Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Critique

[JaddziaDax]

This thread makes me feel like an "old man".

[Kionon]

You are an Old Man, Old Man.

Kurzon references, Kurzon references everywhere!

...I'll get back on topic when I get home. Currently on my iPhone.

[aesling]

I also agree with that, and believe me, as a mod, I personally try. Sometimes people don't respond though. Calling people out in public can be really important. If something is not ok, not confronting it then and there is a bad thing.

Yes, because I'm totally saying we shouldn't confront bad behavior. C'mon, you know me better than that, calling people out on their stupid shit is something I do quite a bit.

I agree that we can all work on our sensitivity, awareness, and maturity, but I already said that we need to talk to people on a case-by-case basis instead of making a thread that's likely to make the people who don't already agree with you feel super defensive. That's not really going to change minds. Unfortunately I have to leave for work, so I can't really go into this more.

[Kionon]

We're starting to get pretty far afield of the original essay. And I'd like to bring us back around to the original topic, but there's a lot in here that I think is important to discuss in a wider context. I'm going to try to remain brief though, and then pull us back around to my intentions with the original essay, which I feel has been badly taken out of context.

Well, I meant that we generally assign gender based on sex-- if sex can be determined via the traditional test. And the majority of the time doctors can say "It's a boy" or "It's a girl."

They do say, but the question is should they. "Boy" and "girl" are social constructs. They cannot be medically pronounced from on high.

...save for those that wish to fight for their unique identity the rest of their lives.

Wishing has nothing to do with it. It's fight or live in perpetual discomfort. For some it is fight or die.

It just seems more reasonable to adopt oneself into one of those 'boxes' as you put it; especially when the label is only as meaningful as the social construction that created it

It seems reasonable to you, sure, but for some it is not reasonable at all. This is a key component of the issue being discussed earlier: what is not a problem for you may still be a problem for others.

I want people to refer to me as "he," for the very fact that I know they cannot be talking about the girl sitting next to me.

I'm not sure where you're going with this. Are you saying that if you didn't have a girl sitting next to you, the pronoun "he" would be meaningless to you, and you would be fine with, "she?" Does your personal pronoun only become important in distinguishing from female-identified persons? What about in the presence of other male-identified persons?
I'm confused.

Because, to be hung up on terminology does not allow one to move past it.

Defining terms is incredibly important, otherwise the discourse does not progress. You cannot effectively dismantle what you do not understand, and you cannot replace it with something better without understanding why the original structure was deficient in the first place.

I agree that we can all work on our sensitivity, awareness, and maturity, but I already said that we need to talk to people on a case-by-case basis instead of making a thread that's likely to make the people who don't already agree with you feel super defensive. That's not really going to change minds. Unfortunately I have to leave for work, so I can't really go into this more.

I think there's some confusion over how this essay was conceptualised and why it was posted. What I'm gathering is that you believe it to have been the result of some recent specific argument or event or moderating decision in which I was involved. But that's a guess, a pretty big one on my part, because I really don't have any idea to what you're referring. I thought I may have had an idea, but now I'm really sure I don't. I promise you, I really have no idea who these "people who don't already agree with [me]" are or why this essay would have them "feel super defensive." I am not thinking of any one single person or any specific group of people.

In any case, if I am reading between the lines correctly, and that is what you are implying here, allow me to say in no uncertain terms that the genesis for this essay long predates any specific, recent events or moderating decisions. I've been meaning to write this essay for months, at least. It has been an issue I have witnessed and experienced for years. Although there have been a few recent incidents which sparked a return to my notes on this subject, the essay itself has been in bits and pieces for a while. It is absolutely not a response to any one specific event, or even a few recent events. It is a feminist critique of many, many events over my entire time as a member of the Org.

This is an essay, not a revenge thread. You might think of it as an academic article or blog post, one which has comments enabled. It was always my understanding that General AMV was the place for essays/articles that dealt with AMVs or the AMV community. The one thing that sets this article apart versus previous articles by other members, or even by myself, which have been posted here is that it is a feminist critique, obeys certain intertextual rules of feminist discourse (which is why "feminist critique" is so clearly stated in the title), and is for me, something like the latest in a series of articles dealing with issues within feminism. While I have shared no other essays/articles here, I ask that those editors who are readers of my work (like Otohiko and CorpseGoddess) not to betray the compartmentalisation of my pseudonyms, while also backing me up when I say that this type of essay is pretty par the course for the type of work I do. But why should looking at experiences within AMV spaces from a feminist lens be disallowed? What rules have I broken?

In large part the essay was a call "to talk to people on a case-by-case basis." If you're already doing that, that's awesome! I'm genuinely relieved to hear that, but this essay wasn't meant for you (or at least, not you individually), it was meant for the entire community. All of us. And identifying that misogynistic behavior is an issue, at least for some of us, and makes AMV spaces unsafe, at least for some of us, seems to me to be no different than other issues we've identified as problematic in these spaces. Have we not discussed issues of image? Of reputation? Of elitism? Have we not tried to clarify how we treat the new and the uninitiated? Have we not given feedback on how we would like the format of the forums and the database to better reflect changes in technology and attitudes of different internet "generations?" Are we not concerned with ethical issues of fairness, and the rules and structure of AMV contests? Why is a feminist break down of misogynistic tendencies any different? Why is it unwelcome? It is a valid approach.

I do not understand how addressing issues "case-by-case" necessitates not discussing these issues in non-specific aggregate. Why can we not do both?

[aesling]

Ok, I apologize for the incoherence/incompleteness of my post earlier this morning. I wanted to post more, but I literally had to run out the door, and I mostly felt the need to respond to Otohiko in a more immediate fashion. First, let me clear the air here. I did not honestly intend for this discourse to become about your moderation decisions. That's not what I was trying to get out in this morning's post, and what was intended to be a minor comment on a pattern I have observed became a bigger deal than it really should have because clarification was dragged out over several posts. So, to clarify what I did actually mean:

I get that talking about issues in a general sense is important. However, you're asking the community to make very specific changes. To change, people have to know what they're doing wrong and when. Impiety's first post in this thread is a perfect example of what I'm getting at. Impiety's friends may make some insensitive jokes in private, but Impiety believes them to be generally good people who are usually respectful of women in practice. I bet Impiety's friends don't think of themselves as misogynists, and it seems like this is the type of person you're trying to reach with your post.

You're not going to convince assholes to not be assholes, but there are people out there who are more reasonable who may not realize some of the things they say aren't ok. However, I feel you make some pretty big blanket assumptions about general attitudes, an the meme photos you use are rather...aggressive...in attacking an issue that I know has been big on various parts of the internet (fake nerd girls), but I have not really seen much of here. This may come off as you implying that groups of people here think certain things when they do not, which would make anyone feel defensive. You're not calling out anyone specifically, but you've made clear you're calling out absolutely EVERYONE with this assumed behavior. You don't want to be labeled, but you are in turn applying the misogyny label incredibly broadly.

I don't think it's fair to apply that term so broadly, because I really don't agree we come from a culture where it's considered the social norm (or genuinely socially acceptable) to hate women. We certainly do have a past that we are still working to free ourselves from, and we should all means keep an open dialogue about that. But it's not part of the established tradition to cut girl's genitals in this country, nor am I likely to get shot for encouraging women to go to school. Women have pretty strong roles in our society that continue to evolve, and while I think we've made a lot less progress on front of gender norms, this is why it's important to actually talk to people about it when it comes up, so we can change attitudes, and changing people is unfortunately a slow process. I also don't want to come off like I'm condoning certain behavior, because I certainly am not, but a public space is never going to be a completely safe one. There are always going to be people with differing attitudes, and you will never know if you can reason with them unless you try. If a space is to be safe for you, it either has to be private, or you have to censor it completely (which is the only reason I brought your attitudes towards moderation in the first place). In either case you are only building an echo chamber, and overall nothing actually changes.

[imp]

Well, thanks for your response. I guess I can't give more to that discussion, I get your point (I think), Aesling seems to get where I'm coming from.
But my head hurts, this whole topic + the comments are written above my English knowledge grade, so translating is pretty tiresome (fun fact: had to google translate misogyny before I even knew what this topic was about)
I believe it's good to call out the whole community to at least think about this topic. Only going case by case doesn't work imo, people seem to think highly of themselves, so they don't see their own fault when someone else is being called out for something (this is from experience on a total different matter, so it might not be applicable to this topic). And they certainly won't if the other person is called out in private.

[AMVGuide]

Why is a feminist break down of misogynistic tendencies any different? Why is it unwelcome? It is a valid approach.

I do want to highlight the point that nobody is really arguing with you. This is not a fight. This is a cooperative discussion to showcase different viewpoints in hopes of better understanding the issue. So, expect people to look at this from non-feminist perspectives as well. Otherwise, this thread has already served it's purpose within the first post.

I get that talking about issues in a general sense is important. However, you're asking the community to make very specific changes. To change, people have to know what they're doing wrong and when.

yes!

...keeping a timestamped list of such observations as they happen (well-documented evidence is crucial to building any sort of case towards real change). That way, we can notice patterns --with solid proof-- and actually work on solutions to be prepared for such situations as they arise.

It's not as intense as it sounds. Even something causal is better than well... .... you know.... if we don't have something specific to talk about, we're effectively talking about nothing; or at the very least, Theory that is very unlikely to be Applied in any sort of capacity.

------------------------------

That being said, I think we've covered some pretty decent theoretical ground already, so all I can do is respond until we reach some kind of balance; lest this devolve into one of those classic illusions of attrition, where the last person thinks they 'win.' This is Cooperation, not Competition-- as goes with all forms of communication. I just want to make that clear to those reading this that may be thinking otherwise.

As suggested by others, I'll PM you the rest of my response.

[Kionon]

Ok, I apologize for the incoherence/incompleteness of my post earlier this morning. I wanted to post more, but I literally had to run out the door, and I mostly felt the need to respond to Otohiko in a more immediate fashion.

It's cool. I was really confused, and I was really hoping for a PM since it seemed like you were speaking about someone specific. Hence why I was like, "Huh, is she talking about moderating decisions? Have I targeted someone unfairly?"

I get that talking about issues in a general sense is important. However, you're asking the community to make very specific changes. To change, people have to know what they're doing wrong and when. Impiety's first post in this thread is a perfect example of what I'm getting at. Impiety's friends may make some insensitive jokes in private, but Impiety believes them to be generally good people who are usually respectful of women in practice. I bet Impiety's friends don't think of themselves as misogynists, and it seems like this is the type of person you're trying to reach with your post.

I'm asking people to use their best judgement. I'm trusting the commentariat to develop something of a hivemind on this based on shared values of what is and is not acceptable dialogue here. I'm not trying to be overly politically correct, but there is a line, and I think most of us know where that line is. If we don't know where that line is, and we cannot agree on where that line is, then we need to have another discussion: one that has us hammer out an understanding of who we are, what we represent, and what we will and will not tolerate. I actually feel we already have that, and I'm just calling us to honor it, but maybe I'm wrong. Maybe we have to go back to square one.

But, I agree impiety's friends are probably people who are decent people. They are probably are usually respectful of women in practice. I bet they don't think of themselves as misogynists, and they probably aren't. But they still say misogynistic comments, and that is not okay. It is rather someone like Impiety I am trying to reach, which is why I was so glad she asked if she should confront them. For me, the answer is yes. She should. And if they're not misogynists, they should say, "Oh, wow, you're right. That was pretty shitty. I wasn't thinking about the consequences of my comments. I'm sorry. I'll try not to do that again!" If they tell her to fuck off, or call her a humorless bitch (haven't we all met that guy?), then, they're probably misogynists. I don't suspect Impiety's friends are like that.

You're not going to convince assholes to not be assholes, but there are people out there who are more reasonable who may not realize some of the things they say aren't ok. However, I feel you make some pretty big blanket assumptions about general attitudes, an the meme photos you use are rather...aggressive...in attacking an issue that I know has been big on various parts of the internet (fake nerd girls), but I have not really seen much of here.

I forgot to source those, by the way. The source is Rachel Edidin, who is the editor of Dark Horse Comics. I'm used to writing feminist articles with images. The spaces I'm published on have very comprehensive formatting features, so this would tend to look a lot better. With the images, you're right that I don't think I've ever heard anyone over the years call a woman editor a "fake editor," but I've certainly seen almost all of Edidin's chosen comments or actions in AMV spaces over the years. And there are some truly horrid behavior I have witnessed at conventions, namely AWA (although that is not a reflection on the AWA VAT, and should not be construed as such).

So, let me see if I understand this correctly, you're saying that you do not believe that it is a serious issue? I don't want to make this thread about specific individuals, which is why this essay was far more theoretical and academic. However, let me get more specific without getting too specific and naming names. I have a long list of comments I've seen and comments which have been brought to my attention. I have PMs sitting in my box right now going back a while with complaints from people about how hostile the IRC has been. They go back years. Some are really blatant. Others are less overt but still pretty creepy. I could make an entire post that is just quote after quote. If I just scan the forums, I bet I can find more recent stuff (although, some of it is pretty darn recent already). And it's really these comments about others which gave rise to this essay. I'm very unclear how you can say this is not a serious issue. The evidence would suggest otherwise.

Yet make no mistake, I'm most definitely aware of all of the misogyny (and yes, that is the proper term for it, and I can give you the academic breakdown as to why, if this is something you are interested in hearing) directed at me over the years. Part of it was my own fault for allowing godix a lot of leeway. This leeway was badly misunderstood. And this is why I personally know the danger of in-jokes. Godix was given explicit permission to play upon his asshole persona (a persona we all knew or should have known was fake, satirical, and pure parody). In private, godix was one of the most respectful, understanding, and genuinely kind people I have known in the hobby. However, for years, others have appropriated this leeway which I have not given, and do not allow, for others.

Yet I have repeatedly asked, especially now that godix has passed away, for people to back off. It took me a while to start doing even that. And I agonised over rocking to boat. Yet, when I have asked people to cease, they have not. Have not. Present tense. It is still happening. So please do not imply (if this is what you are doing, and you may not be) that I'm somehow exempt from this experience myself or that my own experiences of this as a serious issue, one I have sometimes dealt with daily from certain individuals, are somehow invalid. That just makes me feel like crap all over again.

This may come off as you implying that groups of people here think certain things when they do not, which would make anyone feel defensive. You're not calling out anyone specifically, but you've made clear you're calling out absolutely EVERYONE with this assumed behavior. You don't want to be labeled, but you are in turn applying the misogyny label incredibly broadly.

I'm actually saying we're not doing a very good job of policing each other on this issue. I'm not so much calling us out for being misogynistic, but rather allowing misogyny to go by unremarked upon. Misogyny is not a label, misogynist is a label. That may sound pedantic, but it is really is an important distinction to be made. There are very few individuals who I would call actual misogynists, as that implies some willful knowledge of hating women. You don't have to be a racist to say racially insensitive comments. My big struggle is with ableism, but I don't hate disabled people. When people call me out on my ableist comments, I do a facepalm, feel terrible, and apologise. Which is good, because I said something shitty, and I need to be called out for it. I'm especially bad about how I talk about mental illness. Some people are particularly bad about how they discuss women or issues women typically face. Hopefully, they get called out, and they thank the person who called them out. That's how this should work.

I don't think it's fair to apply that term so broadly, because I really don't agree we come from a culture where it's considered the social norm (or genuinely socially acceptable) to hate women.

Our issue with misogyny is more subtle. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist or that that attitudes and behaviors it produces don't have real effects or consequences for the community. I do however believe we come from a culture where it's considered the norm to ignore, marginalise, or restrict women's voices, actions, and freedom. This is especially true of women who lack privilege on other intersections. We've made a lot of gains for middle to upperclass, straight, white women (Second Wavers), but we still have a long way to go in terms of women of color, lesbian and bisexual women, lower income women, trans women, disabled women, etc. Are other places worse? Yes. Are other places better? Also yes. Still, there's work to be done. If I didn't believe this, I wouldn't be a feminist. Certainly not an active, engaged, intersectional feminist, who is building something of portfolio writing on these issues.

Yeah, tackling misogyny in AMVs is a "first world" feminist issue, but that doesn't make it unimportant, just perhaps less important. Yet one of the ways in which problematic structures avoid being dismantled is the belief that the small stuff can wait until the big stuff gets overcome. And yet then, we suddenly realise we've done nothing about all that "little" stuff, and it's everywhere, pervasive, and still very problematic.

Women have pretty strong roles in our society that continue to evolve, and while I think we've made a lot less progress on front of gender norms, this is why it's important to actually talk to people about it when it comes up, so we can change attitudes, and changing people is unfortunately a slow process.

Stronger roles, I would agree. I think we're on the same page here.

I also don't want to come off like I'm condoning certain behavior, because I certainly am not, but a public space is never going to be a completely safe one. There are always going to be people with differing attitudes, and you will never know if you can reason with them unless you try. If a space is to be safe for you, it either has to be private, or you have to censor it completely (which is the only reason I brought your attitudes towards moderation in the first place). In either case you are only building an echo chamber, and overall nothing actually changes.

Okay, I find this view to be problematic. I don't think a space has to be completely censored or completely private to be generally safe. No space is going to be perfectly safe, no. Yet I am not calling for a perfectly safe space. I am calling for generally safe space. I exist in several spaces which I consider safe that have, perhaps, a heavier moderating hand, but are by no means censor happy. They're public spaces; VERY public. And I've run across a couple of editors who do know all of my pseudonyms because they also frequent these spaces. CorpseGoddess is the example I used earlier, but she's not the only one.

So what makes them different? People call out others, and others desire to be called out. If someone is called out, refuses to acknowledge it, and throws a fit about it, they are generally asked to leave or are ignored until they leave. This does not create an echo chamber. There's a a lot of differences of opinion which can exist in such a space, and sometimes there are some pretty feisty discussions. What we have very little of, however, is intentional mocking of serious points or attempts at derailing. And that's because individuals who do these things are shown the door, literally via some type of moderation or figuratively by community wide decisions to ignore those individuals. This creates a space which is generally quite safe, even with high numbers of users, and high numbers of new, recently arrived members.

We can do this, I know we can.

.

But my head hurts, this whole topic + the comments are written above my English knowledge grade, so translating is pretty tiresome (fun fact: had to google translate misogyny before I even knew what this topic was about)

Yes, I'm sorry, I can't write this in any other language, and one of the additional problems with Second Wave feminism which intersectional feminism hasn't really dealt with, and should, is how much of feminist thought is English-centric. I've found that many of the terms I've been using have been wholesale copied, in their English forms, into feminist writings in other languages. We don't have a lot of native, non-English voices in intersectional feminism, and right now, I think being an English speaker is, in some ways, also a privileged position. That's worth exploring, and as an English teacher in a non-English speaking country, I think I might be able to turn that into a really great article. So thanks for bringing that up!

[quoteI believe it's good to call out the whole community to at least think about this topic. Only going case by case doesn't work imo, people seem to think highly of themselves, so they don't see their own fault when someone else is being called out for something (this is from experience on a total different matter, so it might not be applicable to this topic). And they certainly won't if the other person is called out in private.[/quote]

Agreed. It works for some, but I think some people really need more than a person to person challenge. Some people, and I am not excluded on some topics (for example, ableism), need a call out from everyone in the area saying, "Woah, that was across the line. Here's why it's problematic. It's cool, we understand people make mistakes, please don't do it again."

I do want to highlight the point that nobody is really arguing with you. This is not a fight. This is a cooperative discussion to showcase different viewpoints in hopes of better understanding the issue. So, expect people to look at this from non-feminist perspectives as well. Otherwise, this thread has already served it's purpose within the first post.

...this is exactly what I've been saying. I definitely do not consider this a fight or a competition. Nor am I angry. I've had a frustration here and there, but honestly, I haven't been really upset in a very long time, and I'm really liking that change in myself. Now, back to the topic at hand:

I started from a feminist perspective, and that is how I am going to approach objections or commentary, but I certainly hope this is a cooperative discussion to showcase different viewpoints of better understanding the issue. I do expect others, in fact, encourage others to look at the problem of misogyny from other vantage points. Otohiko has a different educational background than I do (as does aesling, as do you, and I respect all of these backgrounds), and he still believes that misogyny is something of an issue in our AMV communities, even if he comes at it from a different vantage point. I don't want to speak for him, so I will leave it at that. This was an essay, with "comments enabled." So, no, the discussion is definitely not over with the initial post, which welcomed and encouraged discourse.

I do believe there are some differences in how this is perceived or conceptualised, and these differences are quite serious. What I think I am hearing is that so far there are individuals who see the events I've highlighted as individualised incidents of people being insensitive (or assholes, but aesling is right, haters gonna hate), but no overall structural, systemic failure in how we operate as a community. This is, I think, for me, is the point of contention between myself and what has been articulated. I see this as a systemic problem, and I have too many points of data now, to dismiss this as an issue with that "rare" or "occasional" insensitive comment (or the "rare" asshole, for that matter). I believe that these incidents are pervasive, in some cases near daily occurrences, and that we have more than our fair share of assholes.

So to get us back on topic; is this issue systemic or pervasive? And if it is, what is the issue with having a general community wide consensus with taking a more active role in combatting it?

[post-it]

Being a girl, our parents set our limitations. I didn't understand why, I just accepted it. Finishing college I joined the military. T__T .. By my 26th birthday, it was "understood" that people are as-they-are and so I play the game. No one likes it! I'll be 27 soon and the only true friend that I have is my dad ( post-it )
He once told me that we are coming to american to get away from the trouble in the streets and to learn one common language instead of forteen as he grew up with. He was strick and I can honestly say that he did have my best intrest while raising me.
He also had a phrase that actually came true, "no matter what you say or do in life, live every minute of because it will never happen again -- no matter how hard you try." After seeing some of the posts he's made I'm suprised this board hasn't banned him for misunderstandung the question! -- JW

[Sephiroth]

If i don't speak up about something, that is engaging in it? Really, so by that logic if i don't speak about Pedophilia or speak out against it i'm a Pedophiles despite the topic never coming up. Your logic is astoundingly absurd. Because the majority of editors are men = AMVs must be sexist. And a UFO is an alien instead of a Unidentified Flying Object.

The majority of Psychologists are female, by your logic Psychology hates men. Correlation does not equal causation.

"Despite the number of outstanding, amazing, veteran women editors we have, these spaces are still overwhelmingly male dominated. And that is a problem."
That is not a problem, a real problem would be if there was deliberate cordinated effort to keep women out, which there isn't. If anything especially with AMVs. No one knows that much about the person who made them, you could even pretend to be another gender if you wanted. Does the audience know the gender of anyone who made said random videos at a con? They may know some of the people if they had a panel but do you think that anyone would look at a video say its good and then when they hear a women made it suddenly hate it. So yes more men then women make amvs. and???? that by itself doesn't prove anything.

There is nothing no one i have ever seen in 15+ years of editing untold cons and meeting other editors that ever had anyone say or express a feeling of women shouldn't be making AMVs and by inferring that you are insulting and demonizing everyone ive ever met in this hoby. You are a horrible human being and if you continue to infer that the AMV community hates women i don't want anything to do with you. Not because your a feminist or a women, but because you have just insulted everyone else in a unfair and patronizing manor by infering that they have furthered sexist behaviors and attitudes, or actively engaged in them.