2008 Viewers' Choice Awards [OVER!]

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Postby godix » Fri Jan 18, 2008 6:29 am

Know what the difference between a hell 4 type of MEP and a two person collab is? Hell 4 can have up to 62 people voting for themselves while the other thing has at most two people voting for themselves. In the finals I doubt that's much of an issue but in the initial stages I suspect there's few enough votes all told that this can really make a difference. I do remember several years ago when four of the five dance finalists were MEPs.

Of course there's also the visibility issue. A MEP like hell 4 or ayumix gets almost daily exposure on the forums for months on end while it's being put together and has most members pimping it when it's released. So it's just a lot more likely that forumites have heard of a large MEP than a two man collab even if the two man thing is better. I suspect forumites make up most of the initial stage of voting and I know for a fact being suggested in the VCA forum, even multiple times, doesn't lead to people watching a video. So that seems to also give a bias towards large scale MEPs and another reason to separate large meps from smaller projects.

So I entirely disagree with TJ's idea of abolishing the MEP category altogether and I can see the value of separating large MEPs from small collabs. As an alternative we could just make it so a person can't vote for themselves which would largely negate part of this. I honestly don't know why people can vote for themselves anyway, I know of no other serious contest where that's acceptable practice. Well, besides the US Presidential elections but those are a joke anyway.
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Postby jasper-isis » Fri Jan 18, 2008 1:45 pm

I understand the reasons for wanting a separate category and I understand the distinctions between the two, but the problem remains that we don't have a foolproof way of implementing this within the database right now. Unless somebody thinks of a clever way of translating these intentions into code, the only way of doing this right now would be for TJ and I to watch ALL of the qualifying collabs and manually separate the MEPs from the group projects. Given the amount of time that we're already putting into the contest this year, I really don't think this is something we can also take on. (Not to mention that it would pretty much go against the purpose of the VCA.)

Unless accompanied by a solid way of executing it, an idea is just an idea. We don't want to be like "Nope, not gonna happen, move along" as AtomX/Brad put it. We want to help out the site and its members as best as we can, so we'll think about the ideas critically and post our own opinions and argue with you guys all day long about the merits of the idea, sure. But at this point in time, with the nominations round starting in three days, what you need to do is bring us is a workable plan, not just an idea by itself.
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Postby Brad » Fri Jan 18, 2008 2:02 pm

I completely understand your guys' viewpoint and pretty much figured that thats how it'd end up, because as I said, I know that defining a collab as simply x number of editors IS a rather crude and informal way of doing it, but I was mainly suggesting it as a starting point. I think the only fullproof way to do it would be to add another category checkbox for video profiles called "Multi-Editor Project" that would be defined for the bigger MEPs. There could easily be some kind of floating tool-tip for the checkbox to actually give people some insight as to what loosely defines what an MEP is (ie; how it differs from a video that simply has more than one editor as a collaborator, as we've stated is typically quite a different type of video).

Obviously, what I'm suggesting is pretty late in the game to be implemented for these awards, but it's something I'd like to see maybe for next year. It'd make it easier for new members of the site to find different MEPs that they may have never heard of before.

And TJ, as far as the number of collabs this year go, I don't know the exact number either, but I bet if that 2-4 filter was put in place, we'd be able to see quite a decent number.. Or a miniscule number, who knows :P
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Postby dwchang » Fri Jan 18, 2008 3:24 pm

Otohiko wrote:I hate to stir up the controversy over this, but wouldn't the two categories suggested by Ileia be pandering a little bit too much to the .org's "inner circle"?

Not to be too cynical, but I think both those categories actually mean something to a fairly narrow group of people, and against the background of people whining about cliques and all - perhaps it would be better to stick to the more general categories for now. To the average AMV viewer and even editor, I somehow don't think those two categories will appeal very much and will probably raise some of the old whining on the social dynamics of the .org again.

On the other hand, one nice thing about possibly having these categories is that it possibly might actually encourage people to collaborate more. Which in my view, would be a good thing. But somehow I don't think the wider community is ready for that sort of subtle hint yet and might take it the wrong way...


Said it far better than I could've so I'll just quote you...
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Postby ssgwnbtd » Fri Jan 18, 2008 3:58 pm

As the co-founder of the greatest MEP in the history of video, I have something to say. I agree that the participants in an MEP should not be allowed to vote for their MEP. I also think that short duration video collaborations made by 2 or 3 people should not be allowed in the MEP category of the VCAs. They are not in the spirit of multi-editor, which to me is "let's get a lot of people together and make something huge". This naturally leads me to the idea of removing short duration videos (less than 7 minutes) with less than 4 editors from the MEP category. I do not think there needs to be a category for short collaborations. I also think that there doesn't need to be an MEP category as much as a Best Video in an MEP category. The logistics of that are too difficult however, with the current database not linking video sources to songs to editors within a large video project.
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Postby mexicanjunior » Fri Jan 18, 2008 3:59 pm

ssgwnbtd wrote:As the co-founder of the greatest MEP in the history of video


LOL.... :lol:
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Postby Athena » Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:11 pm

ssgwnbtd wrote:I do not think there needs to be a category for short collaborations.


I vehemently disagree. If you're going to kick them out of MEPs, I'm all for that, but a skill set is required for two or more editors to sit down together and produce a coherent whole. The thought process is different than a one editor production. The execution is different. I think it is unfair to group one editor productions and multi-editor one track productions together.
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Postby Greggus1 » Fri Jan 18, 2008 5:03 pm

Greggus1 wrote:
Greggus1 wrote:I think the solution to this whole discussion would be have all 2-4 people collaborations be eligible for all awards. I know this isn't as good as having their own category, but it'd be a start.

Also, MEPs being eligible for Video Of The Year would be nice.

Fixed, sorry. I'm tired.

I'm a moron. Could a mod just delete my first 2 posts please?
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Postby Knowname » Fri Jan 18, 2008 5:09 pm

Ileia wrote:Even though there are no category suggestions this year, I'm going to suggest one that I think is a good idea anyway:

Best Studio of the Year

The requirements, of course, are that there are more than one member. It's pretty self-explanatory, I mean, there are certainly some studios that produced a huge amount of awesome videos (think of all the videos that will be nominated in the VCAs this year from VNS :O) and I think they deserve some recognition!

There are a few studios where there might be one member who kind of overshadows the others, but not many.

Also:

Best Duo

There are some people who collaborated on a video, but there were only two collaborators, so this doesn't really count as a single effort, or as a mulit-editor project.


brilliant lol, something else I can boycot. oh wait, I don't like best anything so... btw making this donator only would just be HORRENDOUS. Since the whole purpose of VCAs is for the public to vote. JCAs should be donator only then at least it will have a purpose. Just post the results... and if so before the VCAs, I just feel that'd be more usefull. Or of coarse we can all make our lists of suggestions.
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Postby Knowname » Fri Jan 18, 2008 5:28 pm

jasper-isis wrote:The other thing that I have to stress is that we can't promise certain things because we're not the ones who have to potentially work our butts off to program these changes. It might be easy or difficult, but either way I can't just say "sure thing, let's do this" and then turn around and hand everything off to the programmer, especially at this point in the schedule.


goody! we have all year to think about it!! I vote no.
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Postby Knowname » Fri Jan 18, 2008 5:42 pm

godix wrote:Know what the difference between a hell 4 type of MEP and a two person collab is? Hell 4 can have up to 62 people voting for themselves while the other thing has at most two people voting for themselves. In the finals I doubt that's much of an issue but in the initial stages I suspect there's few enough votes all told that this can really make a difference. I do remember several years ago when four of the five dance finalists were MEPs.

... I entirely disagree with TJ's idea of abolishing the MEP category altogether


I think we should put meps back into the dance category. Their dance videos, let the strongest survive. Based upon the fact that dance videos have become a dying breed anyway because all those editors are putting their efforts into meps they've obviously (subconciously) caught on to the fact. We're just running around in circles chasing the golden bear with this mep thing.
I honestly don't know why people can vote for themselves anyway, I know of no other serious contest where that's acceptable practice. Well, besides the US Presidential elections but those are a joke anyway.

I would guess that's because all votes are annonimous and we can't be bothered to write our name down.
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Postby Nessephanie » Fri Jan 18, 2008 6:44 pm

Not all MEP's are dance. So they shouldn't only be in the dance category, simple as that.
I don't agree that the MEP's category should be abolished, Godix posted pretty much everything to say why they do need their own category, they would just overrun other ones, and single vids wouldn't have much of a chance.

I think that Kionon and Godix bring up very good points as to why the collab vids should be separated from the MEP's...Maybe I'm crazy, but I don't think that separating by the number of editors seems that crude of a way of split them...something like 2-6 being a collab and 7+ being MEP's...sure there may be one video or so that falls through the cracks and ends up in the wrong place (which seems to happen in other categories anyways), but overall it would separate the categories quite well...
(again, assuming this could be coded...)

As brad mentioned, my support to figure out how to separate small collab vids from the MEP's was more towards figuring it out for next year, not nessecarily trying to implement something in three days for this year :3 It would be nice, but it's just not practical thinking.
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Postby Nessephanie » Fri Jan 18, 2008 6:53 pm

As well, if not separating by number of editors, I like the idea of adding a new category that can be checked in the video details (with the types of video ie:drama, action etc.) saying the video is an MEP, and separating them that way.
(videos with the check are in the MEP category, all other projects with more then one editor go into the collab category).

I think if a box like that was added and announced, that most people who put together the MEP's in this upcoming year, would check it. This way it gives people the ability to choose whether they think their vid is an MEP or a collab.
(I would also maybe say that when the VCA's start, add something like 'If your video is an MEP, please make sure that you've checked the MEP category on your video' added to the list of things to check to make sure your vids are eligible. Just as an extra reminder...)
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Postby Tsunami Jones » Fri Jan 18, 2008 7:06 pm

Nessephanie wrote:7+ being MEP's...sure there may be one video or so that falls through the cracks and ends up in the wrong place (which seems to happen in other categories anyways), but overall it would separate the categories quite well...
(again, assuming this could be coded...)


Essentially what I see are two different types of MEPs:

1. Lots of individual videos combined into a larger project based on an over-reaching motif (AMV Hell; VG4)

2. Project where the lines between "tracks" are blurred because they flow into each other or are entirely non-existant.

I think that if they would be seperated they would have to be seperated along these lines, and *not* by how many people are actually on the project, be it two or two-thousand.

Like AtomX was saying, cutting it along the lines of the number of participants is very crude and I believe would <i>not work</i>. Also, having to watch every video to decide what would qualify and what wouldn't isn't functional either, has has already been stated. And like Corran mentioned, it's not possible for us to have the system automatically do it . . . unless . . .

we create new genre boxes on the video page, that the head of the MEP can click to distinguish it, and would also let everyone search for those videos more easily (which would have a more valid reason than just providing wankery as a VCA category).

jasper-isis wrote:I don't see a problem with your proposal. TJ?


Sounds fine.
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Postby Nessephanie » Fri Jan 18, 2008 7:17 pm

Yeah, I can understand why it could be seen as crude, and as I posted, I'm all for there being a new category box to distinguish the category :3
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