conspiracy theories

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conspiracy theories

Postby Arigatomina » Sat Dec 30, 2006 5:27 pm

How offtopic can I get? Let's see. :roll:

My mom threw me for a loop today by revealing she believes the moon landing was a hoax, and that the subsequent death of all those people on the shuttle (including a school teacher) was done to make the public stop their cries of "let's go to the moon again!" The reason she thinks it's a hoax is because, in her words, we didn't have the technology at the time. The tv was playing daily "demos" of what the landing would look like that were identical to the supposed "actual landing" they saw when the pilots "got back." And, here's the great part, there's a radiation field surrounding the earth that prevents anyone from flying to the moon, or to any other planet/bodies past that field. She knows about the field because one of the first astronauts got retina burns when he encountered it (or something like that). The field is why, according to her, all the manned flights remain in close orbit to the earth - they can't go past a certain point so all the planetary exploration is done by remote.

Consider that my mother is one of the smartest people I know, book smart and world smart. She's usually the one to assure me there's no conspiracy behind the oil war, global warming, and creationists. I can't debunk what she remembers about the moon landing because I wasn't there - I didn't see the things on television she saw, or the technology they had then, and she gives a good argument for *why* the US would stage such a thing.

But that radiation field kills me. With our current technology there's no way we wouldn't be able to design some shield/suit to withstand even the strongest radiation (even if the field *did* exist, which it doesn't). Tell me how to debunk that without appealing to common sense alone. The FlatEarthers were using that field as proof that man never "circled" the earth in space, it's that old of a myth. It's as bad as the invisible ocean circling the planet's atmosphere that God opened up to flood the world in Genesis (literal creationist dogma takes the book verbatim). Clearly common sense doesn't work as "proof" with these people. My mom says she's willing to disbelieve the 'field' part if I can give her some evidence that it doesn't exist, or that we'd be able to get past it if it did exist. As it is, her theory means every manned flight we've ever done a few miles past the planet is a hoax. ^^'

Conspiracy theories are fun, but the really OT ones are just annoying. Any creationists on this site? Do you believe the dinosaurs died because they didn't fit on the ark? How about Planet X, did it just decide to skip us in 2003? Or are we all skeptics here? :P
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Postby Orwell » Sat Dec 30, 2006 6:11 pm

I diagree with;
ari wrote:With our current technology there's no way we wouldn't be able to design some shield/suit to withstand even the strongest radiation (even if the field *did* exist, which it doesn't).


I don't believe we can defend against the strongest radiation out there. If we could, our satelites would have it. The gamma rays from the sun took out a bunch of satelites a couple years ago. Nothing to be done there. If we had something to defend against it, I think we'd seem much more nuclear power, and less overall concern about what to do with its waste. Maybe we could design something, but uh, heh, I don't think it'd matter because we'd all be dead before the solution was found to a problem that caused the research in the first place.

As far as convincing your mother about landing on the moon, I'd demand more proof of this radiation barrier. Hell, a wiki article about it would suffice. There IS a magnetic shield around the earth, but that's not the same. Retina's could have been damaged due to, and I must admit I don't know/care much about the first trip to the moon improper/broken eye shielding and the light during coming down. I imagine your retina's would be hurt by not wearing proper sunglasses and skiing all day on reflective snow.

Second of all, how does she explain the ISS? What about Japanese millionaires who re-enact Gundam. [Gay Underage Nubile Doable Adolescent? sexually Ambiguous? Males (I forget the whole phrase, something like that)]
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Postby guy07 » Sat Dec 30, 2006 6:46 pm

I donated 20 bucks to talk about conspiracies? Totally worth it.
And not to be a wet blanket, but we'v sent stuff to mars, i'm sure we'v been to the moon sometime, even it it wasn't that one time.
As for other theories, a-m-v.org was constructed to breed and train a elite class of super humans that can edit with 3X the speed and coolness or everyday editors.
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Postby downwithpants » Sat Dec 30, 2006 6:55 pm

i saw this website on the moon landings being hoaxes. they claimed that the pictures of the astronauts planting flags had to be false because the moon has no atmosphere, thus no wind could have been blowing on the flags.

ah yeah, here it is: http://www.ufos-aliens.co.uk/cosmicapollo.html


there's also a video on google video that suggested 9/11 was permitted or planned by the us government. had an interesting argument that one passenger airline (presumeably flight 93) was allowed to land in cincinnati or something long after faa cleared the airspace.


one conspiracy i DO believe was the lowering gas prices from this summer till november was controlled or affected by the US government to improve incumbent ratings for the elections.
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Postby Kalium » Sat Dec 30, 2006 7:05 pm

downwithpants wrote:i saw this website on the moon landings being hoaxes. they claimed that the pictures of the astronauts planting flags had to be false because the moon has no atmosphere, thus no wind could have been blowing on the flags.

ah yeah, here it is: http://www.ufos-aliens.co.uk/cosmicapollo.html

One good links deserves another. In short, those people are full of shit. There may not be wind, but an astronaut actively fiddling with a flagpole will cause a flag to wave.

Conspiracy theories exist on the premise of personal incredulity, usually. The idea that "no person could ever do that, there must be something else at work".
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Postby Beowulf » Sat Dec 30, 2006 7:09 pm

Um guys, I haven't read any of this thread besides the first two sentences, but the moon landing WAS faked. Its been pretty out in the open for a bit now.

When I say "out in the open" I mean like "arabs at convenience stores know about it out in the open".

ROFL next someone is going to go "Hey guys, I think the CIA assassinated JFK!"
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Postby Otohiko » Sat Dec 30, 2006 7:13 pm

I'm not a space expert so I don't think I need to judge the whole Moon thing for myself. Everything for me and most of the rest of us depends on sources, and most reliable sources indicate that the 'official' version is the right one.

My former employers were conspiracy theory believers; their most annoying one was a series of books by a Russian engineer who claimed that all of history before 1500AD has been faked, and in fact the entire world's civilization has been created by the Mongols about 500 years before that. Myself and my mother looked through the books and, being both historians by education, we couldn't help but sneer. And yet it was impossible to dissuade these people that this wasn't a sensible theory.



Generally speaking, one of my profs said it best - "I don't believe in conspiracy theories because few of them have ever ended up being true." The fact is that virtually every conspiracy theory is highly improbable, and if there's one thing in this world that I side with, it's the law of probability. :roll:
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Postby Otohiko » Sat Dec 30, 2006 7:23 pm

Oh, another thought.

Conspiracy theorists often use a little trick which a lot of people fall for:

"If they say we're wrong, why don't they say something that would disprove our theory? We have disproved theirs!"

In the case of my ex-employers (they're friends of the family), they asked us that exact question, which we had to avoid answering to their face. The private answer was "No serious historian would sink themselves so low as to even begin to respond to that shite" :roll:
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Postby starcat09 » Sat Dec 30, 2006 7:26 pm

My conspiracy theory: Google is trying to take over the world. (Really, what better way to start than through the communications business...?) This is just a silly thing - I'm not saying OMG Gewgle is t3h ev1l lets all go bomb them - but it's something I believe. Possibly because I've read too much Excel Saga manga and I believe this world is, indeed, corrupt.

Gas prices are artifically inflated anyways.

As far as the radiation field-barrierthing goes, where does the radiation come from? Earth? Well, that can't be, or else we'd all be dead. The Sun? The sun certainly does radiate, but the magnetic field stops most of it. My understanding is that it redirects it - not captures it only to release it into hapless astronauts' retinas...

I do agree with Orwell: we can't stop the strongest radiation out there, at least not feasibly.
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Postby Beowulf » Sat Dec 30, 2006 7:33 pm

I find it a very reasonable way of life to COMPLETELY disregard the "official stance" of almost any government organization, especially on the issues of war, assassination, political intentions, and colonization.

Everyone knows that JFK was killed by the CIA, not Oswald. Governments lie, Kings get killed, countries are invaded for natural resources, this has been going on long before people started thinking of "conspiracy theories".

Almost everyone knows that the MK-Ultra mind control program actually exists and has existed since the 40s. What was once a crazy Mel Gibson movie with Julia Roberts is now an EXHAUSTIVELY researched fact.

People need to stop attaching crazy images and paranoid nonsense to "conspiracy theories". We invaded Vietnam so we could get a larger piece of the heroin trade that was coming out of it. Thats it. Its a done deal. Its not like that kind of thing hasn't happened before or isn't happening right now in Afghanistan, so just give it a rest.

In short, tons of shit is happening that people have no idea about, and fixating on the perceived truth of an even that will seem so obvious in 50 years, is a BIG waste of time.
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Postby guy07 » Sat Dec 30, 2006 7:34 pm

How do u people type that fast? :S
is it part of some conspiracy?
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Postby Otohiko » Sat Dec 30, 2006 7:37 pm

Well, I wouldn't go to that extremes, but I am to equal parts an unbeliever in conspiracy theories and politically-affiliated information sources. But I wouldn't go disregarding the latter, so much as taking it with a grain of salt. I would be ashamed to call myself a skeptic if I either rejected or accepted something outright.

As for it becoming apparent in the next 50 years, I see someone is optimistic enough to think that civilization will last that long :roll:

(only half-serious there)
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Postby starcat09 » Sat Dec 30, 2006 7:38 pm

Instead of making AMVs we take brainwashing courses that make our fingers move really fast. :O

But I'm afraid you didn't hear that...
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Postby Arigatomina » Sat Dec 30, 2006 8:34 pm

More about that radiation field - if you go on the theory that it only stops organics from passing through it, it can't be very strong. She doesn't argue that the mars exploration was hoaxed, just that they had to send machines because no living creatures could get through that field. That's not radiation in the 'normal' sense. Radiation in space - you think of solar flares, things that screw with your equipment even on earth. I don't know of any radation sources in space that would be fine for mechanical things, but deadly to humans. It's too particular - like it was designed solely to keep us planetbound, not minding if we send out our toys to look around as long as we don't try to escape ourselves.

Part of the whole "there's a radiation field that keeps us planet bound" is the idea that we were put here meant to stay here. Think of it as an antfarm. You can't study and poke at the critters if they can crawl out of the cage any time they want. My mom likes that analogy. Turns out she's a real wacko after all. ;p

Do you believe in aliens? I do.

I don't believe people have been abducted and then returned, and I don't believe a "superior race" would be terribly interested in us. But I really doubt this is the only planet in existence with life on it. And I do believe humans have left the planet and returned via space shuttles (field or no field). If we can do it, other things could.

My mom believes aliens really did land in Roswell. Yeah. I asked her why, when that's such a red herring, and she said it's because her uncle saw one. But there weren't any living survivors, just a wreckage and bodies. It's funny how she scoffs at those people who believe there might have been living aliens kept in secret, but she's convinced the landing itself was as real as anything.

Otohiko wrote:Conspiracy theorists often use a little trick which a lot of people fall for:

"If they say we're wrong, why don't they say something that would disprove our theory? We have disproved theirs!"


I like debunking theories like that. I think it's necessary. Because it's not the people making up the theories you have to worry about, it's the idiot masses who swallow anything they're given. They hear the "we have disproved theirs" and believe it on face value. And they're the ones who vote which people to put into power in the US. Scary. That's how we got another Bush for president. Kids are being taught that humans played with dinosaurs in their biology classes now, because Creationism was deemed a science in some states. All because no real scientists ever took them seriously. The courts never took them seriously in the past, but they are now, so scientists should be, too. In most cases it doesn't take much time to point out the massive amount of evidence that has been ignored (not disproven). Your average person never even hears about that evidence because the fanatics are the only ones talking.

Again, scary. But that's what makes it fun. ^^

So, Vietnam was for heroine, eh? Hear a new one every day. I can't wait to get my grandpa's reaction to that - he risked his life for dope money. :lol:
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Postby Tsunami Jones » Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:14 pm

Beowulf wrote: We invaded Vietnam so we could get a larger piece of the heroin trade that was coming out of it. Thats it.


:roll: That's frankly bullshit. I'm not saying that heroin had nothing to do with it, I'm just saying that putting the entire war down to it is ridiculous.
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