Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Critique

[Sephiroth]

The problem is, you're negating concepts no one has brought up. No one here seems to think that a majority of male editors is the issue. No one brought up contest wins. No one has brought up overt hatred of women, believed or expressed. Feminist theory asserts that misogyny is more than this overt hatred or overt inclusion, it is system of cultural behaviors and attitudes which serve to marginalise women's voices. This marginalisation can, and does, exist in degrees. Often times the most insidious attitudes are the most subtle because we subconsciously breathe them in and out without recognising they are even there.

Your language communicates otherwise
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/misogyny
Only definition given :a hatred of women.

Whatever definitions Feminism may have given you, you are using words which have very pre-established meanings. Now words do change, the vinacular however from words like Mysogyny has a very direct and precise meaning. Your use of it is not communicating what your claiming it does.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misogyny
Misogyny (pron.: /mɪˈsɒdʒɪni/) is the hatred or dislike of women or girls.

And as i stated i'm not just responding to you. The example of there are less female editors then male is an example of a piece of data you could make an argument about preferential treatment as an effect of it. It doesn't apply to your argument, guess what i'm not responding to you on that example. At this point i'm no longer upset with you but rather the idiots who decided that Oh yeah this word here should mean something completely different when we use it. Misogyny means to most people ive met, myself included is 'a hatred or dislike of women'. Not everyone here's a feminist scholar. Much like if i'm a scientist i may not write down the specific terminology i use if i'm sure other people wouldn't understand it. This is why ive gone through great pains to explain things like fallacies and give examples of them. Basicly you think your communicating one thing and you are communicating another to me.

I'll state very plainly i believe in equal rights for everyone. If you can do something, things like race, sex, skin color, or sexual preferences should have no bearing on your ability to pursue that.

[AMVGuide]

It seems to me --as is usually the case-- that everyone is hung up on Linguistic Logic.
Despite Misogyny not being the word I would use here, I think this is more or less the point Kionon is trying to make:

...those that are unaware of their privileges...

I challenge everyone to disregard everything that's been said for 15 minutes and just imagine what their life would be like as a different gender.

[seasons]

Replying to a few recent comments, none of which were directed towards me. I don't want to derail the thread outside of its original intent so carry on if you see fit.

Spoiler :

Want out of your comfort zone? I'm fine with that, I demand proof of every single thing any of you claim. Especially if your demanding others to change based on those claims.

What, specifically, do you want "proof" of? And what kind of "proof" would you like to see?

More importantly, what are the "claims" that you think are being made? Or which specifically are you concerned with?

The claim of privilege is stating that there exists a preferential bias for the male gender.

For the purposes of a discussion like this, I think that "privilege" is understood to be a set of advantages that one group has over another. As a white male in the USA, I enjoy lots of it! Granted, I try to be conscious of its role in how it affects me in one situation or another, and I try not to (pre)judge others through the lens that it's imposed on my worldview, but it certainly does help me out (and I need all the help I can get, trust me). I would say that "privilege" is not the same as discrimination, or at least not in the traditional sense that most people are most familiar with. Rather, it's a more subtle and widespread phenomenon. You may encounter it daily and not even notice it. Yep, that can happen. But it still shapes our society and our collective behaviors (you, me, men and women). Trust me, it exists. But here's the good news: its existence does not mean that all males are bad people! That conclusion would be a huge mischaracterization of feminist theory as well as the ideas presented in this thread. Plus I like to think that we're all here to be friends and to peacefully work out our differences. The OP presents no ill will towards anyone in this thread and if you think any of it does, it might be helpful to point out exactly where because I think we need to come to an understanding about that before we accomplish anything worthwhile here.

When it comes to the idea of "privilege," I'd say that it's not about dismissing someone's work simply because of their gender because of a bias that's been socialized into someone's set of values. Sure, that happens (and is a despicable habit of some people, I'm sure we can agree on that). But it sets up our expectations for others, leads us to make assumptions about what they're capable of, what experiences they might have had, or whether they're a "good fit" for the team or the job or whatever group is in question. This happens subconsciously, becomes part of how we see the world, how we view others, and how we accept others' behaviors. And when we assert privilege (consciously or unconsciously), we remind others of the power structure that is in place in both our subculture as well as society as a whole, which serves to put people "in their place" and reinforce the social hierarchy that exists in our world. Are you interested in specific examples of this?

If you can do something, things like race, sex, skin color, or sexual preferences should have no bearing on your ability to pursue that.

No one here is stating that women's rights to create AMVs are being infringed upon. Or that they are being excluded from contests or judged unfairly in them. This isn't really about AMVs in themselves at all, but (if I understand the OP correctly) the culture that has grown up around them. This happens on the board here, happens across anime fandom (both online and at conventions), is prevalent across all of "geek culture" (from comic fandom to video games to all things tech-related, and more...) and is the social norm in practically every sphere of the Internet. You are free to deny that if you wish but it would help us all if you had some reasons for doing so. And if you want "evidence," I can get you some but you've got to agree to stick around, read and consider it, and not simply write it off as "a few bad apples" or anything like that.

From the exact same Wikipedia entry that you just quoted (as long as we're going to use that site as an authority on the matter):

In feminist theory, misogyny is a negative attitude towards women as a group, and so need not fully determine a misogynist's attitude towards each individual woman. The fact that someone holds misogynist views may not prevent him or her from having positive relationships with some women. Conversely, simply having negative relationships with some women does not necessarily mean someone holds misogynistic views. The term, like most negative descriptions of attitudes, is applied to a wide variety of behaviors and attitudes.

I find that perfectly reasonable and very difficult to characterize as unfair. Would you agree?

[trythil]

http://misogynope.ninjawedding.org

Not a perfect solution by any standard, but it does a lot more than arguing about the meaning of words.

[Sephiroth]

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

Want out of your comfort zone? I'm fine with that, I demand proof of every single thing any of you claim. Especially if your demanding others to change based on those claims.

What, specifically, do you want "proof" of? And what kind of "proof" would you like to see?

More importantly, what are the "claims" that you think are being made? Or which specifically are you concerned with?

Lets see, people making claims that anyone is Privileged, even with your example below i can easily say that women have a set of invisible privileges they aren't aware of or at least not listing. So even in the event of 'Privilege' that need to be looked at in comparison to 'privilege' that is enjoyed by females. The way 'Privilaged' was used was very much orintated towards the males. Just because you feel privileged doesn't mean you are, even if you are Privilaged that doesn't mean you are privileged in a particular area. That AMVs are dominated by men, and i will want to know how that conclusion was reached.

The claim of privilege is stating that there exists a preferential bias for the male gender.

For the purposes of a discussion like this, I think that "privilege" is understood to be a set of advantages that one group has over another. As a white male in the USA, I enjoy lots of it! Granted, I try to be conscious of its role in how it affects me in one situation or another, and I try not to (pre)judge others through the lens that it's imposed on my worldview, but it certainly does help me out (and I need all the help I can get, trust me). I would say that "privilege" is not the same as discrimination, or at least not in the traditional sense that most people are most familiar with. Rather, it's a more subtle and widespread phenomenon. You may encounter it daily and not even notice it. Yep, that can happen. But it still shapes our society and our collective behaviors (you, me, men and women). Trust me, it exists. But here's the good news: its existence does not mean that all males are bad people! That conclusion would be a huge mischaracterization of feminist theory as well as the ideas presented in this thread. Plus I like to think that we're all here to be friends and to peacefully work out our differences. The OP presents no ill will towards anyone in this thread and if you think any of it does, it might be helpful to point out exactly where because I think we need to come to an understanding about that before we accomplish anything worthwhile here.

When it comes to the idea of "privilege," I'd say that it's not about dismissing someone's work simply because of their gender because of a bias that's been socialized into someone's set of values. Sure, that happens (and is a despicable habit of some people, I'm sure we can agree on that). But it sets up our expectations for others, leads us to make assumptions about what they're capable of, what experiences they might have had, or whether they're a "good fit" for the team or the job or whatever group is in question. This happens subconsciously, becomes part of how we see the world, how we view others, and how we accept others' behaviors. And when we assert privilege (consciously or unconsciously), we remind others of the power structure that is in place in both our subculture as well as society as a whole, which serves to put people "in their place" and reinforce the social hierarchy that exists in our world. Are you interested in specific examples of this?

Ok but at that point arent they just gendered expectation and things associated with gender roles rather then privileges. Even within the confines of that what you just listed also can apply to the female gender will they have the same ones no. Just because someone has one set of Privilages doesn't mean other people don't have others. I have to go to work i'll continue this later

If you can do something, things like race, sex, skin color, or sexual preferences should have no bearing on your ability to pursue that.

No one here is stating that women's rights to create AMVs are being infringed upon. Or that they are being excluded from contests or judged unfairly in them. This isn't really about AMVs in themselves at all, but (if I understand the OP correctly) the culture that has grown up around them. This happens on the board here, happens across anime fandom (both online and at conventions), is prevalent across all of "geek culture" (from comic fandom to video games to all things tech-related, and more...) and is the social norm in practically every sphere of the Internet. You are free to deny that if you wish but it would help us all if you had some reasons for doing so. And if you want "evidence," I can get you some but you've got to agree to stick around, read and consider it, and not simply write it off as "a few bad apples" or anything like that.

That was in a new paragraph and i was stating very planely what my views on gender rights were.

From the exact same Wikipedia entry that you just quoted (as long as we're going to use that site as an authority on the matter):

In feminist theory, misogyny is a negative attitude towards women as a group, and so need not fully determine a misogynist's attitude towards each individual woman. The fact that someone holds misogynist views may not prevent him or her from having positive relationships with some women. Conversely, simply having negative relationships with some women does not necessarily mean someone holds misogynistic views. The term, like most negative descriptions of attitudes, is applied to a wide variety of behaviors and attitudes.

I find that perfectly reasonable and very difficult to characterize as unfair. Would you agree?

One, even in that its the 6th section of the article. I was pointing out this is how its primarily used which is also where i came from on it.

Also from wiki also looked at the cited source
"In 2012, primarily in response to events occurring in the Australian Parliament, the Macquarie Dictionary (which documents Australian English and New Zealand English) expanded the definition to include not only hatred of women but also "entrenched prejudices against women".
So yes it does mean that in the macquarie dictionary a good 9 odd months ago when it was changed(In october 2012). As before if your going with a variant especially one that has only recently been added into it in country's i don't live in. It might help to point out because as i stated i was taking Mysogyny as hatred of women because that's what it meant and still means in the US.

[Kitsuner]

http://weeklysift.com/2012/09/10/the-di ... rivileged/

I saw this article linked on twitter earlier today and thought it sounded relevant.

[Kionon]

http://weeklysift.com/2012/09/10/the-di ... rivileged/

I saw this article linked on twitter earlier today and thought it sounded relevant.

Extremely relevant. Thank you. This was a great contribution to the thread, in my opinion.

Sephiroth, I still haven't had time to construct a response to your recent posts in detail, and I want to, although I will say that seasons handled a lot of it already. I have only a few things to add.

[BasharOfTheAges]

Ok, serious post for serious this time.

Equality is a great thing. It's something I agree with wholeheartedly. Causes are great too. They give you meaning and purpose, even when they're making claims of -isms to rouse support.

The problem, however, is that a fair number of people get wrapped up in causes to the point where they polarize. You are either a crusader that must attack the problem or you are part of the problem - there is no middle ground. These people don't want equality, they want preferential treatment and special deference for years/decades/centuries of mistreatment by others. That is not okay, because that is not equality. Fairly or not, that's how a lot of modern feminist groups are perceived. I think it's important to understand that and address it.

[Kionon]

I think they keyword here is "perceived."

Groups that actually want preferential treatment are not feminists, event if they claim the label. They're really not any of the labels they claim (although I feel there is a difference between preferential treatment and affirmative action, there are groups who want the former and not just the latter. I oppose such groups). However, they are a minority, and the "popular image" of these groups (the idea of the feminazi, a word coined by Rush Limbaugh) is one that comes from the demonisation of these movements combined with holding up these preferential treatment seekers as the norm rather than the minority.

Take trans exclusionary radical feminists; at best they are the black sheep of the feminist family tree. At worst (and this is how I feel) they have betrayed the core principles of feminism by rejecting intersectionality and should have their feminism cards revoked. That said there are like... twenty of them. World wide. They're just really loud.

[Kionon]

I've had pretty full days for the last few days because of course loads (teaching six classes a day) combined with meetings with the Board of Education and medical stuff. Most of my posts have been from my iPhone and therefore I lacked the ability to quote extensively or write more than a single paragraph. It would have been far too tedious, and I did not have enough breaks to do so, anyway.

For this, I apologise. Today I will have maybe two hours or so in order to devote to the topic. I want to say, again, that I appreciate everyone who has so far responded, whether they agree with me or not. There's a fair bit to cover here, and given the amount of previous conversation, I have decided not to go line by line, quote by quote. I feel that seasons covered a lot of what of I would have, and I feel his answers represent my views and the views expressed in the essay quite well. I am grateful for his participation. Kit's link on the distress of privilege is also helpful for understanding some of the terminology I am using.

First, I would like to address the concept of male dominated spaces versus male majority spaces with a recent example. For those that do not know, I am an advisor for the JET Programme in the Tokyo area. I have spent most of the last five years teaching in Japan (and doing TA type stuff in graduate school for some months in the US). Sometimes I observe the JETs in my area. Sometimes I teach with them. Sometimes I teach alone. I'm painfully aware of this problem in educational environments, and how they are cross-cultural. So, my example comes from one of my classes yesterday.

I had a class where there were about 30 students. A rough count revealed more girls than boys (going strictly by gender expression, mind you. Review of Hourou Musuko/Wandering Son will show that Japan most definitely does have trans youth, and I don't wish to be seen as invalidating their existence). What proceeded to happen is that about 10 boys, the majority of the boys (perhaps there were two or three others who were not so active) who were very energetic. Always speaking out, always raising hands, always volunteering for everything first, and showing a lot of initiative. These are great traits in an English class, and I know that the boys were not attempting to be inconsiderate. They simply weren't thinking about the girls or being situationally aware. Regardless of intent, the environment was a hostile one for the girls.

At one point about halfway through the lesson, I simply had to put my foot down and cut the boys off. It didn't always work, and I spent a lot of energy and focus to create a space where the girls could participate and their voices were not marginalised. It was exhausting, and although I did not actually keep track, I feel like I devoted more time to the girls and yet was unable to get their participation up to boy levels because I often had to deals with the boys' somewhat sullen resentment. They simply did not understand that they were doing anything wrong. If the girls wanted to participate, they ought to fight for it, or so that seemed to be the shared idea. Since I had already been thinking about this due to this thread, I was hyper-sensitive to this gendered byplay.

This is what I mean about how numbers don't matter. It could have been five boys. It could have been one. I have seen men come into women majority spaces and dominate the entire space. Unintentionally, mind you. It's also generally understood that women's rate of speech is compared not to men's, but rather to women's silence. Even when women have exactly half of the speech, both men and women often feel that in fact they have spoken more, and in classrooms, teachers who scrupulously make sure that girls have exactly as much time as boys still walk away from such classes with the feeling that they devoted more time, energy, and focus to girls, even if the documentation shows that speech was equal. If anyone is interested, I can give some links.

I hope that clears up some of the misconceptions about the idea that dominated spaces require a dominating majority. It simply isn't about numbers. It's about patterns of behavior.

The second point I want to bring up is a peripheral but important goal for the essay and specifically this thread: to have a safe space, free of the fear of derailment or mockery, for those who have seen or experienced these patterns of behavior to talk about what they have seen or felt. I want to keep this generalised, and while I advocated calling out misogynistic comments or behavior at the exact time it happens, I am more reticent about requesting people openly call out others by name for past events, especially events in the fairly distant past. Of course, if an incident happened very recently, then perhaps it may be in the spirit of this essay's challenge to go ahead and name names. I leave this up to individuals to judge according to their own feelings and needs. I won't be doing it myself.

As this thread progresses, I am specifically asking for people to feel safe about expressing their thoughts and feelings on incidents where they felt marginalised due to gender, or seen others marginalised in a way which appeared to be about gender. If you want to address other issues as well, perhaps racism, or homophobia, or transphobia, ableism, etc, especially if it intersects with gender based marginalisation, please feel free to do so. This is encouraged. Intersectionality is the key.

I don't want anyone walking away from this thread thinking, "I can't say anything, if I do, nothing will change, and I'll bring negative attention to myself and make the situation worse." I want everyone to feel they can discuss these issues and be respectful of others' experiences.

Thank you, and I am looking forward to how the discourse continues. I feel it has been a positive and beneficial conversation so far, even with the objections raised. Such objections can only help us.