Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Critique

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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Postby JaddziaDax » Sun Jun 09, 2013 7:49 pm

lol Never said that there's anything wrong with being awkward or shy. Just social skills take time to develop. ;)
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Postby Athena » Sun Jun 09, 2013 8:06 pm

JaddziaDax wrote:Thing is, to me as well, the theory does seem to come off really ridiculous when you apply it to everything and all situations. Sometimes it's not patriarchy to blame. Sometimes it's just lack of social skills.


Well, it's not always intentional, no. In fact, I'd say it's nearly never intentional. That what makes it so subtle and insidious. Although I definitely feel it's sort of... "in the air." It's institutionalised so it's in society's very structure. Being aware of it is a way of lessening its impact.

This is why I am not accusing people of being misogynists (with a few really obvious examples, but as aesling said in her very first post, assholes gonna be assholes, so this isn't about them). If anyone thinks I'm doing this, let me assure them, I most definitely am not doing this. I think (most) people are trying to be good, decent human beings. Doesn't mean they always succeed. I certainly don't. I fail all the time. As I've said before, I'm really not good with ableism. I've said some pretty terrible things. Am I an ableist? No, no I am not. Do I say ableist things? You bet I do. Should I? No, absolutely not.

It's not always the patriarchy to blame, but sometimes it actually is.

Honestly, folks, if I haven't convinced you by now, there's really no point to further discussion. I was absolutely ready to allow the thread to die before it was moved to General Discussion. I wasn't planning to reply again if it didn't get new replies, but it did.

I really am happy that this isn't an issue for many of you. I really am. I'm glad that you have found this community and the hobby to be safe and supportive. Not everyone has, and not everyone else is brave enough to speak up (in their own words, mind you). That's all I'm saying. I'm getting a lot of flak for this. I knew that was going to happen to a degree when I wrote it. I thought it was important enough to write and I still do. This was never supposed to be about me, and maybe people are confusing the message with the messenger.

That said, I actually do feel that I've been made really uncomfortable in the community and treated pretty badly, even if the original essay was not about me. This is one of the least safest spaces for me for a variety of reasons. Which is a shame because of how long I've been a part of it. It's really too bad that there seems to be an institutionalised lack of awareness that I feel this way and several others feel this way, and as clearly evidenced by the reaction to this thread (both inside of it and outside of it) our voices simply don't count.

Because that's what I'm hearing. I don't count and I'm not welcome. And neither are those editors who do agree with me, many of whom only lurk now because of this.

This is my last post on the subject, but my PM box is always open. I encourage you to continue the discussion there.
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Postby JaddziaDax » Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:49 am

Truthfully I've always known the org to be a hostile place but I never attributed it to sexism. More so "cliquey". I believe I've heard the terms "inner circle" tossed around several times. But I've never known the bias based on gender, but rather quality of work.
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Postby ReggieSmalls » Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:22 pm

Kionon you may need to fall back man, you have a extreme view on this. Based on your logic I can also say that the org is racist. This forums white people is dominating the black and brown people. How's a nigga to overcome adversity with all these white people holding me back with their whiteness.

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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Postby seasons » Tue Jun 11, 2013 1:12 am

ReggieSmalls wrote:Kionon you may need to fall back man, you have a extreme view on this. Based on your logic I can also say that the org is racist.


What, specifically, do you object to in the original post?

Please explain your criticisms more thoroughly, including how matters of gender and race are interchangeable.
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Postby mirkosp » Tue Jun 11, 2013 1:43 am

I'm going to invite again to keep serious, civil, and respectful tones in this topic. I'm keeping Reggie's post since it could potentially lead to a honest discussion, although he likely mostly meant it as a joke.
Of course NME's post was nothing short of asking for a flame, so that's gone.
Think twice about what you're posting here, mods do exist and can take action if need be.
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Postby Athena » Tue Jun 11, 2013 2:14 am

My patience is exhausted.

ReggieSmalls wrote:Kionon you may need to fall back man, you have a extreme view on this.


No, and thanks for the misgendering!

Based on your logic I can also say that the org is racist.


No.

This forums white people is dominating the black and brown people. How's a nigga to overcome adversity with all these white people holding me back with their whiteness.


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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Postby Fall_Child42 » Tue Jun 11, 2013 8:00 am

Kionon wrote:NO.


woah, hold on a minute.

Why so simply negative to a different perspective?

How can you be so adamant about institutionalized misogynism, but not allow for the exact same thing when it comes to race relations?

Are you denying that racial minorities have been historically disenfranchised regardless of gender?
Are you then further denying that there has been, or can be, racial hostility inside the AMV community?

What Reggie is saying is that all of the things you have said about sexism on a-m-v.org could also be applied to racism.
I have gone over the massively long posts you have made and I really don't see how this is not true.

What he is also saying is that while examples of people being racist can be dug up, it's probably not as prevalent as this argument seems to say it is.

I'm not sure why you couldn't address that instead of flippantly dismissing the post with single word and meme responses.
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Postby Athena » Tue Jun 11, 2013 8:21 am

I already said in previous posts that discussing issues, including racism, in the AMV communities was perfectly acceptable, and in fact, was encouraged, although since I am not a person of color, I didn't feel like writing that essay myself. This proves Reggie didn't read at all. It proves Reggie just wanted to turn me into a straw feminist to appear cool.

And I am out of patience, Todd. Completely out. It has been exhausted. If people don't stop distorting my purpose or my words, using fallacious (and malicious) arguments against me, and implying (or explicitly stating) that I'm lying (and the mods don't come in and shut this whole thing down with real consequences), I'm going to finally lose my restraint, and nothing good is going to come of that.
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Postby BasharOfTheAges » Tue Jun 11, 2013 9:34 am

I don't think people are saying that you're lying. I think they saying you're a tad delusional.
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Postby seasons » Tue Jun 11, 2013 11:36 am

Fall_Child42 wrote:
Kionon wrote:NO.


woah, hold on a minute.

Why so simply negative to a different perspective?


Because he was being sarcastic. Or going out of his way to make a ridiculous comparison. Take your pick.
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Postby aesling » Tue Jun 11, 2013 3:02 pm

Why is it a ridiculous comparison?
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Postby ReggieSmalls » Tue Jun 11, 2013 3:22 pm

seasons wrote:
Fall_Child42 wrote:
Kionon wrote:NO.


woah, hold on a minute.

Why so simply negative to a different perspective?


Because he was being sarcastic. Or going out of his way to make a ridiculous comparison. Take your pick.


Take it how you want to seasons I'm just bring up a quick point and just being a little bit funny about it. All I'm saying Kionon my dude is that you may be taking this whole thing a bit too far then you should be. We all know this type of thing goes on in most places but I don't think it applies here. Me bring up the race thing is shows how just a little crazy you're sounding on paper.
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Postby Athena » Tue Jun 11, 2013 4:22 pm

ReggieSmalls wrote:Take it how you want to seasons I'm just bring up a quick point and just being a little bit funny about it. All I'm saying Kionon my dude is that you may be taking this whole thing a bit too far then you should be. We all know this type of thing goes on in most places but I don't think it applies here. Me bring up the race thing is shows how just a little crazy you're sounding on paper.


Unacceptable, Reggie. Either address the issue of race academically like the tone of the thread demands or please don't participate in at all. Your flippancy is not desirable, and if you choose to be flippant, you cannot expect a serious response. You didn't bring up a "quick point," you went for a cheap laugh.

Also, I'm not "[your] dude."
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Postby seasons » Tue Jun 11, 2013 9:05 pm

aesling wrote:Why is it a ridiculous comparison?


Because the roots of racism and sexism have totally different origins. And not all forms of discrimination or privilege operate in the exact same way. Far from it.

Furthermore, misogyny and racism are motivated by totally different kinds of fear and prejudice. These manifest themselves in totally different ways in different settings and scenarios.

Kionin's OP was specifically about the prevalence of misogyny within the social spaces of this hobby (primarily the Internet). You don't get to change the subject of her essay and then complain that it doesn't make sense. Intellectually honest discussions don't work like that.

NME wrote:tl;dr

applying this theory to everything under the sun exposes it to be complete balderdash

good work


JaddziaDax wrote:Thing is, to me as well, the theory does seem to come off really ridiculous when you apply it to everything and all situations.


What I don't understand is why people think that Kionon's original post is supposed to apply to "everything and all situations"/"everything under the sun." What does that mean? We're talking about a specific problem in society and how it applies specifically to this community. You can deny its existence but you cannot "disprove" it by holding it to requirements that do not make any sense.
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