Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Critique

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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Post by Qyot27 » Mon May 27, 2013 10:03 pm

Just to be clear, I understand that the essay is written from a particular perspective and uses the terminology and tools of that approach. Being 'one-sided' is appropriate when discussing an issue from the viewpoint of a particular method or background, which is exactly the point here. I mean, I wouldn't expect an existentialist to argue using rationalist methods in a philosophical discourse. It's what makes those points of view and the answers they provide distinct.

Much of my fixation on the ways to apply what we learn from the essay and ensuing discussion without the danger of it being marginalized is as much about my own frustrations encountering those (in real life, or other places on the Internet) that are unaware of their privileges and are bitter and angry about others raising perfectly valid concerns, just because it means they don't get to discriminate anymore. It's toxic to be around, and it's one of those couple of hot-button issues that make me so agitated that I can't make a calm or reasoned response to it - my mind just fractures and any attempt to do so would probably come out as incoherent fragments of an argument. I only know that I can seek to conduct myself in better ways, and unfortunately that's the only solace I can get.
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Post by Sephiroth » Mon May 27, 2013 10:44 pm

The whole listing of privilege is nothing more then an attack. Instead of addressing actual points the claim is the person doesn't understand due to their privilege. IE your privileged so that's why you are disagreeing with this but if you weren't then you'd be for it. To put it another way i'm not black but i have seen enough things that have shown me actual racism, along with having friends who have actual received it to know that yes it does exist.

Its an ad homininem in particular the 4th one.
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'Your Privileged and this privilege you aren't aware of so that why your saying this' Even if it is true that the person is privileged, you are not addressing how and why those points are factually wrong. Your the one making a claim so the burden of Proof is on you. Unless there is valid data that proves that Amvs have an active negative bias against female editors A lack of female editors is not evidence for that. We might as well claim that AMVs are western propaganda after all they ware created by the west, with western privilege, and we don't have nearly as many non western AMV editors now do we.

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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Post by Kitsuner » Mon May 27, 2013 11:51 pm

I'd certainly like to see more Western AMVs, but Trigun isn't as popular as it used to be.
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Post by seasons » Tue May 28, 2013 1:55 am

Sephiroth wrote:Unless there is valid data that proves that Amvs have an active negative bias against female editors A lack of female editors is not evidence for that.
There's a strong chance that you may have misunderstood the premise of the whole thread or at least misread the OP.

No one was ever arguing that AMVs are "biased," whatever that would mean. Also, Kionon reiterates several times that this is not about # of male editors vs. # of female editors.

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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Post by Sephiroth » Tue May 28, 2013 4:29 am

seasons wrote:
Sephiroth wrote:Unless there is valid data that proves that Amvs have an active negative bias against female editors A lack of female editors is not evidence for that.
There's a strong chance that you may have misunderstood the premise of the whole thread or at least misread the OP.

No one was ever arguing that AMVs are "biased," whatever that would mean. Also, Kionon reiterates several times that this is not about # of male editors vs. # of female editors.

I'm not just responding to Kionon. The claim of privilege is stating that there exists a preferential bias for the male gender. A common fact to state in argument of that would be the number of female editors vs the number of males. The thread also lists as one of the major topics being Misogyny which is an active hatred of women. Hate is a negative Bias against someone.

And no matter what i may or may not have stated no one has submitted much in the way of proof rather opinion i include myself in that. Believe whatever you want but make claims and you better be able to prove them with evidence. There has as far as i know been no major study done on amv creators. None, so there is nothing to work from to make any claims. Statisticly there are bound to be some people who make amvs that do hate women, also those that hate men, are furrys, and who knows what else we might find if we looked at the lifestyles of our creators.

I will make the argument that likley there are more males winning more contests and having more of the popular videos simply because there are more men. Even within that i don't know whos won what contests. Even with that depending on how you looked at that data you could claim various things. If we analyzed the cons wins, found that more men won you could only really say that women don't win as many contests as men. Now if you took the relative population numbers and once again i'm going with a presumption that there are more male editors then female. You graphed out the percent of men assuming a higher number of them then women and possibly given a less number of women you determine if your a women that you have a higher chance to win then your being a man based on scaling their populations. If you at that point claim anything your being silly. Why because there can be any number of factors that made those cases happen. Likewise as i pointed out depending on how you sort your data from those examples you could make claim that AMVs either favor men or women.

I've seen plenty of women win awards at cons. Rider has won more awards then i have in a shorter amount of time. I could possibly cite her as an example that women do better at amvs then men. Even with all this theres a major problem how do we define success as an amv creator? With all that hypothetical I have defined it as number of awards won at cons. And you could do this even though other areas could very well be used that aren't so easily measured. Did the person enjoy making their video. Do we count personal satisfaction as the means of success?

Statements such as "To challenge misogyny where and when we see it." indirectly states that it would be found in this topic. The presumption it communicates is that there is Misogyny and that it will be challenged.

Want out of your comfort zone? I'm fine with that, I demand proof of every single thing any of you claim. Especially if your demanding others to change based on those claims. I'm not claiming anything, i really don't know for sure how the community works if its more christian or jewish or white supremicist or whatever. I'm not saying anyone should do anything different. Whatever we think about the AMV community is for the most part made up by us. Nobody knows anything.

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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Post by Kionon » Tue May 28, 2013 5:04 am

Sephiroth,

I am on my way to a doctor's appointment in central Tokyo. I am therefore on my iPhone and unable to address what you have written. I will make one explicit statement I will expand on in great detail later: you have misunderstood large sections of the essay. Nothing you have brought forward has anything to do with what I've stated. You have completely mischaracterised the essay so you can argue against what you think I mean.

You are way out in left field.
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Post by Sephiroth » Tue May 28, 2013 5:11 am

Kionon wrote:Sephiroth,

I am on my way to a doctor's appointment in central Tokyo. I am therefore on my iPhone and unable to address what you have written. I will make one explicit statement I will expand on in great detail later: you have misunderstood large sections of the essay. Nothing you have brought forward has anything to do with what I've stated. You have completely mischaracterised the essay so you can argue against what you think I mean.

You are way out in left field.
As i stated i'm not just responding to you.

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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Post by Sephiroth » Tue May 28, 2013 5:16 am

You know what i'm done. Claim whatever you want.
This has no relevence to the discussion above it

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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Post by Kionon » Tue May 28, 2013 5:22 am

The problem is, you're negating concepts no one has brought up. No one here seems to think that a majority of male editors is the issue. No one brought up contest wins. No one has brought up overt hatred of women, believed or expressed. Feminist theory asserts that misogyny is more than this overt hatred or overt inclusion, it is system of cultural behaviors and attitudes which serve to marginalise women's voices. This marginalisation can, and does, exist in degrees. Often times the most insidious attitudes are the most subtle because we subconsciously breathe them in and out without recognising they are even there.
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Post by Kionon » Tue May 28, 2013 5:25 am

Overt exclusion, I mean. Sorry for the mistake.
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