Winnowing

This forum is for the announcement and discussion of anime music video contests.

Postby MCWagner » Tue Jul 22, 2003 10:15 am

On the one hand, I find it somewhat depressing that the bar is being raised in this hobby to the point where the base beginner doesn't even get a showing any more. Really, this is a hobby, and someone who dabbles around with it should be able to show off his work at a con without investing a lot of money in it. We're not the Oscars. In the rare case where someone shows an enormous amount of talent when his source isn't all that great (static or logos or subtitles) the work should be able to shine out past the insufficent tools. Disqualifying a work based on some trifling technicality is a rather sorry thing to do. (We'll ignore for the moment the use of hard subtitles when it actually fits with the video theme...like Hairston's Nadia trilogy.)

On the other hand, I think this is a sort of non-issue. Anyone who gets into the hobby for a little while will notice how ugly these station logos and subtitles are, and how much people dislike them, and do their best to avoid them. (Either that, or they're incredibly dense.) I know my first video "End of the World" had subtitles and junk all over the place and it still won a best tech award back at AWA3. Since then, of course, I do my best to avoid that. As far as "rewarding people who buy their footage"....A) that's not really our job, that's the DVD company's job, B) that's not rewarding those who buy DVDs, that's punishing those who don't...not the same thing, and C) the reward in AMVs for buying the DVD is having better, clearer source. So the reward already applies in letting you make better-looking videos, and thus giving you a better chance in the contest. As stated above, the people who have trouble with subtitles or network logos are usually beginners whose entry needs work in other areas more severely. You don't have to disqualify on the basis of a technicality, when disqualifying on the basis of quality would be more honest, and more helpful to the newbie improving.

Finally, although they've been releasing a bunch of great old series on DVD, there are still a lot that haven't been touched and are, at best, only available to the US fan on fansubs. Try hunting down original Harlock without subs, original Cyborg 009, Future Boy Conan, hell, try finding a full set of "Tico and Nanami" ANYWHERE. It's possible, but exceedingly difficult and we can't expect everyone to get lucky.
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Postby BishounenStalker » Tue Jul 22, 2003 10:35 am

I think you're missing the point a bit. Nobody's saying you can't use fansubs or video captures from network TV if you don't have the funds to buy DVDs. What the new rule is saying is that if you're going to use them, remove the network/fansubber logos because they're ugly and distracting. It's like any kind of art: presentation is EVERYTHING. You wouldn't want to display a drawing in an art gallery with coffee stains from breakfast on it, no matter how good it is. And you wouldn't want to display an AMV at a Con with the CN logo in ther corner for the same reason: it gives the impression that you don't care enough about your work to clean it up and make it look as good as possible.
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Postby OmniStrata » Tue Jul 22, 2003 10:35 am

This will sound goofy coming from someone who edits most of his vids using digisub source [that and when I edit an amv, the domestics aren't out yet...]

I know how to dodge subs VERY damn well and I only have one logo'ed video online... [My 2nd "better" Boys Be Romance vid] Though if you people watch it, I don't think the logo is enough to warrant the fact that the vid isn't THAT n00bish and that I did edit my ass off despite the fact that it's my only linear vid... [no fx, no fades, just cuts]
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Postby Kai Stromler » Tue Jul 22, 2003 10:59 am

Boys Be... has been out (to 6th volume) on both VHS and R2 DVD since December 2000. (links go to VHS, since not everyone's DVD setup will do R2)

vol 1
vol 2
vol 3
vol 4
vol 5
vol 6

I'm not gacking you or anything, just pointing out that there's no real excuse for bugged Boys Be videos. I'm guilty too.

It all comes down to the level of effort you want to put into your final project: if the plan is to make the video earth-shattering from the start, you'll track down unbugged source and pay whatever you have to for it. If you just do it for a lark and it turns out killer, the video may be good enough to make people not care about the bugs.

Ideally, the idea of using unbugged source should get the same currency in the community that the idea of buying CDs to rip songs from has; perhaps honored more in the breach than in the observance, but current enough so that people know they shouldn't, even if and when they do.

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Postby AbsoluteDestiny » Tue Jul 22, 2003 12:08 pm

Kai Stromler wrote:Boys Be... has been out (to 6th volume) on both VHS and R2 DVD since December 2000. (links go to VHS, since not everyone's DVD setup will do R2)


Not to mention that the official Indoensian release, which is a Region 0 DVD and has english subtitles has been out since 2001 I think.
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Postby Kai Stromler » Tue Jul 22, 2003 12:11 pm

AbsoluteDestiny wrote:
Not to mention that the official Indoensian release, which is a Region 0 DVD and has english subtitles has been out since 2001 I think.


nifty....gonna have to see about ordering that.

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Postby MCWagner » Tue Jul 22, 2003 12:12 pm

Kai Stromler wrote:
Ideally, the idea of using unbugged source should get the same currency in the community that the idea of buying CDs to rip songs from has; perhaps honored more in the breach than in the observance, but current enough so that people know they shouldn't, even if and when they do.


This, I think, is fairer. My objection was mostly to the "should videos with the network logo be disqualified automatically" aspect. If it's a matter of narrowing down the field, OK, but if it's from an attitude of "we're not going to waste time watching this video if it's not up to a certain level of technical quality" I think that's a bit unfair.
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Postby AbsoluteDestiny » Tue Jul 22, 2003 12:23 pm

Admittedly when I posted at the start of this thread I was playing devils advocate a little.

It's true that we shouldnt be so high and mighty about the technical aspects of videos. These elements do not designate the entertainment quality of the video.

However, I do think it is up to a contest to decide whether or not they want prescreening to take technical issues into account as a measure of quality. If that is decided upon it should be specified - I'd have to qualms with a contest that took that approach. It's just a different way of judging quality, rightly or wrongly.
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Postby MCWagner » Tue Jul 22, 2003 12:45 pm

Well...I'd have artistic qualms with a contest that disqualified on relatively minor technical flaws (as opposed to major qualms like "destroyed my VCR" or "has inaudible audio). Taking them into account is expected, especially if there will be a limited prescreening block. Disqualifying them automatically is less so.

That, however, is my opinion. It's perfectly fair if it's specified in the rules. It's their contest, they can conduct it however they like. Hell, we have to have rather stringent submission rules just so we don't spend six hours trying to get the file to play on our system.
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Postby Vlad G Pohnert » Tue Jul 22, 2003 1:46 pm

MCWagner wrote:Well...I'd have artistic qualms with a contest that disqualified on relatively minor technical flaws (as opposed to major qualms like "destroyed my VCR" or "has inaudible audio). Taking them into account is expected, especially if there will be a limited prescreening block. Disqualifying them automatically is less so.

That, however, is my opinion. It's perfectly fair if it's specified in the rules. It's their contest, they can conduct it however they like. Hell, we have to have rather stringent submission rules just so we don't spend six hours trying to get the file to play on our system.


Personally, the two contest I'm running this year I try to encourage people to enter and not disqualify them on quality alone. I feel it's much harder to make a good video then to fix the quality of a video. That is something eveyone can learn and it's a shame to discourage people with real talent just becasue the may have not mastered ouputing better quality!

NOw, taking that into account, YES it has to be reasonably viewable. There really is not point to screeening a video at a contest where you can't see the great artistic qalities if you can't even make out the picture!

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Postby Cybermat » Thu Jul 24, 2003 4:39 pm

MCWagner wrote:Taking them into account is expected, especially if there will be a limited prescreening block. Disqualifying them automatically is less so.

The reason I bring up the question is that, as the amv contest coordinator for Otakon (at least for the next few weeks), I'm drowning in music video submissions. Screening out the amvs with junk like TV/fansubber logos all over their footage would seem to be an effective way to screen out the most cheaply made amvs. We already DQ amvs with leftover subtitles randomly popping up all over the place, so it seems like basically the same thing from my point of view.

I'm not trying to assert that it's impossible for anybody to make a good amv out of low quality footage; I'm sure that a motivated person could manage it... but most motivated people would get good quality footage to begin with.
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Postby MCWagner » Thu Jul 24, 2003 5:07 pm

You'll have to excuse me, as I've never been to Otakon (damn job), but I don't know the details of the system you use. IIRC, you have a pre-screening, and the audience votes on the winners, right? Well, you already have to prune the submissions way down in order to have a reasonable number to show in the prescreening, right? (Really, I don't know.)

Are they pruned for artistic or technical quality? Stuff with low tech quality is generally by newcomers, so they are usually lower on the artistic scale too. In order to evaluate the tech quality of the video, you have to watch it, right? So you could judge the artistic quality at the same time. It seems to me, from the 10,000 foot perpective, that, if pruning need be done, then doing it soley on the artistic scale would be fairer, and more helpful to creators.

Is the blanket DQing for specific (albiet rather glaring) tech flaws just a matter of convenience? I honestly don't know, I'm afraid. But if it is, it seems a slight disservice to the contestants. Their video may -play- alright (avoiding disasterous technical problems) and be artistically good, but they get DQed for not owning the DVDs.

Eh. MHO.
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Postby Cybermat » Thu Jul 24, 2003 6:54 pm

MCWagner wrote:IIRC, you have a pre-screening, and the audience votes on the winners, right? Well, you already have to prune the submissions way down in order to have a reasonable number to show in the prescreening, right? (Really, I don't know.)

No problem. Here's how it goes:
0. We receive a bunch of AMVs from anime fans. After the deadline, we stop checking the mailbox for new submissions.
1. All the submissions that can be physically played are compiled onto tapes which are shown at the pre-convention amv screening sessions and evaluated.
2. After the prescreenings are done, the AMVs that were observed to not follow one or more of the rules of the contest get disqualified. "Not advancing to the finals" should not be confused with "being disqualified": being disqualified means that they flat-out don't get shown at the con (approximately 9% on average).
3. All the remaining AMVs are compiled onto another set of tapes which get shown at the con in the general amv screenings (in the past known as the "overflow"), whether they were chosen for the AMV Contest or not, or even whether people hated them or not.
4. The amvs with the highest evaluations also get shown in the AMV Contest & voted on by the members of the convention. The amv in each category with the highest number of votes wins the category.

MCWagner wrote:Are they pruned for artistic or technical quality? Stuff with low tech quality is generally by newcomers, so they are usually lower on the artistic scale too.

I'm not sure if I understand what you mean by the word 'pruning' exactly... do you mean A) not allowing an AMV to advance to the finals, or B) not allowing an AMV to be considered for the contest at all?

Regarding evaluating Artistic vs. Technical merits, we're not that sophisticated... in pre-screenings we just ask people what they think of each video overall: +2, +1, 0, -1, -2. (Come to think of it, doing 4, 3, 2, 1, 0 would work just as well.) Evaluating separate components -- like technical flaws, editing proficiency, originality of concept, etc. -- takes longer and also raises issues of weighting each component in the calculation of the final (scalar) overall result.
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Postby VicBond007 » Thu Jul 24, 2003 8:03 pm

In addition to what Matt's said, the Otakon prescreening method is effective because it's designed around the final voting system. At Otakon, there are no judges, the audience is 100% in control of who wins what. The prescreening is open invitation, so in other words, that same audience that is in control at Otakon, determains what makes the final cut, so, in theory, the random sample of prescreeners "should" ideally pick out the videos that would be most enjoyable to the audience, since they themselves are just a general audience. The general audience doesn't sit there with a scorecard and rank the AMV in different categories, do some math, throw in a pythagorean theorum for fun (fanservice^2+LensFlares^2=enjoyment^2) and come up with a winner. If they like the video, it gets "high marks", if it hurts to watch, it gets low marks, just like in the prescreening system.

However, quite a few videos this year hurt to watch and take extra time to compile, so I guess what we're really looking for is something that a general audience finds distateful so we can eliminate those videos from the contest screening ahead of time.

Or maybe I'm just wrong. ^_^()
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Postby dokool » Thu Jul 24, 2003 8:38 pm

VicBond007 wrote:The prescreening is open invitation, so in other words, that same audience that is in control at Otakon, determains what makes the final cut, so, in theory, the random sample of prescreeners "should" ideally pick out the videos that would be most enjoyable to the audience, since they themselves are just a general audience.


I wouldn't call the prescreenings completely open. Sure, at KoP there were a few people from SOS, and I'm sure the NYC and UMCP screenings had people from the Terrapin Anime Club or whatever they call it, but for the most part, it was the editors who came out.


VicBond007 wrote:However, quite a few videos this year hurt to watch and take extra time to compile, so I guess what we're really looking for is something that a general audience finds distateful so we can eliminate those videos from the contest screening ahead of time.


I do agree with this, and I think waiting to make non-technical (i.e. NOT "the video is frozen") DQs until prescreenings is the fairest option. That way, there can be no complaints of fascism on the part of the contest coordinators. If a reasonably-sized group of anime fans agrees that the video should be DQed, then it's most likely a fair decision. The same goes in general for which videos make it and which don't.

IMHO, whether or not the video itself is good doesn't override technical issues. The syncs may be great, but they're lessened if I get distracted by pixels and macroblocking. As Vic said, some of the videos really were physically painful to watch. However, unless they had dirty words in the lyrics or had fansubs, they'll probably get shown in the general screenings, which is more than fair. Any editor who wants to compete will take the extra step to insure quality. I'm guessing most of the people who sent in pixellated entries would be happy to just get a general screening, and they should be given that. However, whether or not they should be allowed to compete is another story.

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