Top 10% List "Score" Modified

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Postby Bote » Wed May 05, 2004 7:08 am

mckeed wrote:It makes sense, i was just using 30 as a random number I pulled out of my arse.


Must've hurt you bad. 3 is like 2 hooks merged together. :lol:
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Postby mckeed » Wed May 05, 2004 9:55 am

i pulled it out from the rounded edge so it wasn't to bad. A little uncomfortable, but it was better than leavnig it in there. :P
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Postby genestarwind21122 » Wed May 05, 2004 9:55 am

Okay everyone but take for instance Shrine of the Goddess that video was up there for 4 days or so on top above Euphoria I know you may say that's wrong but I was getting ops from various people. If a video is on the top 10% the old way the only thing you guys should have done is took a look at it and see why it got there. If you think it is a good video then op it honestly for the reason why it is good and the same thing goes for bad. If it is bad then op honestly why it is bad and not give it straight 1's. The old system had it's advantages for creators that aren't well known they could have got on there because they finally had a breakthrough and people could see it then if it was truely good.

Do you see where I'm going with it. I'm not saying I'm offended by the new policy but it doesn't mean that a 30 op video couldn't be proven worthy over a 200 op video or a video that is blown out of proportion.
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Postby Zarxrax » Wed May 05, 2004 10:03 am

New creators can still have a breakthrough and get on the list. You think Koop was a major player before he released Euphoria? How bout Majin Kenshin? Nappy? Kurt?
New videos will make it to the list of they are worthy. I think you are worried about videos that are not *truely* worthy of being on the list getting up there just so they can have some extra exposure. This is wrong though. The weekly star lists can give these videos a better shot though.
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Postby mckeed » Wed May 05, 2004 10:16 am

Though I think the list is more accurate currently, I do agree with gene. My Uber depressing video started getting way more ops once it made the top 10 and continued to get solid revierws. Imust have checked the top 10% right before the switch as it had manged to move up to #17. Then after the switch it moved down to the bottom of the list. Personally I think it would be good to have two lists up, as they both tend to highlight different videos. People with a string of good reviews can get some much needed exposure. Maybe a supplemenatry list with videos that only apprear on the old list. Like a "up and comming video list" which is calaculated how the old top 10% was. Could make this shorter as well. Like only 20 videos or so. After a video establishes itself on the main 10% it would get removed or if the reviews fell down as a result of more scrutiny. Could be a nice way of helping lesser-established creators out. Just an Idea.
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Postby mckeed » Wed May 05, 2004 10:25 am

Also, maybe we should combine videos that are co-created on the list as well. For instance, This is the same video as they worked on it togeather and have different amounts of oppinions.

67 VegettoEX (Michael LaBrie) Alone in the World 9.09 30
67 MeriC (Meri Cantoni) Alone in the World 9.09 28

One thing is that they have different ammount of ops. They probally should be combined to give a more accurate score for the video and it should only take up one line.
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Postby Phade » Wed May 05, 2004 12:31 pm

Hey,

With the old method of a strait average, it was possible, for example, for a group of DBZ fans to collaborate and put all 10's on a mediocre video to make it to the top of the list instantly. Should the video be on the #1 spot? No, not really. The new system helps take care of that. I'll try to explain how this works.

downwithpants has posted a mathematical technical definition of what is going on with the calculations, but I'll try to explain further. Here's the formulas:

old score = avg(compscore + overall + review)
new score = (votes ÷ (votes + min_votes)) × old_score + (min_votes ÷ (votes + min_votes)) × avg(all videos)

The new score formula has two parts which are added together:

(votes ÷ (votes + min_votes)) × old_score

and

(min_votes ÷ (votes + min_votes)) × avg(all videos).

Each part is a ratio multiplied by either the old_score or the average of all videos. With few opinions (ex. 1 opinion), the overall average has the greatest weight:

(1/(1+7))*old_score = 1/8 * old_score

while

(7/1+7)*overall_avg = 7/8 * overall_avg

If you'll notice that since we are adding the two parts together, 1/8 + 7/8 = 1, which means that we are getting a whole score.

As far as the average goes, this means that, mathematically, any new video is assumed be be an average video until proven otherwise. As the video gets more opinions (ex. 50 opinions), the average of the video has more weight than the overall average:

(50/(50+7))*old_score = 50/57 * old_score

while

(7/50+7)*overall_avg = 7/57 * overall_avg

By this time, the actual average of the video is dominating the value of the new score. If your average is above average, your video will march up the rankings. If your average is below average, your video will march down the rankings.

If we go back to the buttmunch DBZ fanboy example who are trying to artificially push a video to the top of the list, here's what happens at 7 opinions of all 10s:

current overall average = 7.406224807350

(7/(7+7))*10 + (7/(7+7))*7.406224807350 = 5.00000 + 3.70311 = 8.70311 = 8.70

So instead of the video taking the #1 spot, the video takes a much lower position. Say the video reaches 30 opinions and the average is a little more sane at 8:

(30/(30+7))*8 + (7/(30+7))*7.406224807350 = 6.48649 + 1.401178 = 7.887668 = 7.89

At 50 opinions and the average still being 8, the new score looks like this:

(50/(50+7))*8 + (7/(50+7))*7.406224807350 = 7.01754 + 0.909534 = 7.927074 = 7.93

This method has now prevented an artifical score inflation by a bunch of fanboys, but then yields a score closer to the actual average as the number of opinions grows. The more opinions a video has, the more valid the score becomes.

I hope this explanation helps.

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Postby mckeed » Wed May 05, 2004 12:37 pm

What are "votes" and "min votes" I still don't understand what a vote is.
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Postby godix » Wed May 05, 2004 12:40 pm

A week or two ago I went through the top 10% and downloaded whatever I hadn't seen. A lot of what I downloaded was crap that I assume got up there just because eight of the creators friends were incredibly nice in their reviews. After Phade did this change I went and downloaded whatever I didn't have on the list again. I can't say I liked all of them but this time there wasn't one listed that made me think 'WTF? How did this get on this list?' I prefer the list to be what it claims to be, the top 10% of all videos made and this recent change seems to be doing a better job at it than before. Thanks Phade.
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Postby Phade » Wed May 05, 2004 12:40 pm

Hey,

Sorry, votes = number of opinions; min_votes = minimum number of opinions to get onto the list. I had copy/pasted and was trying to use small words so that it would fit on one line. That didn't work... :-\

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Postby dwchang » Wed May 05, 2004 12:56 pm

I for one understand the argument that lesser known vids won't get as much exposure since well...I took on the devil's advocate and debated the exact same thing with Phade earlier. I don't honestly believe in it, but I did present it.

It's a valid concern, BUT Phade has already provided an answer in the Star Scale. That will contain any vid with even 5 stars and as we have seen over the year that vids come and go near the top every week. There's your answer. If a video truly is good, it'll remain near the top of the star scale and eventually climb in the top 10% list as well.

Also as Phade and Zarxrax have implied, a good video WILL make the list in time. Alan provided plenty of new vids that are near the top and from (then) unknown creators. There videos were good and thus stood against the test of a multitude of opinions.

This method may seem a bit harsh, but think about it, shouldn't such a list be harsh and be open to such procedures (esp. with how well it has been explained)? I think people are more or less arguing about the possibility a newer vid may not make the list, but that's a lot less likely than a bunch of vids "undeserving" vids making it. We already KNOW that happens right? This would prevent such a thing and shouldn't a video need to "work" to get there?

My prediction is that the list will remain fairly stable near the top and a few times a year, a video that is spectacular will continually climb to the top spots. This makes perfect sense compared to the way the old system worked where a vid could start at the top and move up or down. I don't understand why people would find it offensive that a good video has to work it's way up. That makes sense if it's a good video yes?

Also I don't mean to sound like ass, but there's no way to say it....let's be honest, how many videos a year truly deserve top spots like that? Again, this list is meant to be strict and harsh. We want it to be accurate yes? If that's the case, how many Right Now's, Euphoria's, Tainted Donuts, etc. come out in one year (and no I don't mean the type of video, but a video that just captures everyone in the community)?

If you HONESTLY believe you've been "wronged" by this list or something, then prove it. Get more opinions and work your way up there. It sure as hell is more valid (to me) than just popping up near the top and frustrating people who download the vids and expect it to be good. I for one used to not download vids on the Top 10% list with less than 20 opinions.

I don't think it's too much to ask to make the list harsher and more accurate. You guys are basically saying "OMG my video with 8/10/20/XY opinions isn't on the list anymore" or as Snhknives parodied "OMG it's harder to be good!!11" He obviously didn't mean that, but he did voice the biggest complaint, which is in reality, the reason the list exists. To highlight good videos to viewers. Phade's changes coincide exactly with that purpose.

And in the end, you guys do realize we're arguing about an interweb list right? ;)
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Postby mckeed » Wed May 05, 2004 1:02 pm

ok, this makes a whole lot more sense now. I still think there should be an "up and comming" list though. Yeah, people could still stack it, but they would get shot down pretty quick if they sucked since it would be a much smaller list. Just my 2 cents.
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Postby dwchang » Wed May 05, 2004 1:05 pm

mckeed wrote:ok, this makes a whole lot more sense now. I still think there should be an "up and comming" list though. Yeah, people could still stack it, but they would get shot down pretty quick if they sucked since it would be a much smaller list. Just my 2 cents.


Again, Star Scale and weekly Star Scale. :roll:
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Postby mckeed » Wed May 05, 2004 1:50 pm

dwchang wrote:Again, Star Scale and weekly Star Scale. :roll:


Again, You don't quite understand. :roll: Let me explain this since the logic escapes you.

Well, for one, not everyone puts their videos up on local. So that thorws your star scale out the window for people who don't put up their videos for local. Not everyone on the current top 10% has their video's up for local download. Most of them do, but not all. I even found one that isn't availiable for download at all. Using a method to identify videos that automatically throws videos out cause they aren't local isn't a very fair system.
Second, Weekly is just weekly and also relies on a local video. What if something slowly gains momentum over a period of months? The normal star scale isn't enough. For one its not really detailed enough to give any real worth of a video. The same "stacking" that could take place with the old scale can and would take place here. Since now they can't stack to get on the top 10%, i would imagine people will start doing it here as well. You could argue this gets rid of opinions that just try to give all 10's. That might be true. Or people will just realize they just need more people to get on the top 15% list. So they go on the internet or local DBZ board and find 16-30 people willing to do this for them. Harder? Yes, but still doable.

Thirdly, a system that relies on opinions encorages people to get opinions to someday make the number of opinions that gets them on the top 10%. The star method is an indirect method at best. If were going to change a system, why not address some issues for why some people liked the old system. It mainly was just exposure. I know my only video started very low on the list and as people saw it, i started getting more opinions on it, which caused it to slowly move up the list. So why not create a supplementary system to the top 10% that accomplishes just that. You argue that the star scales do this. I don't agree that it is the best way of acomplishing this.

I'm not saying the current system is bad. I think its very accurate. I just think there should be a better way of spotlighting videos. That is all.
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Postby dwchang » Wed May 05, 2004 2:02 pm

mckeed wrote:I'm not saying the current system is bad. I think its very accurate. I just think there should be a better way of spotlighting videos. That is all.


Then make a suggestion in the site suggestions, that's why they're there.

By continuing to argue within THIS thread, it just makes it look like you're adamantly against this change and I know you don't mean to, but it just makes you look like you're saying "OMG my video with XY opinions isn't ranked as highly as the videos everyone loves and have 200 opinions validating them." I know that isn't the case and you're trying to highlight that newer vids aren't favored, but it sure doesn't come across that way if you continually argue the same things.

In all honesty, if you agree that it's accurate, that ends this argument. If you feel that we should also have a system to highlight new videos, then by all means suggest it...I for one would welcome such a change, but don't know how to implement it and thus haven't suggested anything.

Sorry if this comes across incorrectly, but if you read the replies in the last two pages, it's just one giant circle...then again a lot of .org discussions are like that ;).
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