THIS THREAD IS FOR CALM DISCUSSION OF RECENT TRANSGRESSIONS

[downwithpants]

NO CRAP TOLERATED. IF YOU CAN'T TYPE IN PROPER ENGLISH, DON'T POST HERE.

i felt this is necessary to avoid any schism between forumites and administration. i don't want the administration to dodge criticism from the public.

godix was banned for 1 week and had his opinion and quick comment privileges removed. some feel this was a wrong punishment.

here's my input:
the opinion system is meant to be used for just that, opinions. not a tool to see if we can boost a video to the top of the top 10, not a tool to see who doesn't read messages. this is not the first time godix has abused the opinion scoring system.

doki did not fully realize the point of the opinion exchange thread when he took action. however, more of the other mods agree than disagree with the decision made. there was a sentiment that we don't need drama being stirred up.

was it entirely godix's fault for the drama? no, but the means by which he carried out his purpose impinges on the intended use of the opinion system.

---

regarding the several members banned for ibtl posting a few days ago, they had already had a history of spam/thread derailment. the decision wasn't only based on that individual incident, but it did contribute to the decision.

[Otohiko]

A copy of my email which seems to have poured fuel on this little fire (which I personally don't see as a huge deal but an important point for a reality check for social moderation policy on the .org here)

To whom it may concern,

I (Otohiko) have already spoken my own thoughts on this to a large part on the forum, but I would like to make another note.

I think any comment regarding the ban decision needs to take into account forum policy vs. forum politics, and though my arguments largely deal with the latter, I should note that I've every intention to respect the former and understand the basis of the disciplinary decision therein.

I do not call for a reversal of the decision nor disagree that godix has "walked a fine line" and should have at some point been disciplined, however the following must be acknowledged:
The decision was 1) poorly weighted given the circumstances (I believe the direct & immediate action for which godix was reportedly disciplined was not grounds for a ban under the forum rules, even if he otherwise committed actions that were over the line); 2) made on the basis of an irrational complaint by a member whose own behaviour is questionable at best and contrary to site rules at worst.
Therefore, I believe that the criticism and protest raised over the decision is justified and furthermore should be taken as a sign that somethng has not quite worked. Policy has clashed with politics in a way where the consensus is not as it should otherwise have been.

Again, I cannot make an argument to reverse the decision; however what I will ask is that the administration please consider a more weighted stance and, while following forum policy, take a more pragmatic approach to its interpretation and implement it in a way that does not offend nor harm the social climate on the forums. While enforcing forum rules is how moderation should be done, I believe there are cases when an overly-orthodox interpretation of a rule may be harmful to the discursive, creative and critical functions of the community and should be avoided. I am of the belief that while a moderated framework is neccesary to keep a healthy discourse, it should not overstep the bounds of common sense and offend as much if not more than the contravening action.

Any further arguments I can make would be socialist in nature, which may or may not seem appealing, so I will stop there.

I stress again: the function of the community is to be creative. This should preclude orthodox rather than pragmatic interpretations of social (forum) policy.

Respectfully,
-G.R.

[dokool]

i felt this is necessary to avoid any schism between forumites and administration. i don't want the administration to dodge criticism from the public.

I think this is the first intelligent decision that's been made so far, so kudos on that.

Personally, I don't think godix used the opinion system as a "tool to see who doesn't read messages" - that's what the thread was. I think the thread was both hilarious (in that so many people got fooled) and depressing (...in that so many people got fooled). It was a social experiment, and it worked. Kudos to him.

); 2) made on the basis of an irrational complaint by a member whose own behaviour is questionable at best and contrary to site rules at worst.

I think it's important to point out that this is the second time this has happened recently - first with Cornwiggle (who I won't deny had it coming), and now this, with both bans being handed out by the same mod. Seems like playing favorites to me, which is hardly fair to the community at large.

[Otohiko]

Actually, I would like to make a note that I agreed with the Cornwiggle ban. I would have banned him for that action were I admin myself. Godix however was never involved in direct personal attack, and I believe the member-in-question had a PM exchange in advance of the ban where godix's intentions were likely made obvious (though maybe not to the member-in-question, given their rather... unperceptive disposition).

On godix:

The most shocking feature of his philosophy is his rejection of normal ideas about human decency. Performance artist, exhibitionist and philosopher, Diogenes is said to have eaten in the marketplace, peed on the man who insulted him, defecated in the ampitheatre, and pointed at people with his middle finger. Sympathizers considered him a devotee of reason and an exemplar of honesty. Detractors said he was an obnoxious ragpicker and an offensive churl.

I believe this underlines a certain discursive importance of his character to the community.

[Prodigi]

I find the irony in the fact that in a thread where Godix was banned through the complaints of a forum member for breaking rule #1:
[quote=AMV Forum rules]1. Thou shalt be courteous at all times including visiting conventions, forum posts, opinions given, and opinions received. Respect other's judgment though you may disagree with it. If you have nothing good to say, don't say anything at all. [/quote]
In saying:

God are you stupid.

That I was then able to get away with saying to the same complaintee:

You're pretty fucking retarded.

I understand that Godix's actions in the past which have been allowed to slide, have slowly been building up to an inevitable temp-ban. However, I do believe this is not the time, nor the issue that such a ban should be issued. This action was more of a social experiment on his behalf than his normal "you suck" routine. It was going to happen sooner or later, I just believe that this issue doesn't constitute bringing upon this action.

Also, I find it highly distressing that the complaints and call for the banning of a member due to breaking of forum rules, can be taken seriously by mods/admins, when the complaintee herself does not fully abide by the forum/site rules. Said editor not only inputs false information in her video catalogue (see Rule #6) but in her site profile she also links to a forum post where she herself breaks Rule #1.

And yes, I see the irony in pointing out that I broke rule #1, and condemning her for condemning someone else for breaking rule #1, when she herself has broken rule #1. Dwell on that.

[wurpess]

I agreed with the reason CW was banned (I've had similar problems with him before, but I wasn't particularly phased by it and knew better than to take it personally.), I just don't agree with the way the person went about it. That should have been emailed/pmed to a mod. Or even put in the mod drop box if they had to post a forum topic about it. Not put in a completely public topic. Which was subject to flaming and kinda put mod type people (Doki I believe) in kinda a bad spot.

But back on topic, great character analysis Oto. That's how I've always thought of him. A total ass, but mostly to prove a point and/or give people a needed reality check. Which will usually piss people off if they take it personally. But those who don't take it personally can learn valuable lessons.

As far as recent events go, I agree with the removal of op/QC priveledges. He did abuse the system at least twice to my knowledge. Yes, he was trying to prove a point in both cases, but it did go outside the original intent of the op system. As far as the forum banning goes, I don't deny that's he's been walking a fine line and that he's pushed boundaries a bit too far before. I just don't think this was one of those cases. He very clearly stated in the thread (in normal size text) that it was an experiment, what was going on and what he was going to do. After that, he made good on his promise, as is expected in the op exchange forum. Technically, even in the op, he never personally attacked anyone. (At least under the 'I'm not racist. I hate everyone equally' rationale) He just followed through with his promise made on the op exchange. After that, if the poster didn't read the original post with the conditions, I feel that is on them.

Even so, I don't really know what happened in the pms, but nowhere in that thread nor in the complaint thread did he really attack anyone. In the complaint thread, he actually responded in a more courteous manner than the person lodging the complaint. Speaking of which, said person quotes the forum rules regarding respect of others, and yet, I've seen threads where said person was less than courteous and respectful of those trying to help them. Even had it rather insultingly in their sig at one point. So I'm already unhappy with the fact that they can insult and yell at people trying to help them for really no reason at all. Then have a spaz attack insisting on another person's ban because they had made a mistake, didn't bother to read and got exactly what they had techinically asked for. (Which at least Godix gave the ops he promised. The person in question had an op exchange thread but never gave any ops.) But they go off on irrational rants while Godix stays as calm and courteous as one would expect from him, and yet he's the one that gets the forum ban.

Like I said, I agree with the revoking of the op priveledges, I know he's done ban worthy stuff in the past, and I don't know what went on in the pms, but just from what I saw, in this situation, I don't think he particularly violated the forum rules in any way that would warrant a ban (this time. ) But that's just my opinion. And as I always say, my opinion only counts for one vote. At any rate, as with the CW situation, I think the person went about it in completely the wrong way. They're always saying "Email the mods" to every problem someone has, and yet they don't take their own advice. This is something that should have been emailed/pmed/mod drop boxed. By putting it in a public thread, it just aggravates the situation by allowing other people to post and puts the mods in a bad place. Oh well. What's done is done and hopefully lessons will be learned from this. (preferably by those that need to learn them. )

[Arigatomina]

Seems like playing favorites to me, which is hardly fair to the community at large.

That's the issue I have with it.

If you're going to ban someone publically, I think you should state the reason. State exactly which rules that person broke. And if the person asking for the ban has broken those same rules, you ban them both.

Godix was a particular case. The last public ban was not. For all appearances the person was banned based solely on one insulting PM. Consider that the person asking for the ban had (at that time) numerous public forum posts insulting and cursing out other members. If someone asked that person to be banned for those insults, would it happen? Would it happen immediately like it did when that person complained? I doubt it. That's the problem.

There have been complaints about this (these) member(s) from the beginning. In every single instance, the people complaining about them were silenced. While they were left free to be as vile as they liked. Why? Because we can decipher the posts well enough to know when they're complaining, but not well enough to know when they're being more insulting than the people they're complaining about. A victim who turns around and commits the same crime should get the same sentence.

If you're going to enforce politeness, enforce it on both sides. Don't play favorites, at least not on the forum where everyone has to witness it. It's unseemly.

[JaddziaDax]

i dont in any way shape or form think doki was playing favorites... i think he was uninformed and in the wrong place at the wrong time...

I agreed with the reason CW was banned (I've had similar problems with him before, but I wasn't particularly phased by it and knew better than to take it personally.),

no offense to anyone but ALOT of people had this issue with CW, and some still do, perhaps its just that people dont know but he had still been harassing several people when he got banned, it wasnt just a 1 time deal and sudden ban hammer on his face.... even if it appeared so... AND he has gotten himself banned after that for harassing someone else... so CW is hardly "proof" that doki was playing favorites...

CW has also called several "cease fires" interestingly enough...

i also believe this was the case with godix.. many things hes done that the general public doesnt know about... to lead up to this...

though at the same time, godix makes a valid point in his journal: the mods never told him "hey look dont do this you gonna get yourself banned, knock it off"... granted hes a smart man and he knew he was toeing the line (which is why hes not fighting his ban), but still he wasnt given any warning, and i watched as the thread wasnt even locked... one of the mods came in and even changed links when people linked to other peoples profiles but they didnt stop him or warn him that what he was doing was going to get him banned...

so pretty much it was okay till a thread topic was posted. and most of the responses in that thread pretty much said "its your own fault, you should have read the topic, you deserved to be flamed" and this person in particular actually DOES deserve it due to the many times people have tried to help them only to get chewed out, or not paid attention to... they have been on the forum long enough that they should know better by now, yet they dont seem to get it.

but as kalium told me in a public forum post (somewhere... i cant find it): that the mods would rather the general public on the forums do the communicating... (or something like that) "ushering in the newbs" maybe? (which amazingly what godix was doing when he made that thread)

which read to me, that the mods didnt have to mod, it was just their job to ban people and lock threads, when the public was supposed to feed them the warnings...

i had to get a pm from MINION about the picspam issue to even know that that had happened, and he was warning me that i should not picspam too much so i dont get the ban hammer... granted its helpful when you will have someone who will spread the word, but i shouldnt have had to worry about it if it was stated clearly that this was now considered unacceptable. I had no idea... seriously... i thought it was acceptable till he warned me.

so, I do agree that there should be more communication on the forums between the mods and the public... this topic proves it.

i mean seriously now i also want a mod to answer this: is the answer to "how do i delete my account?" really "stop logging in" ???

i still dont have an answer to that unless they suddenly "FAQed" it without notifying anyone. and i would like to hear from a MOD what the answer is, none of them have given a straight answer on the forums, they all seem to ignore the threads when they come up, and thats why i keep telling people to email them cause no one on the forums seems to have a straight answer either...

Speaking of which, said person quotes the forum rules regarding respect of others, and yet, I've seen threads where said person was less than courteous and respectful of those trying to help them.

ive gone through my headaches of attempting to help the person in question myself... i havent been "chewed out" but its really annoying to try to help someone and they just dont want to listen, or argue "semantics" to the point of annoiance.

and this has already been braught up to the person in question... about spelling things in uber "1337|\|0013ism"... they claim to have made their changes to their locked info, but thats not my case anymore as they HAVE been informed about it already.

this topic alone shows that they dont seem to pay enough attention to how this site works, i had to argue with them for a while just to get them to see the rules on banner signatures, it ended with me bolding the part in the forum rules for them to see what i was talking about.

(Which at least Godix gave the ops he promised. The person in question had an op exchange thread but never gave any ops.)

they still havent given me the op from the op exchange on their onegai thread :/

either way in my opinion the situation was just handled wrong... and poor doki was in the wrong place at the wrong time... as i told kalium: the timing was just very very bad.

I still dont think doki was playing favorites...

but as for the whiner in question, who complained on Godix: there comes a time when you have been around a place long enough that there is no more excuses to act like an asshaul.

[JaddziaDax]

i agree with ari in the "banning them both" thing too

[BasharOfTheAges]

I though he should have been banned for the "all 10" op exchange thing from the DTSEMEP, but that wasn't my call so I didn't say anything (it was also shockingly honest in the way these things usually work - albeit with a wink and a nod). I may go out of my way to start shit some time, and I’ve gone so far as requesting a relative (who does not understand the simplest thing about forum etiquette) not be allowed to post here, but the hypocrisy in ever asking another user be banned for rules you break all the time is quite outstanding. If this kind of thing is commonplace and considered the norm now, I can get that relative to come back (I don't think he was ever really banned) and I know he will do the same damn thing - complete with the butchered grammar, inability to understand how forums work, disregard for comprehension, and the propensity to act like a victim, etc. (he's a troubled child).
I'd throw the word "troll" around if everyone weren't so certain of a diminished mental capacity...

NO CRAP TOLERATED. IF YOU CAN'T TYPE IN PROPER ENGLISH, DON'T POST HERE.

Thank you for this. Some people have begun to realize the best way to sweep a story under the rug and stifle discussion here is to blast in and change the subject so the thread gets locked.

[Otohiko]

I'll restate another thing I argued privately though:

For all the demonizing of godix that took place in the last while, I don't think banning a member who has made 60 posts in the last week (virtually all of which were useful, a few were VERY useful, and only 2 were questionably disposed - in the same period as I made 3 similarly-questionable posts) and is coordinating an MEP through the .org PMs should be taken lightly. Add to that the fact that I think the ban offended more people than it appeased. This is where my argument in favour of pragmatism comes in; a ban may have been the correct thing to do but not neccesarily a good thing.

[Corran]

is the answer to "how do i delete my account?" really "stop logging in" ???

Currently, yes if only for the fact that since the org and phpbb are heavily modified that it would be quite an undertaking to code. Then of course is the problem of determining what should happen to the ops, posts, PM, QC, videos, etc.

Regarding Godix, the current situation was not the best time for a ban, though, as he states himself in his journal, he had it coming for quite some time. Please don't interpret that a lack of action on Black pearl is the result of "mods don't care" or the "mods don't communicate". While the ban on Godix was abrupt, we are currently discussing what should happen next.

[JaddziaDax]

thank you.
i shall bookmark this for future reference, but i also have an aim convo with kalium stating the same thing... (in otherwords, thanks for the answer, but i already got one, though its nice to see more than one mod answer it and its appreciated)
i think an FAQ section should be in order... but no stress for now...

[Cornwiggle]

He is only banned for one week. It's not really that long, kind of like a slap on the wrists for doing something wrong. If he was permanently banned, I could see how this kind of discussion would be taking place, but one week is nothing. I'm surprised he didn't get banned way before this.

And yeah, I tend to have this bad habit of when people annoy me, I let them know, but I've been trying to not do that anymore, but yeah I deserved a ban for that.

[Cornwiggle]

*hit reply by accident* >_>

And yes it's a sad fact about the world but the easily offended people do rule it. Think about it ever aspect, we cater to their problems just because they have a problem when no one else does, it's like that here. Godix's thread was there to find people who wouldn't read and would fall for it, and while he even stated what he would do, he had to expect that someone would have a problem and think of it as a flame or just be offended. It just takes one easily offended person for stuff to change.

I've found it out a lot of ways, you can only mess with people for so long until you find one has a problem and "tells" on you.

So yeah, it sucks that Godix's OP and QCs were disabled, but it's the price the pay to have a little fun.