of 60fps vs. ~24/30?

Post by DopplerDo » Thu May 04, 2017 9:16 pm

I have noticed more and more amvs in 60fps and MrNosec's "Numinous" (https://youtu.be/aht9ZSwpMCk?list=PLOXU ... HGsfKojW1U) makes me feel like I am missing out on huge advantages, but I cannot concretely understand what they may be.

What makes 60fps so special? What does it enable editors to do? Is it all about smooth zooms or is there more to it?

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Re: Benefit of 60fps vs. ~24/30?

Post by Kireblue » Fri May 05, 2017 12:49 am

personally, I don't feel that rendering out at 60 has any benefit unless you're doing a enormous amount of effects and footage manipulation. This can cause the effects to look smother, and so that's why you often see it in videos like Numinous

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Re: Benefit of 60fps vs. ~24/30?

Post by Kionon » Fri May 05, 2017 3:38 am

60FPS looks better if you do speed adjustments, in my opinion. That's about it.
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Re: Benefit of 60fps vs. ~24/30?

Post by Mol » Fri May 05, 2017 2:35 pm

It has some disadvantages too (will need to spend extra time for scenes) Imo sometimes it adds to vid but also it fails. I guess like with any effect :P Mby it's good when there is a lot of cuts too.
Still better than that MMO.
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Re: Benefit of 60fps vs. ~24/30?

Post by MrNosec » Sat May 06, 2017 10:06 am

Mainly for smoother speed ramps and changing velocity at will without losing any frames, being able to make very small changes to the speed with time-remapping like the ones at 45 seconds into the video would be impossible if you're only using the frames provided by the movie with no interpolation involved. It just opens up new sync possibilities if you're willing to put up with the cons (and because it looks kinda sweet too).
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Re: Benefit of 60fps vs. ~24/30?

Post by DopplerDo » Sat May 06, 2017 11:25 am

Thanks for all the straight-forward replies, and the direct reply from MrNosec -- really appreciated. Can anyone go into a little more detail about what these disadvantages are? Is it only what Mol mentioned: that you will need to spend extra time editing?

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Re: Benefit of 60fps vs. ~24/30?

Post by MrNosec » Sat May 06, 2017 7:30 pm

I could explain it here but I think this guide written by lolligerjoj would be way more helpful in the long run https://lolligerjoj.wordpress.com/2016/ ... g-twixtor/ check out chapters 0, 1 and 4.3 in particular, regarding what Mol said he probably meant a whole lot of this http://imgur.com/a/h3Adc which are simply guides to help twixtor figure out what to do in the scene, which get's rid of unwanted warping.
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Re: Benefit of 60fps vs. ~24/30?

Post by DopplerDo » Tue May 09, 2017 1:06 am

Thanks, MrNosec! That guide is definitely not for the faint of heart. I've spent a good part of Sunday and Monday digging into the guide and AE in general, since it's not a strong suit of mine. I hope to have a better (and much more cynical :p) view of what Twixtor can do in the world of AMVs. Thanks again for letting me know that this rabbit hole exists!

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Re: Benefit of 60fps vs. ~24/30?

Post by mirkosp » Fri May 12, 2017 10:53 am

MrNosec wrote:I could explain it here but I think this guide written by lolligerjoj would be way more helpful in the long run https://lolligerjoj.wordpress.com/2016/ ... g-twixtor/ check out chapters 0, 1 and 4.3 in particular, regarding what Mol said he probably meant a whole lot of this http://imgur.com/a/h3Adc which are simply guides to help twixtor figure out what to do in the scene, which get's rid of unwanted warping.
Checked out the guide, but this one statement amused me:
I have yet to encounter a single anime that is natively rendered at a different framerate (disregarding weird encodes on the internet).
Kids these days and their HD sources...
Hanbun no Tsuki ga Noboru Sora is 30000/1001 all the way through, to give a straightforward example. But that's weird on its own. Early digital sources are most commonly a mix of 3:2 pulldown with pattern changes and sometimes 60i effects/animations overlayed or otherwise mixed in.

Nowadays, since BDs are generally 24000/1001, that's what we usually get (with exceptions occurring every so often, mostly in kids shows meant mostly for tv broadcast), but digging into late 90s and early 00s sources means having to deal with pattern changes, VFR, and so on rather commonly.
There's also the fact that poor telecine quality in some old sources means that there aren't clean masters in existence.

Really, anime is a can of worms when it comes to framerates, and not just for the animation framerate vs. footage framerate issue, but at a more basic level. I've had to resort to motion interpolation in a quite a few occasions in order to avoid jerky motion in a normal playback situation, simply because the original source had different framerates mixed together and that was the only way to get the best output, barring doing a bobbed section in a vfr encode, which would still result in slightly jerky motion on the content that went through the pulldown, plus having it look less detailed than it could.

Now, taking all this into consideration, as lolli's excellent guide explains well, not all scenes are created equal, so you'll often find that a scene you might want to use simply doesn't get interpolated. But even scenes that can get interpolated will often look "weird", because twixtor's approach to interpolation just isn't what hand-drawn animation's sense of movement boils down to.
There currently is no algorithm in existence that can do this with a more traditional animation style, otherwise animations studios wouldn't need to pay inbetweeners to draw the tweens. The closest there is to this is animation done with Adobe Animate, but it's an entirely different style of animation altogether.

You also need to consider film look when you decide to go for 60fps or not. Despite the existence of clear advantages in higher framerates, we have been trained to film look far too much to ignore it. It's why The Hobbit's HFR was criticised by many and also why it didn't catch on, unlike 3D.
Depending on the genre of video you are editing, and really the kind of editing you want to do and feelings you want to evoke, the smoother look of 60fps will actually be detrimental to the overall experience.

It all means that when you edit an AMV you'll have to ask yourself: "is it more important to use this exact scene and have it look good for my amv, or is it more important to have the amv look smooth, at the expense of scene selection and potentially natural look in motion?"

Approaching 60fps isn't as simple as setting a higher fps value in the NLE, and lolli's guide shows this, nor is it as simple as stating "bigger is better," since it's not inherently true.
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Re: Benefit of 60fps vs. ~24/30?

Post by DopplerDo » Mon May 15, 2017 11:02 pm

mirkosp wrote: You also need to consider film look when you decide to go for 60fps or not. Despite the existence of clear advantages in higher framerates, we have been trained to film look far too much to ignore it.
This is a great new point (as well as your others!) and really got me scratching the ol' chin. I really wish that studios would natively animate in 60fps in the first place, especially considering the money some of the big titles are raking in. I realize it would be jarring to see Naruto, for example, suddenly in smooth 60fps, but I would kill to see newer titles in 60fps where appropriate.

Are there any anime titles that come to mind that are originally made at a higher framerate, 60 or otherwise?

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Re: Benefit of 60fps vs. ~24/30?

Post by mirkosp » Tue May 16, 2017 3:26 pm

Well, late 90s/early 00s sources mix in all kinds of different things all the time. I'll use Death Note as an example, since it's a popular source.
It was originally animated at 24000/1001 (footage framerate, actual animation framerate is mostly lower, of course). But then, like it's usual for sources of that time period, the editing was done at 60i. So there are some scenes which are legit 60i because it's not possible to go back to a clean progressive stream, as all fields have some unique motion stored. The most obvious example in this is its second ending, if you have the DVD release. There are many overlays between scenes with different patterns, and the camera shake when the elevator is rising has been done at actual 60i.

There are many other examples, but you'll find that the actual 60i content is mostly just in the camera works or in the effects (pans, zooms, shakes, overlayed CGI). Even Cowboy Bebop has 60i CG scenes mixed in with an otherwise clean 3:2 pulldown.

The thing is, there isn't much value in this higher framerate. The extra motion you're getting isn't significant, as what really matters to us is the actual framerate of the hand drawn content. And that's generally animated at a lower framerate than even 24000/1001 to begin with.
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Re: Benefit of 60fps vs. ~24/30?

Post by DopplerDo » Tue May 16, 2017 4:47 pm

This is all starting to make complete sense. I just have two questions left for you, mirkosp: 1) how in the heck are you so informed about framerate details -- how did you even come to acquire that knowledge (esp. b/c I am at the beginning of that road), and 2) how in the heck did you get lucky enough to end up in or grow up in Gallarate!?

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Re: Benefit of 60fps vs. ~24/30?

Post by mirkosp » Wed May 17, 2017 12:51 pm

1) Time and patience. Internet has many informations around if you google hard enough (the org's own avtech, wikipedia, and doom9 are good places to start). Most things however you'll learn the hard way, by getting your hand on enough varied sources and trying to understand just what is going on to know what's the better solution to solve the issues at hand. It all paid off for me since I'm currently doing this for a living, at least.
2) Well, my parents live there, but anything I learned about encoding was online (and in English), so my country didn't make much of a difference from that perspective!
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