Evangelion Episode 23 Director's Cut proves the following...

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Postby )v(ajin Koji » Fri Mar 05, 2004 2:37 pm

UncleMilo wrote:
the Black Monarch wrote:Milo, milo, milo... when will you learn to stop watching Eva under the influence of LSD?


I don't have to justify myself to an idiot.

-Uncle Milo


Then justify yourself to those of us who are not idiots, unless you think we all are. :?
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Postby UncleMilo » Fri Mar 05, 2004 2:43 pm

To HeartbreakerByZep,

I wanted you to know that I still have no answer for you.
I asked two people involved with Evangelion about Adam and the EVAs and Lilith and the EVAs


One person said that as far as they knew, the EVAs were made from Adam, and not Lilith, which matches what you said. However, they really didn't have any answers to my questions about when the genetic material was gathered or how the material got to US and Germany.

ANother person involved with EVA pointed out that the human race comes from Lilith and that the Angels come from Adam. He said that Kaworu had been confused why we would use EVAs made from Adam (the very force we're fighting) but when he saw that it was not Adam that was stored in NERV, but Lilith... that he understood. That the EVAs are made from Lilith and not Adam.

Since I got these two conflicting answers, I have to state that now I am unsure about which Angel, Adam or Lilith, the EVAs are made from. I still believe that it makes more sense that the EVAs were made from Lilith, since Lilith is on hand (as it were) to get genetic material from, not to mention that Rei is cloned from genetic material from Lilith. Furthermore, I still fall back on the Children of Lilith from the Khabala, whom were used for the designs of the EVAs.

However, I wanted you to know that I did do the checking I promised I would do and have come up with conflicting answers. Since EVA is a complicated series, I will always admit that I am never 100% sure of things when it comes to the Surface Story of Evangelion as I am not as well versed in the Khaballa as some of my friends are.

Sorry I couldn't get a better answer for you.

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Postby UncleMilo » Fri Mar 05, 2004 3:09 pm

)v(ajin Koji wrote:
UncleMilo wrote:
the Black Monarch wrote:Milo, milo, milo... when will you learn to stop watching Eva under the influence of LSD?


I don't have to justify myself to an idiot.

-Uncle Milo


Then justify yourself to those of us who are not idiots, unless you think we all are. :?


Sorry, Koji. I just am really getting fed up by Black Monarch. Since he didn't get the TV series, he thinks anyone who claims they did are liars and on drugs.

Anyway... most of my comments can be taken straight from the show.
All you have to do is watch it.

I rely on my human ability to reach conclusions based on the information provided. You know... if A is greater than B and B is greater than C, one can assume that A is greater than C even if no one actually tells you this.


Rei is a clone of Yui - This is explained in the show. Why do I need to prove it?

Rei is revealed as being linked with the Angels in the show. She even gives off a registration of being an Angel in the TV show. One can reach the conclusion that she's connected to Lilith. This becomes evident in the EoE movie (even though I don't care for the movie) when Lilith welcomes back Rei as Lilith absorbs Rei. - Since it's shown, why do I need to prove it?

Therefore, for Rei to be both these things, she is obviously a clone made up of material from Yui and Lilith. Simple deduction there.

Furthermore... it is my belief that Rei represents the 6th Sephira. This is because most of the religious material comes from the Khaballa. Since the 6th Sephira is symbolic for (among other things) the height of man touching the realm of divinity, it would make sense that Rei be partly human and partly angelic.


I don't know what else I need to prove... but it's all there in the show.

Black Monarch claims to be an expert on the show, but then accuses me of taking drugs because I thought the show was straight forward and that the movie was confusing... and his argument was that the TV show made no sense. So, if it made no sense to him, how can he claim to be an expert or that people who understood the show don't know what they're talking about?

Furthermore... I have always said that I'm not an EXPERT on the subject. That I have done a lot of discussing of this show with many people... People from ADV, people from Gainax, friends, and people who are better versed in the Khaballa then I am. I have used my own education in the language of film and my knowledge of philosophy and psychology to seek out my own answers.

I consider myself well versed in the show and anything I say is backed up by the information I have found in the show combined with knowledge related to the themes in the show. It still might be wrong, but I don't just pull things out of the air and make them up. I have genuine reasons for stating the things I do about the show and if I am given reason to question these things, I will reconsider my statements rather than jumping to name calling. Of course, if I'm confronted with name-calling, I will simply reply in kind as there's no point in even discussing the themes of EVA with that kind of a person.

Now...

I don't come to these boards often enough to maintain steady discussion and I always post how I am happy to discuss EVA via E-Mail as it makes discussion more possible.

For now, I'm done because I don't have the time to type anymore.

-Uncle Milo
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Postby LittleKefalos » Sat Mar 06, 2004 5:03 pm

Ok this has nothing to do with the most recent posts, but I thought I'd mention a few things.

First, in terms of where do the sould come from for the Eva's aside from those we know I want to mention three things which are somewhat related.

1. Depending upon your belief system, assuming you believe in souls [this series certainly is one of those], some people believe that the soul can not find rest in the afterlife, etc. unless it recieves proper burial rights. Thus explaining ghosts etc. [note this partial sentence is not reffering to the series although it could if you want it to] So if someone is dead there soul is not just gone necessarily.

2. No where is it said or suggeted in this series that a soul is indivisble so therefore one can lose part of one's soul while retaining part of it, this is what I think happened to Asuka's mother. She went insane because she lost part of her soul to Eva unit 2 (a sacrifice for her daughter?). This is what I believe, not necessarily a fact. This view is very valid I think because one needs a soul to have an AT field thus without a soul you don't have an AT field which would allow you to continue your physical existence (also why when people die their bodies don't become LCL--because their souls have not entirely left yet).

3. The memorial graveyard that Gendo and Shinji visit has only headstones no bodies are buried there (it is said by Gendo). Meaning that these people are now either LCL (is this the LCL they're using?) or that these people are kept somewhere else or that they are just unretrievable. It is clear what happened to Yui. Perhaps they were able to capture the souls of the mothers of the other children in class 2-A (i think, isn't this the same class used in Kare Kano? let me get to this soon..) and use them how they wanted. They had the soul or part of the soul of Toji's mom? Most likely. Did they use it, or for that matter use it correctly? Probably not because after all an Angel was able to take over the angel, perhaps Toji's mom had a weak soul/AT field? anyways not too important.


This is something else...



Is "His and Her Circumstances" like Eva?

Perhaps spoilers for Kare Kano, i.e. "His and Her Circumstances"!!!!!!!!!!




you have been warned....





Ok the classroom number is the same. It is almost like Shinji type personality and Asuka type personality (less anti-social in both cases, but just as introverted) are allowed to fall in love. Arima does well without trying, but is unhappy in his success and has had a troublesome childhood and is looking for acceptance. Yukino works really hard to prove she is the best and needs to get noticed needs to feel she is the best. (i.e. Shinji and Asuka) Since they don't have to worry about the end of the world, fighting Angels etc. they are allowed to fall in love somewhat normally and they do. It changes their personalities.

Also, note in one of the later episodes it becomes freaky for a bit, and when this happened I was like oh no, not Eva again.... (I do like Eva, but if you watch this show you'll realize why I felt this way at this point) and then it doesn't become Eva, thank goodness, but also it doesn't end. Dammit.

At anyrate the characters internalizing their conflicts which result with how others percieve them, etc. is central to this story as it is to Eva. Finally, the stop lights symbolism in this show reminded me of the "I will not run away" Shinji comments and his disregarding of them. Sometimes Shinji was go, sometimes he was stop, sometimes he was yellow light. Ok this sounds stupid but if you've seen the show I think you'll know what I mean.
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Postby HeartbreakerByZep » Sat Mar 06, 2004 8:18 pm

UncleMilo wrote:To HeartbreakerByZep,

I wanted you to know that I still have no answer for you.
I asked two people involved with Evangelion about Adam and the EVAs and Lilith and the EVAs


One person said that as far as they knew, the EVAs were made from Adam, and not Lilith, which matches what you said. However, they really didn't have any answers to my questions about when the genetic material was gathered or how the material got to US and Germany.

ANother person involved with EVA pointed out that the human race comes from Lilith and that the Angels come from Adam. He said that Kaworu had been confused why we would use EVAs made from Adam (the very force we're fighting) but when he saw that it was not Adam that was stored in NERV, but Lilith... that he understood. That the EVAs are made from Lilith and not Adam.

Since I got these two conflicting answers, I have to state that now I am unsure about which Angel, Adam or Lilith, the EVAs are made from. I still believe that it makes more sense that the EVAs were made from Lilith, since Lilith is on hand (as it were) to get genetic material from, not to mention that Rei is cloned from genetic material from Lilith. Furthermore, I still fall back on the Children of Lilith from the Khabala, whom were used for the designs of the EVAs.

However, I wanted you to know that I did do the checking I promised I would do and have come up with conflicting answers. Since EVA is a complicated series, I will always admit that I am never 100% sure of things when it comes to the Surface Story of Evangelion as I am not as well versed in the Khaballa as some of my friends are.

Sorry I couldn't get a better answer for you.

-Uncle Milo


Thanks for trying, anyway :D

I don't see how Rei was created from genetic Lilith material, since Lilith is far from human. Lilith did give birth to humans though, which is why it could make sense if Lilith produced Rei (many beleive this happened during the Yui/01 contact expirement) possibly in a similar manner as how Evangelion 01 may have been created, being literally born from Lilith. I don't know who (Adam/Lilith) the EVAs came from, at this moment in time I can't think of anything that would distinguish either way.
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Postby Kalium » Sat Mar 06, 2004 8:38 pm

It is Eva. It doesn't need to make real-world sense.
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Postby HeartbreakerByZep » Sat Mar 06, 2004 9:02 pm

Kalium wrote:It is Eva. It doesn't need to make real-world sense.


True, but it can, so why not?
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Postby Kalium » Sun Mar 07, 2004 12:36 am

HeartbreakerByZep wrote:
Kalium wrote:It is Eva. It doesn't need to make real-world sense.


True, but it can, so why not?


It takes more effort on the part of the creaters for it to.
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Postby the Black Monarch » Sun Mar 07, 2004 5:28 am

UncleMilo wrote: Since he didn't get the TV series, he thinks anyone who claims they did are liars and on drugs.


No, not everyone. Only you.

And although it toook me quite some time, I must "get" the TV series a HELL of a lot better than you do, because it is repeatedly and explicitly stated that Unit 01 is based on Lillith and all the other Evas are based on Adam, but you have somehow managed to avoid noticing such things. I also have been hanging around the AnimeNation forums a lot, and those guys have concept art scans and working knowledge of Japanese and lots of other cool stuff, and I've been learning a lot from there... It turns out that for whatever reason, there's a 15-km-wide particle collider only a few miles northeast of Tokyo-3. And Rei has a washing machine located outdoors, on her balcony (meaning she probably never uses it). It's amazing how much useless knowledge there is pertaining to this show...

UncleMilo wrote:I rely on my human ability to reach conclusions based on the information provided. You know... if A is greater than B and B is greater than C, one can assume that A is greater than C even if no one actually tells you this.


Actually, so far you've been relying on your ability to pull half of what you say out of your ass, and get the other half by misinterpreting lines and jumping to conclusions.

UncleMilo wrote:Rei is a clone of Yui - This is explained in the show. Why do I need to prove it?


Because it's NOT explained in the show. In fact, the idea of a Yui/Rei connection is hinted at in only the most vague and questionable of ways. I'll even go through the list for you:
Ep15 - Shinji has just found out that Rei knows he was staring at her. He says that he believes she would make a good mother based on the way she squeezed a rag. Shinji could be telling the truth, but unless he has some wierd oedipal rag fetish, chances are he's scrambling to come up with an explanation for his behavior other than that he has feelings for her.
Ep21 - Dr. Naoko Agaki says that Rei looks a lot like Yui, an observation that obviously has nothing to do with the fact that they have the same haircut and bears absolutely no resemblance to when Shinji said the exact same line about Ritsuko and Misato in Ep08. Anyway, few minutes later, when she's talking to Rei, she starts seeing the world in tie-dye colors and at funky angles, and chucks herself off a very high ledge. It's not terribly difficult to figure out that she is having some kind of psychotic episode.
Some other episode - Shinji is laying in bed, and he compares Rei to his mother. This is, IMO, the strongest evidence so far of the connection, or at least it would be if not for the context: Shinji is comparing his father's manipulation of Rei to his father's possible manipulation of his mother (in the past or in Unit 01, it's not clear which). Case solved.

And that's just about all the evidence. Unless you can point me to a line where someone says "Hey Shinji! She's a clone of your mum!" or "Gee, my romantic attraction to Ikari-kun seems strangely tempered by maternal instinct," I'm going to have to reserve judgement on the issue.

UncleMilo wrote:Rei is revealed as being linked with the Angels in the show. She even gives off a registration of being an Angel in the TV show. One can reach the conclusion that she's connected to Lilith. This becomes evident in the EoE movie (even though I don't care for the movie) when Lilith welcomes back Rei as Lilith absorbs Rei. - Since it's shown, why do I need to prove it? Therefore, for Rei to be both these things, she is obviously a clone made up of material from Yui and Lilith. Simple deduction there.


"Rei has some conveniently unspecified connection to Lillith and may or may not have a similarly unspecified connection to Yui; therefore, she is obviously a clone of both at the same time, even though such a thing is completely impossible and steps outside the definition of cloning"

Yeah, that makes sense. :roll:

UncleMilo wrote:Black Monarch claims to be an expert on the show, but then accuses me of taking drugs because I thought the show was straight forward and that the movie was confusing... and his argument was that the TV show made no sense. So, if it made no sense to him, how can he claim to be an expert or that people who understood the show don't know what they're talking about?


Well, since I never claimed to be an expert, and I accused you of being on drugs for completely different reasons from the ones you specified, and I came to completely different conclusions from the ones that you accused me of coming to, your whole paragraph there holds about as much water as a correctly oriented umbrella.

UncleMilo wrote:I consider myself well versed in the show and anything I say is backed up by the information I have found in the show combined with knowledge related to the themes in the show. It still might be wrong, but I don't just pull things out of the air and make them up.


Yes, you do. I believe the point about Kaworu being a clone of Adam has already been addressed by the others, and now I've taken care of the rest of your not-even-half-baked conclusions.

Thanks for playing, though.
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Postby LittleKefalos » Sun Mar 07, 2004 11:39 pm

Ok seeing as everyone ignored my previous statements due to the greater desire to bicker.... oh well..... I have a simpler question/statement/idea etc. whatever you want to be.

Unless it was a mistake by the animators, which it very well could be...
We see Rei cry inside her Eva unit 0 just before she "sacrifices" herself to save Shinji. The point is she cries.
However she is supposedly in LCL so she shouldn't be able to cry liquid tears which fall and form on her legs and around her eyes like liquid would in a gas, not in another liquid (unless we are to ignore the laws of the physical world).
So thus either a mistake was made by the animators, or Rei's unit 0 Eva does not have LCL in it during this episode (it is clear that she usually has LCL).
Which means that Rei can pilot the Eva without LCL? Much like Kawouro (don't know the spelling) pilots unit 2 without being in physical contact with it or how Shinji does the same on a few occaisons (unless it is his mother protecting him).

So what do you guys think is it a mistake or rather an intentional revelation? If it was intentional doesn't anyone at Nerv notice that she doesn't have LCL in her Eva? What's going on?
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Postby LittleKefalos » Sun Mar 07, 2004 11:41 pm

Oh I forgot to mention, my previous post is relevent to what is being talked about because of the question about Rei's true nature.
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Postby Tab. » Mon Mar 08, 2004 12:08 am

Most likely a mistake. In Ep 18, Shinji gets in his Eva in his school uniform, but in Ep 19, when they're trying to recover him, it's his plug suit that's floating in the LCL. Similar kind of simple mistake.
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Postby Daio Kaji » Mon Mar 08, 2004 12:28 am

LittleKefalos wrote:Unless it was a mistake by the animators, which it very well could be...
We see Rei cry inside her Eva unit 0 just before she "sacrifices" herself to save Shinji. The point is she cries.
However she is supposedly in LCL so she shouldn't be able to cry liquid tears which fall and form on her legs and around her eyes like liquid would in a gas, not in another liquid (unless we are to ignore the laws of the physical world).
So thus either a mistake was made by the animators, or Rei's unit 0 Eva does not have LCL in it during this episode (it is clear that she usually has LCL).

...it's LCL, it's always there, it's a fake substance, just so you don't just skim over my post, it's FAKE
so we can't just assume we know the chemical makeup of Lillith's blood (LCL) (angel blood)
since we don't know the makeup of angel blood, i think it's safe for the show animators to take creative liberties and make it possible for non-LCL material (including liquids) to fall freely through LCL as if it weren't there, after all, the pilots simply can't control the evas without the LCL interface, it's the purpose of LCL... unless ur a full breed angel like Kaoru
LittleKefalos wrote:Which means that Rei can pilot the Eva without LCL? Much like Kawouro (don't know the spelling) pilots unit 2 without being in physical contact with it

Rei does not appear to have (probably cause she doesn't have) the ability to control an eva without being in physical contact with it... Kaoru can do it most likely because he IS an angel.. kinda like a higher power... better than a halfling

LittleKefalos wrote:or how Shinji does the same on a few occaisons (unless it is his mother protecting him).

shinji doesn't do the same thing... it's his mum all those times
LittleKefalos wrote:So what do you guys think is it a mistake or rather an intentional revelation? If it was intentional doesn't anyone at Nerv notice that she doesn't have LCL in her Eva? What's going on?

it's a mistake (possibly) of the show... LCL is not a clear substance, i'm pretty darn sure (and no black monarch.. i don't have proof of this) that the entry plugs have special lighting in them that allow the pilot to see through the LCL in order to actually see the display screens

either way, the LCL is there, but it'd be pointless to have the pilots looking directly at blood, so the series makes it possible for the pilots to see through the LCL
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Postby Tab. » Mon Mar 08, 2004 12:44 am

Ah, don't forget that in EoE Asuka bleeds freely through the LCL, so apparently the animators took no regard for its liquid properties most of the time.
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Postby SS5_Majin_Bebi » Mon Mar 08, 2004 1:58 am

Tab. wrote:Ah, don't forget that in EoE Asuka bleeds freely through the LCL, so apparently the animators took no regard for its liquid properties most of the time.


Plus if the LCL pressure/density is less than that of water or blood, its quite possible for other liquid drops to form and move about, usually down.
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