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Postby Arigatomina » Wed Jun 09, 2004 6:24 pm

Nestorath69 wrote:Other than the consistent reposting of the same stuff, over and over and over? You don't see this as a definitive problem?

If people weren't flamed for adding onto those 'same stuff' older threads, then maybe they would bother to add onto them instead of starting new ones. But we hate necroposters, remember? And if you can't add onto the existing threads, the only alternative is to start a new thread about the exact same thing.

Just take away people's right to start a thread. Clear out Gen Anime and let the mods/admin/smart people create the threads they think should exist here. Then everyone else can post on those threads, and you'll never see another 'new crap' thread popping up. If someone wants to discuss something that doesn't exist, he can drop a suggestion in this section - asking for a thread in which he can talk about that subject. The admin can think about it and if they agree it's a reasonable subject for members to talk about, they can create a new thread. And if they think idiots are posting too much in one of their threads, they can ban the offending individuals - or just take away their ability to post until they write an appology for being stupid to the admin who 'banned' them - or permanently if you want to really crack down on the stupid members. Better yet, make people write an intro essay to be allowed to post. Those who don't show appropriate ability to be intelligent stay off the forum, or become 'read-only' members until they get smart enough to join as 'real' members.

Honestly, if you want a police state, there are simple, strict ways to go about it without copy-catting another forum and clogging the place up with stickies. The admins already make their own rules about what is and is not an appropriate subject to be discussed. Surely they can create their own threads to make sure people only talk about reasonable topics - completely eliminating the crap threads. After that, it's just a matter of finding a way to keep the dumb posters from spoiling those 'good' threads.

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Postby Calim » Wed Jun 09, 2004 6:42 pm

AbsoluteDestiny wrote:Well, there is a difference between "I'm really really new and just know"

Those are the punks I'm talking about ;D
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Postby Nestorath69 » Wed Jun 09, 2004 6:43 pm

Ah, but if they honestly, truely wanted to feel like they were to make a valid contribution, don't you think the perspective newbie (or n00b, as the case may be) would be intelligent enought to lurk, learn, and read the FAQs? If they're going to be ignorant, then they deserve whatever flames they get. From what I've seen from other forums, a simple "Read the FAQ" notice will likely set the 'offending n00b' (I use that with mild sarcasm) straight.

The idea is not to necropost. If someone has a particular question; say, Trigun, I'm sure we have a billion and a half trigun related threads that they could browse through, find the info they want, WITHOUT having to resurrect. The answers are all there, we've just been too lazy to go looking for them.

Arigatomyna- I'm not looking for a police state, i would like to kickstart this forum into something that is smoothly running, instead of backpeddling in the mucky muck. I've no real status other than 'established monkey', but I feel I'd like to give back to something that's helped me so much. I don't understand why you're opposed to it.
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Postby Corran » Wed Jun 09, 2004 7:14 pm

Which would you rather have? A thread that gets necroposted every once in a while and a response like, "Dude, this was already discussed on page 30" or new threads. Both are a bother however there are always new people and effectively, new threads on the past discussed topics.

Many people are joining every day. When I checked a few minutes ago there were 411 users that signed up to the site today alone. Granted while most of them won't post on the forum, there will still be a lot of 'newbies' that will. Some of these people also have never used a forum before and are anxious to jump in and have a good time. That is fine and dandy but they might not know about the power of the forum search yet. It is reasonable to assume then that there is a good chance these people will repost discussed topics.

The thing that bugs me more than repeated topics and I think sould be dealt with are people that think they know more than the people they belittle, or they are hypocrites. Aside from this and a few other threads I always seen you calling people n00bs and getting (overly) frustrated with them. Instead of harrassing them perhaps you could tell them that this subject has been discussed in the past and even link them to said threads. It is even said in the site rules.
1. Thou shalt be courteous at all times including visiting conventions, forum posts, opinions given, and opinions received. Respect other's judgment though you may disagree with it. If you have nothing good to say, don't say anything at all.

5. If a member (most likely a newbie) posts to the wrong forum, you as a knowing member must 1) answer the question they posted and then 2) point out which forum is the most approprate one to post to about such items. The forum moderator will (most likely) soon move the thread.

8.The forum will not be used for any kind of personal attacks.
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Postby Arigatomina » Wed Jun 09, 2004 8:02 pm

Nestorath69 wrote:Arigatomyna- I'm not looking for a police state, i would like to kickstart this forum into something that is smoothly running, instead of backpeddling in the mucky muck. I've no real status other than 'established monkey', but I feel I'd like to give back to something that's helped me so much. I don't understand why you're opposed to it.

So far the only thing I've been apposed to was having the admins of this site call me stupid for having an intelligent conversation - the statement that people who posted in those 'now locked' threads were all idiots without whom the forum would be better off. I took insult to that, and I'll continue to take insult to that. Since when is trying to add a thoughtful commentary proof of being an idiot? Regardless of how many there have been, there has always been room to add inteligent responses to those threads. If I make a mistake, I'll admit I'm stupid. But I refuse to have my intelligence belittled for thinking.

As for what I said here, I'm completely serious. How can you prevent stupid threads? Don't let people make them. Simple. Don't let people make threads. A hundred locked threads is going to look nasty within a week. A few deleted posts and banned members, though - few people would even notice the absence (just the ones being banned). It is the quickest and most foolproof way to eliminate the problem of having stupid threads made by stupid people.

I'm not against the idea of cleaning up the forum, I'm just saying if you want it done right, do it entirely. Don't do this "delete/cut back one section at a time" method. It's just a slow death to the people you're trying to weed out. Do it and get it over with - cut out the problem. Let us see what it's like in this utopia, and you'll get your backers - the rest will get used to it or leave. Case closed, no arguments, no people asking for the removed 'rights' or 'sections' to be brought back. If they can't make threads, the mods/admin can govern the site better than having to watch constantly to delete/lock those dumb threads. Instead, they can moderate the 50 or so ones they deem intelligent enough to exist here.
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Postby godix » Wed Jun 09, 2004 9:24 pm

I just have a quick question, after we stop people from reposting topics will we still continue to insult anyone who necroposts? I see it as an either/or situation and of the two I think necroposting in old topics who's original participants may not even be on the org anymore is worse. Besides, if you were a newbie wouldn't seeing 'End of Eva replies 956 views 5092' kinda intimidate you right off the bat?
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Postby Corran » Wed Jun 09, 2004 9:39 pm

:oops: Just in case there was any confusion I was replying to Nestorath69. I just realized I might not have made it evident...
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Postby Zarxrax » Wed Jun 09, 2004 9:47 pm

To Arigatomyna:
Look. I like you. You're a cool person. One of the admins made a GENERALIZATION. Why are you getting so hyped up over it? Do you respond this way to every generalization you hear? I hear at least 10's of generalizations every day, if not hundreds. You know very well that you aren't an idiot. And you know very well that the admins don't think you are an idiot. The majority of those posts were worthless crap. Of course its possible to make SOME intelligent posts regarding those type of threads, but IN GENERAL, they were crap threads.

To the thread as a whole:
To everyone that opposes more strict guidelines... you DO realize that there are much stricter forums than this one out there, and they actually have a lot more interesting conversation on them. And theres no newbie bashing either. Guess what? I believe any newbie bashing comes from lack of enforcement. By making overall stricter forum, not only does the overall intelligence of the forum go up, but the newbies will be responded to more nicely, and everyone would get along a lot better. At least, thats how it is on most every other forum I go to. This forum is the ONLY one I have ever been on where people bash newbies, where people flame each other, where people blatantly break rules, etc. Just something to think about.
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Postby Arigatomina » Wed Jun 09, 2004 10:07 pm

Zarxrax wrote:This forum is the ONLY one I have ever been on where people bash newbies, where people flame each other, where people blatantly break rules, etc.

Actually, it's the only one I've been on where it was accepted so much, so I agree about that. I was actually shocked when I first joined, but I've gotten desensitized since then.

As for the generalization - I know it was a broad statement. At the very least I was hoping for a recant on the 'anyone who thinks there's use in those threads shouldn't be here' decision. Of all the threads I've read and replied to, those versus threads gave me the best chance to really look at how writers create their characters, how they craft their strengths and weaknesses and how various creators in the broader field of anime can be compared and contrasted - by comparing their characters. Sure, a lot of it's just physical attributes, but topics like that call for actual character study. Sad as it might be, I enjoyed those threads - enjoyed having a chance to discuss characters with other fans of those characters.

Keep in mind, they didn't say the crap vs threads were going to be locked, they said all of them were. That means never again will anyone on this forum get a chance to compare characters no matter how indepth or intelligently they hoped to compare them. It isn't just eliminating the cheap threads, it's banning anything of the sort on the idea that vs = crap, no exceptions allowed. I'm anti-censoring by nature. But considering those are the only threads I've seen in months that gave people a chance to discus character development, yeah, I'm a little unhappy to see them all cut indiscriminately. So I do take it personally - because there aren't many threads where you break down discussion into a character-by-character basis, and those are among my favorite threads on this forum.

But that's done with. If we're going to ban 'types' of threads, then we might as well start out with a list of what sort of threads are *allowed*. That would disclude anything on the outside and make the 'rules' clear cut. Only, if they did that, then they might as well do what I suggested - create the thread topics they want and prevent any others from being made. I'm all for change, but I'm an extremist - if you're going to change, do it completely. Cutting bits off here and there takes forever and doesn't accomplish much in the way of immediate results. And enforcing the new rules - that's a lot of locking. And do you really think the vs threads are the only 'crap' threads popping up each day/week? No, they'll either need a lot more stickies, or something to prevent anything outside what they want to be posted.
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Postby Zarxrax » Wed Jun 09, 2004 10:28 pm

I agree, there would be a LOT of locking. At the beginning at least. I think once people got set into a new style, there would be a lot less locked threads, because people would have learned what is accepted and what is not. And the overall intelligence of conversations would be much higher on average, so you would get a chance to partake in intellectual thoughts that you enjoy so much. And with broader and stricter general rules, there would be no need for rules about specific threads that can't be made. So it might be possible that you could even still get to compare characters in an intelligent way if you so desired.
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Postby Nestorath69 » Thu Jun 10, 2004 1:27 pm

Last attempt to clarify:

newbie: Hi! I'm new! Who Likes kenshin? Like on Episode #?? When he did (insert appropriate shit here)
More Established forumite: Check out the FAQ and take a look through the archived threads. You'll see that everyone has their own tastes. This will answer any questions you might have. This will also keep you from asking something people might see as contrived, and hopefully avoid flaming.
Newbie: All right.

You see? No need to necropost. The n00b might feel disappointed, but if he honestly wanted to contribute, he'd check over the ground already covered, and then ask something that possibly hadn't been covered... like:

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Postby paizuri » Thu Jun 10, 2004 3:43 pm

I guess I was a bit vague in my description of "pointless" versus threads. I didn't bother to elaborate on what exactly made them pointless except for an implication that they don't spark intelligent conversation. If anyone takes that to mean they're stupid, then I'm sorry, it was not my intent.

However, for those of you who choose to demonize the administration here, I would suggest that you take our words with a grain of salt. Most of us don't know you other than through the forum and so any opinions we have of you may only be on what we know through your forum behavior. If you know you act like a total goofball, then chances are that's how we'll think of you too. If you've presented yourself in a more favorable light but we seem to throw out a blanket condemnation that could possibly include you, chances are we aren't really targeting you.

It was perhaps unfair to single out the versus threads as the only sort that are problematic, but I think they, or at least the recent wave that has currently plagued the forum, do embody the sort of thread that should be discouraged here. My proclamation was not part of some grand master plan though, but merely in response to what appeared to be a growing sentiment among the majority of the users.

My beef with the versus threads was that they lent themselves too easily to one-word answers and off-topic conversations between such a small number of people that the thread was irrevocably derailed. Yes there were intelligent posts every now and then, but those were few and far between. And it was the posters themselves that brought the intellectualism and not the thread itself. Oftentimes, I'd see maybe one or two responses to those, but usually they ran along the lines of "O_O" or "you write a lot" or "I can't read that much". So even if these threads were ripe for character analysis, I view them as failures in that regard. And for each one of those threads on the front page, that means there was one less potentially more interesting thread that could be there in its place or that might get lost in the shuffle even on the front page.

What could improve them is well-written initial posts with some sort of direction or focus. Instead of having broad topics like, "INUYASHA" or "WHO LIKES KENSHIN???????" with generic text like "Discuss. 8) " or "I like this show" or "IT TOTALLY ROCKS!!!", there should be more of a qualification or background for this reasoning, or at least put forth your opinion. Something along the lines of "I saw this on Cartoon Network and got totally addicted to it! I think the animation is really smooth and the action scenes look awesome! Also, I really want Kikyo to get together with Inuyasha even though she's sorta evil now. What do you guys think?" But this means that the initial poster has to put a little bit more thought into their threads and actually put some semblance of trying to START a conversation instead of just rolling a snowball down a mountain and seeing how big it gets.

Personally, I don't agree with changing everything all at once. People are naturally adaptive, but to change everything at once would be a shock to the system. Furthermore, we are not trying to "weed" anyone out. We do not want to set up a police state. We are not going to talk about only the things we want to talk about. This is a forum, not a for-us. But at the same time, we don't want history to repeat itself (ie. turning into the old OT boards). There are definite problems within the forum, but there's no easy way to "fix" everything just like that. Rome wasn't built in a day and neither was the .org.
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Postby Cloud Clone » Thu Jun 10, 2004 6:15 pm

Wow, I think that just may be the first thing I've heard from Paizuri that made me feel as though we were actual thinking, feeling human beings! *Applauds*
I agree that sometimes the conversations don't live up to the standards of the administrators and the elitist/established/old posters, and I see that you're trying to change that. However, I disagree with taking away the privilages of forum members without thoroughly explaining to them exactly what isn't appreciated in this community. To make this kind of change without so much as a previous warning is rash and immature approach to such a situation.
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Postby Declan_Vee » Fri Jun 11, 2004 8:51 pm

Perhaps the forum should adopt a fathering method. The best way to keep your daughter from being assaulted and mixing with downright nasty guys, is to make her seem less attractive.

There'd be fewer cases of the said nonsense if these noobs knew that they could be on another forum with: a lot more features, cool colours, edit buttons, forums dedicated solely to threads about Eva, and mods who didn't lock/delete threads on sight.
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Postby J-0080 » Fri Jun 11, 2004 9:19 pm

Declan_Vee wrote:Perhaps the forum should adopt a fathering method. The best way to keep your daughter from being assaulted and mixing with downright nasty guys, is to make her seem less attractive.

I thought it was to chase away all prospective suiters with a 12 guage.
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