Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Critique

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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Post by seasons » Tue Jun 11, 2013 11:36 am

Fall_Child42 wrote:
Kionon wrote:NO.
woah, hold on a minute.

Why so simply negative to a different perspective?
Because he was being sarcastic. Or going out of his way to make a ridiculous comparison. Take your pick.

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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Post by aesling » Tue Jun 11, 2013 3:02 pm

Why is it a ridiculous comparison?
:ying:

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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Post by ReggieSmalls » Tue Jun 11, 2013 3:22 pm

seasons wrote:
Fall_Child42 wrote:
Kionon wrote:NO.
woah, hold on a minute.

Why so simply negative to a different perspective?
Because he was being sarcastic. Or going out of his way to make a ridiculous comparison. Take your pick.
Take it how you want to seasons I'm just bring up a quick point and just being a little bit funny about it. All I'm saying Kionon my dude is that you may be taking this whole thing a bit too far then you should be. We all know this type of thing goes on in most places but I don't think it applies here. Me bring up the race thing is shows how just a little crazy you're sounding on paper.
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Post by Kionon » Tue Jun 11, 2013 4:22 pm

ReggieSmalls wrote:Take it how you want to seasons I'm just bring up a quick point and just being a little bit funny about it. All I'm saying Kionon my dude is that you may be taking this whole thing a bit too far then you should be. We all know this type of thing goes on in most places but I don't think it applies here. Me bring up the race thing is shows how just a little crazy you're sounding on paper.
Unacceptable, Reggie. Either address the issue of race academically like the tone of the thread demands or please don't participate in at all. Your flippancy is not desirable, and if you choose to be flippant, you cannot expect a serious response. You didn't bring up a "quick point," you went for a cheap laugh.

Also, I'm not "[your] dude."
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Post by seasons » Tue Jun 11, 2013 9:05 pm

aesling wrote:Why is it a ridiculous comparison?
Because the roots of racism and sexism have totally different origins. And not all forms of discrimination or privilege operate in the exact same way. Far from it.

Furthermore, misogyny and racism are motivated by totally different kinds of fear and prejudice. These manifest themselves in totally different ways in different settings and scenarios.

Kionin's OP was specifically about the prevalence of misogyny within the social spaces of this hobby (primarily the Internet). You don't get to change the subject of her essay and then complain that it doesn't make sense. Intellectually honest discussions don't work like that.
NME wrote:tl;dr

applying this theory to everything under the sun exposes it to be complete balderdash

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JaddziaDax wrote:Thing is, to me as well, the theory does seem to come off really ridiculous when you apply it to everything and all situations.
What I don't understand is why people think that Kionon's original post is supposed to apply to "everything and all situations"/"everything under the sun." What does that mean? We're talking about a specific problem in society and how it applies specifically to this community. You can deny its existence but you cannot "disprove" it by holding it to requirements that do not make any sense.

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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Post by macchinainterna » Tue Jun 11, 2013 10:49 pm

macchinainterna wrote:being an inconsiderate asshole as is expected of him
I will be serious for a moment. This thread is going absolutely nowhere fast. Anyone who posts a constructive arguement for Kio's thread gets immediately attacked by her. She refuses to hear anyone else's opinion on the matter and insists on being right.

This thread should be locked simply to allow everyone involved here, Kio included, to save face and agree to disagree.

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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Post by JaddziaDax » Wed Jun 12, 2013 12:10 am

I decided to look into Feminism more due to this thread, and a lot of what I found I really didn't like. It does come off as "applying it to everything under the sun" when you see people making statements like if something doesn't go your way, blame the patriarchy. It usually ends up looking like misandry rather than females wanting equal rights and equal opportunity.

So my response about "applying it to everything" really came from that experience..

~~~~
As for this specific forum: I've seen some behavior that I think is creepy/rude towards females on this forum, but that is mostly in the Self Photos thread... anywhere else, I haven't seen it much, if at all. But I'd like to point out once again, I think it's more so due to lack of social skills. (And lacking social skills isn't necessarily a bad thing, it just means you need to learn, and people need to be patient to teach.)

As for the people who come in here and act as though the org is their personal playground, or like to act like jerks, I usually just brush them off as jerks. :P However they are jerks to everyone therefore I don't see females getting singled out by them. Granted many use misogynistic language as a tool to be a jerk, but they are essentially trolls anyway so I never thought that they were worth my time.

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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Post by Kionon » Wed Jun 12, 2013 2:00 am

I think it's really important to realise that there is a difference between how feminism is portrayed by others and how those who self identify as feminists believe. Further, feminism is not monolithic and I have been very clear in claiming that I am an intersectional feminist. I'm pretty mainstream. I am not an extremist. I don't identify as a radical feminist and I largely disagree with those who wave the radfem label proudly.

As for the claim that the thread is going nowhere, I agree. However it is not because I have attacked anyone for offering constructive arguments, but rather because there have been repeated attempts to derail the thread, to mock my positions, to mischaracterise my beliefs, and to personally attack me.

I made it clear in the original essay and AGAIN in follow up posts that this wasn't a thread asking for people to prove me wrong. This wasn't an essay which ever gave any hint that I might change my mind or my opinions. This was me getting some serious issues off my chest. If you are attempting to convince me that misogyny in AMV communities doesn't exist, you've largely missed the point entirely. If you can't engage in this topic without trying to destroy my framework, derail the thread, and belittle me in the process, please start your own topic.
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Post by Kionon » Wed Jun 12, 2013 5:26 am

macchinainterna wrote:Anyone who posts a constructive arguement for Kio's thread gets immediately attacked by her. She refuses to hear anyone else's opinion on the matter and insists on being right.
Please point out where I attacked anyone.

There's a difference between hearing and agreeing. I've heard everyone else's opinions, but I'm under no obligation to agree with them. If I did not believe I was already right, I wouldn't have written the essay at all. I only wrote the essay to respond to that which I have already actually experienced and observed.

My expectation was for people to offer examples, and I have already explained at length why some people have chosen not to do that and my disappointment that they have not. The essay established ground rules. Ground rules which have been ignored. I'd rather people who are going to ignore these ground rules simply choose not to participate.

Unfortunately, they have chosen to participate, anyhow, and that is exactly the reason the essay was written in the first place and why the very people with the examples I hoped would be posted have PMed me to tell me there is no way they're going to get involved.

The hostility directed at this thread is exactly the hostility which provoked the essay in the first place. It's worth noting that over 90% of the inappropriate comments (accusatory, derailing, marginalising, etc) in the thread were made by male-identified members. I know. I counted. When you look at the posts that simply disagree with me, but are not inappropriate, the ratio is much more balanced. I'd find this absolutely fascinating, except that I already know from my previous writings and involvement with feminist perspectives in traditionally male dominated spaces that this is pretty par the course. Nothing too surprising here. Unfortunate, but not surprising.

Of course, not all of those inappropriate comments are seen as inappropriate by their authors, which of course itself just further lends credence to my arguments.
This thread should be locked simply to allow everyone involved here, Kio included, to save face and agree to disagree.
I stand by everything I have said so far. I do not need to "save face." The essay itself already established my positions, and I've also repeatedly reestablished them and reiterated my commitment to those positions.

A feminist writing a feminist critique continues to espouse feminist positions!

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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Post by Fall_Child42 » Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:16 am

Kionon wrote:I made it clear in the original essay and AGAIN in follow up posts that this wasn't a thread asking for people to prove me wrong. This wasn't an essay which ever gave any hint that I might change my mind or my opinions. This was me getting some serious issues off my chest. If you are attempting to convince me that misogyny in AMV communities doesn't exist, you've largely missed the point entirely. If you can't engage in this topic without trying to destroy my framework, derail the thread, and belittle me in the process, please start your own topic.

You know how this reads right?

I'm not saying that this is what your saying but I want you to take a step back and read this paragraph from the perspective of someone who is not you. I want to show you why people might be getting the wrong idea and not understanding what you want.

This is a forum. A forum is for discussion. A discussion usually requires a conversation back and forth between people that have differing opinions. You clearly state that this thread was not made for discussion, so why does this thread exist? This was an inappropriate place to post your essay. A better place would have been the journals, or even an offsite blog. Simply due to the fact that you seem to be getting upset that people are trying to discuss things with you in an area made for discussion. But again you have clearly stated that this is not for people to try and change your mind and that you will not change your mind and that this is not for discussion.

Another thing that might be harmful to your point, you keep bringing up the "tone of the essay" or "My essay made it clear that" but there is some problems with that.

I'm sure you yourself would admit that your essay is a tad on the long site. If I may be blunt your essay is also not very clear. It lacks structure, logic, focus, and is very hard for people to read. If there were rules you wanted people to follow, they need to be much more concise and written in a way people can understand. I do not consider myself an uneducated individual, and I hope you also do not think of me as stupid, but even after reading your essay I didn't understand what tone you were going for or exactly how you wanted people to behave so I don't find it surprising that other people didn't understand either. Though I do kind of find it surprising your reaction to people that "miss your point" is not one of re-explaining it in a different way, in less words or different language, but one of annoyance or anger.

you must understand that many people on this forum are younger, don't have English as a first language, or simply did not have the means to provide themselves with higher education as you did, and thus a giant wall of difficult language is hard for them to get around, and easy for them to misconstrue your purpose, tone, or message.


These last two lines
"If you are attempting to convince me that misogyny in AMV communities doesn't exist, you've largely missed the point entirely. If you can't engage in this topic without trying to destroy my framework, derail the thread, and belittle me in the process, please start your own topic."

I know what you are saying is, "I'm sorry it seems you did not understand my original intentions, but I did not wish people to have these sorts of discussions in my thread, I am for these types of discussions but I would request they be held elsewhere." (I believe this is what you are saying I'm not trying to put words in your mouth) but the way you wrote it is combative. It can easily be read as "you don't get it. you're too stupid to get what i'm saying. if you don't think like i do get out." and that may be where you, and the other people in this thread are feeling the hostility from.

All of your language has had this sort of tone to it. I can sense the passion you have for the topic, but it also comes of as increasingly hostile even though you may not mean it to. But when it can be read like that easily it puts people on the defensive, and they just naturally start to fight back. Your vagueness and tone almost made me feel like I was being branded as one of these horrible misogynists, which I sincerely hope you don't believe, as I feel I am quite the opposite.
Then I took a step back and realized that this was not the case, but your lingual use brought that initial reaction from me.

I think there has been mistakes made by all in here, from the choice of posting area, to the ways people interpreted your words. I don't think any one person or group is to blame, but I also think that if this was an essay not meant for discussion and the discussion that is coming from it is not wanted then this thread really needn't be here in this way.

I would actually like to see a discussion feminism in general but the OP would have to be written to foster clear proper discussion with rules written out in a concise understandable manner.

look at me
i wrote all of these words,
I didn't make a single joke.

you brought out the worst in me Kionon.
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