Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Critique

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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Postby Athena » Mon Jun 03, 2013 7:27 pm

Ultimatetransfan wrote:If gender has nothing to do with the quality of the product, why draw attention to it at all?


That's my point. The problem is, as I have articulated already numerous times: gender is constantly drawn attention to in inappropriate ways.

Don't shoot me; I am just the messenger.
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Postby Fall_Child42 » Mon Jun 03, 2013 7:43 pm

I promised I'd stop posting, but I know what people are asking for.

They are asking for concrete specific examples, data that shows what you are talking about, hard non-anecdotal evidence.
So far you have been mentioning a large male domination and subjugation of female AMVers on the org, yet have yet to provide any sort of factual evidence.

This is not meant to be a confrontational post, but I believe is just what people want to see.
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Postby Athena » Mon Jun 03, 2013 8:05 pm

Fall_Child42 wrote:They are asking for concrete specific examples, data that shows what you are talking about, hard non-anecdotal evidence. So far you have been mentioning a large male domination and subjugation of female AMVers on the org, yet have yet to provide any sort of factual evidence.


I think the nuance of what I am suggesting is a bit different than your choice of words. I said this is a male dominated space. That has a very particular academic definition, one I pointed out in the original essay. Subjugation is really a much too strong a word to use in this case, and I think the nuance and connotation it has is far from the subtly pervasive nature to which I am referring. Words matter. You need to be very careful not suggest I am saying things I am most definitely not saying.

This is not meant to be a confrontational post, but I believe is just what people want to see.


I have provided some factual evidence, in PM, to the moderators/admins. I have other factual evidence which I have been told not to share/asked to keep private/etc. Why do you think I keep harping on the request for people to chip in? I am hoping some of these folks feel safe enough to discuss their issues publicly; it is clear to me that they do not.

What can I do?
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Postby Otohiko » Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:49 am

Ultimatetransfan wrote:If gender has nothing to do with the quality of the product, why draw attention to it at all?

And herein lies the problem: I think many would agree with me that AMVs and AMVing are not a product at all, but a community that is full of rather involved processes, both technical and social. I think you can't look at it as a product separate from the circumstances in which it's made. Well, you can, but I think that's a very problematic view. If we're gonna have a community, I think it's very important to talk about social issues in it, even if those have nothing to do with the videos themselves.
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Postby Beowulf » Tue Jun 04, 2013 9:28 am

Maybe there's far more men than women in the AMV community because men are more inclined to edit anime music videos than women are. (yup)

Maybe men have generally more technological inclination than women? (they do)

Maybe it's a boys club because anime is drawn by men with juvenile, fantastical views of women? (it is)

Maybe every difference between the two sexes isn't indicative of male domination or chauvinism? (it's not)

Masculine and Feminine are two very different essences that have very different aptitudes. The solution is to value both things equally, not try to make both of them exactly like each other. There's a reason men predominately have invented more gadgets, played more instruments, written more songs, and killed more men, than women ever have or will.
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Postby Ultimatetransfan » Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:56 pm

Otohiko wrote:
Ultimatetransfan wrote:If gender has nothing to do with the quality of the product, why draw attention to it at all?

And herein lies the problem: I think many would agree with me that AMVs and AMVing are not a product at all, but a community that is full of rather involved processes, both technical and social. I think you can't look at it as a product separate from the circumstances in which it's made. Well, you can, but I think that's a very problematic view. If we're gonna have a community, I think it's very important to talk about social issues in it, even if those have nothing to do with the videos themselves.


I make my videos without input from others, except that of my friends.
I learned long ago not to ask advice on this site, as it never comes, or it comes with some kind of price.

As such, an issue of gender never enters into my work.
I make my video, post it where it can be seen, and sometimes, people watch it.
Gender has no factor, as I do not include it in my announcements, or mention it in the work itself, nor should I have to.
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Postby seasons » Tue Jun 04, 2013 5:20 pm

Beowulf wrote:Maybe there's far more men than women in the AMV community because men are more inclined to edit anime music videos than women are. (yup)


This has been covered already.

Kionon wrote:Please reread the essay. Majority is not the issue here.




Beowulf wrote:Maybe men have generally more technological inclination than women? (they do)


That's a really ignorant statement. And chauvanistic. Yes, I can use that word and it does apply to what you're saying, assuming that it represents your actual beliefs.



Beowulf wrote:Maybe every difference between the two sexes isn't indicative of male domination or chauvinism? (it's not)


Who are you talking to? Absolutely no one is saying this and more than halfway through your post, you still haven't addressed any of the points in the OP. Did you actually read any of the thread? Are you interested in contributing to the disccusion or did you just want to make a bunch of provocative statements?



Beowulf wrote:Masculine and Feminine are two very different essences that have very different aptitudes. The solution is to value both things equally, not try to make both of them exactly like each other. Theres a reason men predominately have invented more gadgets, played more instruments, written more songs, and killed more men, than women every have or will.


Okay, I'll bite, if only to give you a little more rope. Tell us what the reason is.

I don't know this member, has he been like this for more than a decade here or is this just his way of trying to derail a good thread? If it's the latter, I'm sorry for enabling him.
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Postby AMVGuide » Tue Jun 04, 2013 6:39 pm

derail a good thread
I don't think that's actually possible, lest communication devolve into fighting. There are always opposing views. It just a matter of finding the right words. In this case, I think his argument can be succinctly summed up in the word: Testosterone. That's one indisputable difference between men and women. A little T can make a whole world of difference.
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Postby Athena » Tue Jun 04, 2013 6:59 pm

Beo,

Your gender essentialism is troubling.

Beowulf wrote:Maybe there's far more men than women in the AMV community because men are more inclined to edit anime music videos than women are.


Are you saying that men naturally have more inclination towards editing? Because if so, that's essentialist thinking.

Maybe men have generally more technological inclination than women? (they do)


Maybe it's a boys club because anime is drawn by men with juvenile, fantastical views of women?


Uh. What? Shoujo? Josei? Class S? Yuri? If you think Shimura Takako drew Aoi Hana or Hourou Musuko for the male gaze, you've missed the point. Even the objectification of men in Yaoi is typically done by women for women. Doujinshi production is majority women.

You're simply factually wrong on this. Women have been involved with manga and anime for a long, long time. And the roots of shoujo/josei/yuri can be found in the Class S novels of the early 20th century and the Takarazuka Review, the all-woman acting troupe. The beginnings of titles aimed at girls can be traced to the Occupation Period in Japanese history, with proto-shoujo showing up in the early 1950s. By the 1970s, shoujo was fully formed, and under mangaka like Ikeda Riyoko, it dealt with complex issues of navigating social structures surrounding sexuality and gender identity. The 1970s! Claudine is particularly relevant to this discussion, as this Ikeda work focuses on a young trans man and a very complex set of relationships between his family, his friends, and the woman he loves. It ends, like most of Ikeda's works, in tragedy. But you can even see this complexity in Rose of Versailles, and Ace wo Nerae. Oniisama E has no male characters at all, aside from the title character who only shows up once or twice. Oniisama E instead is entirely concerned with an all-girl environment.

Yuri, especially, was not created for men. It was created for women. Shows like Maria-sama ga Miteru are intentional homages to the Class S novels and are considered "High Yuri." There is no sex, none even implied, and even the romantic aspects are rather chaste, with public displays of affection being fairly minor, and usually at the chagrin of other characters, who may consider it too "unseemly" or "bold." These stories often end in tragedy, especially the 1970s titles, which is strong commentary on the anti-woman and anti-LGBT environment in modern Japan. Characters usually commit suicide (physical death) or get married to a suitor because there is no other social option (figurative death).

Hentai containing lesbians may play on some yuri tropes, but its development is entirely unrelated to yuri, which is not so much interested in lesbian sex as much as it is interested in homosocial behavioral patterns. If lesbian sex occurs, it is only as a natural consequence of fairly long and complex character development typically seen in yuri. There is a reason why Akage no An (Anne of Green Gables) is so popular in Japan: it presents a young girl who is uninterested in obeying gender norms, with strong homosocial relationships (Diana, mostly, but there are others, such as the imaginary Katie Maurice) with a very classic "yuri" tragedy ending when Diana gets married (against Anne's wishes) and Anne marries Gilbert in order to have what Virginia Woolf called "a room of her own" in which to write novels, using Gilbert's income as a doctor to reach for her dreams in an otherwise hostile atmosphere.

Maybe every difference between the two sexes isn't indicative of male domination or chauvinism? (it's not)


Oh, I'd love to hear what you think these differences are.

Masculine and Feminine are two very different essences that have very different aptitudes. The solution is to value both things equally, not try to make both of them exactly like each other. Theres a reason men predominately have invented more gadgets, played more instruments, written more songs, and killed more men, than women every have or will.


Who is trying to eliminate gender here in this thread? There are no radfems in this thread. I'm an intersectional feminist. I don't want to eliminate gender; I want to transform it to a more equitable arrangement. That doesn't mean I want to destroy the differences. That said, your comment about aptitudes is very questionable.

You're right, there is a reason why men, as a class, have invented more gadgets (although prior to revisions in the patent law in the late 1800s, women inventors couldn't even patent their inventions in the United States, they couldn't own much property at all until the Married Women's Property Acts, which themselves were really just tax havens for their husbands), played more instruments (really? are you counting antiquity?), killed more men (okay, I grant you this one). That reason is patriarchy.

Ultimatetransfan wrote:Gender has no factor, as I do not include it in my announcements, or mention it in the work itself, nor should I have to.


I think gender does inform what I choose to portray in my videos. I don't think it's so much intentional is in my interests in the sources in the first place from from a constant grapple with the notion of gender. Especially my works pertaining to Utena (several, which is itself commentary on shoujo and yuri tropes) and Aoi Hana, which is an attempt to explore actual, real life experiences of adolescent lesbians in Japanese society. Something of which I am increasingly aware, given where I live, what I do for a living, and my own preoccupation with gender identity, gender expression, gender roles, and sexuality. Yet, I do believe my ability to articulate this connection is a rather recent development. In the past, I was exploring many of these issues subconsciously.

You needn't mention gender at all, no. But that doesn't free you of gendered assumptions placed on you by your audience.

AMVGuide wrote:In this case, I think his argument can be succinctly summed up in the word: Testosterone. That's one indisputable difference between men and women. A little T can make a whole world of difference.


Can't argue with that. Although I'm fairly certain I've got the best handle on how hormone balances work in this thread, especially as it applies to the negative aspects of T on someone who shouldn't have it. But T/E doesn't determine gender. It just makes you feel shitty if your balances are wrong for your gender.
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Postby seasons » Tue Jun 04, 2013 7:02 pm

AMVGuide wrote:[In this case, I think his argument can be succinctly summed up in the word: Testosterone. That's one indisputable difference between men and women. A little T can make a whole world of difference.

Well, sex chromosomes, to be more precise. But I'm not sure what his "argument" is aside from jumping in and tossing out a bunch of gender stereotypes, which doesn't help any of us.
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Postby Athena » Tue Jun 04, 2013 7:10 pm

1 in 300 "men" are not XY. 1 in 60 have hormonal balances outside of the "norm," called androgen receptivity problems. Someone who develops some, most, or all male primary and secondary characteristics may be XXY, XXXY, or even XX. Other genetic formations may affect other types of development.

Your dimorphic "truth" is a lie.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Postby Athena » Tue Jun 04, 2013 7:12 pm

Kionon wrote:...most, or all male primary and secondary characteristics may be XXY, XXXY, or even XX.


XXXY should actually be XXXXY here, four not three (49,XXXXY, iirc, can cite if necessary).
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Postby Ultimatetransfan » Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:07 pm

Which one of you just left a comment on my video to stir up crap?
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Postby Athena » Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:55 pm

Ultimatetransfan wrote:Which one of you just left a comment on my video to stir up crap?


I don't think anyone here involved in this thread would do that. If you think someone left a hostile remark, especially one which is misogynistic, etc, drop it to the mods. Or heck, drop it here, if you honestly believe it is related to this thread.

If it is, that is unacceptable.
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Postby Ultimatetransfan » Tue Jun 04, 2013 9:07 pm

Kionon wrote:
Ultimatetransfan wrote:Which one of you just left a comment on my video to stir up crap?


I don't think anyone here involved in this thread would do that. If you think someone left a hostile remark, especially one which is misogynistic, etc, drop it to the mods. Or heck, drop it here, if you honestly believe it is related to this thread.

If it is, that is unacceptable.


Someone is, and someone did.

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This is not misogynistic, it is just mean-spirited. Trying to make me look a fool based on one video, that still has nothing to do with the gender of the creator.
I am not changing my stance. The content of my videos does not have to do with my gender. These 2 pieces of media fit together, so I put them together. I could easily be one gender or the other, and it wouldn't be known unless someone sought out the information.
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