Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Critique

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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Post by Radical_Yue » Sat May 25, 2013 7:02 pm

Hey aesling, where the fuck is my sammich?

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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Post by post-it » Sat May 25, 2013 7:15 pm

. Gender Neutral T__T .. ain't happening! Girls are seen as the one who gives birth and raises the kids. Governments see girls as money-spending-freeloaders. Smarts are waisted on teaching them because all they understand is Spend Spend Spend!!!!
. The actual truth is "not allowed" because "we haven't seen the differance"!!!!

. Until TV and Radio display girls as useful instead of Play Pretties, its a man world.
. Gays and Lesbiens are even lower than Black Males ( be glad your not one of them )

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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Post by Otohiko » Sat May 25, 2013 7:18 pm

NME wrote:tl;dr

applying this theory to everything under the sun exposes it to be complete balderdash

good work
yes, because calling someone's elaborated views with unsubstantiated tl; dr is a solid invalidation strategy.
If you're gonna expose something as bunk, put some thought into it. Hit-and-run hostility is not welcome here, consider this an official caution.
aesling wrote:Is it an excuse to personally target people who disagree with you for further future punishment? No, definitely not. :nono:
I'm not sure what you're getting at, actually. I think there's a pretty clear line between disagreement, political correctness, and obvious slurs and mistreatment. I don't think those should be allowed to pass any more than, say, racist slurs. From my perspective as a mod, I'd love it if people could keep the environment friendly for everybody. I'd be the the first to say that some behaviors need to be targeted, and I don't see downsides to that... is that really just an opinion thing?
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Post by AMVGuide » Sat May 25, 2013 7:31 pm

I think all we can do is try to be more gender neutral, and calmly address these issues as they crop up.

The way I see it, there will always be exaggerated polarization of gender based on biological sex. It's simply more convenient to assign gender roles based on something arbitrary, and I'm pretty sure that's where it comes from: Females being the bearer of children naturally take on a more submissive role. As a result, that role gets exaggerated further and further until we have the social construction we have today. (Though it can occur the opposite too: I hear in Jamaica, women are the head of the household)
Kionon wrote:"...on our own side of the computer screen. But what about those individuals who don't get the joke?"
In Communication Theory, this is called Overshoot Interference, where someone recieves a signal that was not intended for them; and misinterpretation occurs. I agree that people need to avoid doing things like that-- and not just from a feminist standpoint. I see editors polarized on Effects vs No-Effects all the time; and it does come through in the way they communicate.

But again, all we can really do is calmly address these issues as they crop up. Preferrably keeping a timestamped list of such observations as they happen (well-documented evidence is crucial to building any sort of case towards real change). That way, we can notice patterns --with solid proof-- and actually work on solutions to be prepared for such situations as they arise.

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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Post by aesling » Sat May 25, 2013 7:50 pm

Otohiko wrote:
aesling wrote:Is it an excuse to personally target people who disagree with you for further future punishment? No, definitely not. :nono:
I'm not sure what you're getting at, actually. I think there's a pretty clear line between disagreement, political correctness, and obvious slurs and mistreatment. I don't think those should be allowed to pass any more than, say, racist slurs. From my perspective as a mod, I'd love it if people could keep the environment friendly for everybody. I'd be the the first to say that some behaviors need to be targeted, and I don't see downsides to that... is that really just an opinion thing?
You honestly don't see anything wrong with calling certain users misogynistic, then specifically saying you're going to target them differently than you will other rule-breakers? Anyway, I apologize for not being more specific, I'm just honestly not sure what I'm allowed to share on that front.

I really do agree with AMVGuide in that you have to call people out on stuff as it happens, but it probably works better if we do it on a more personal level. If something offends you, talk to that person as another human being. I think most people will respond to being reasoned with, rather than talked down to.

Also:
Radical_Yue wrote:Hey aesling, where the fuck is my sammich?
YOU BITCH! >:O
:ying:

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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Post by Kionon » Sat May 25, 2013 8:01 pm

aesling wrote:You honestly don't see anything wrong with calling certain users misogynistic, then specifically saying you're going to target them differently than you will other rule-breakers? Anyway, I apologize for not being more specific, I'm just honestly not sure what I'm allowed to share on that front.
I don't have any problem calling out a misogynistic comment when I see it. And I don't have a problem with calling someone who repeatedly engages in misogynistic behavior misogynistic. You might want to send me a PM. I think I know to whom you're referring, and if so, that is definitely a discussion which is not appropriate for this forum, but it is a very important discussion to have, and I will absolutely have it with you. I also could be completely wrong, and I might have no idea to whom you're referring. So in that case, it really is a good idea to let me know.
I really do agree with AMVGuide in that you have to call people out on stuff as it happens, but it probably works better if we do it on a more personal level. If something offends you, talk to that person as another human being. I think most people will respond to being reasoned with, rather than talked down to.
I'm not calling out anyone specifically because this is a culture-wide. I'm calling us all out. And I am not condescending to anyone, far from it. I do think we have an issue accepting that intersectionality is real and just because something is not a problem for some of us that it isn't a problem for any of us.
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Post by Kionon » Sat May 25, 2013 8:07 pm

post-it wrote:. Gender Neutral T__T .. ain't happening! Girls are seen as the one who gives birth and raises the kids. Governments see girls as money-spending-freeloaders. Smarts are waisted on teaching them because all they understand is Spend Spend Spend!!!!
. The actual truth is "not allowed" because "we haven't seen the differance"!!!!

. Until TV and Radio display girls as useful instead of Play Pretties, its a man world.
. Gays and Lesbiens are even lower than Black Males ( be glad your not one of them )
...There's so much to address here, I don't even know where to start. You've identified a lot of issues with the worth of women as defined by reproduction value, the idea of women as materialist consumers, educational attitudes, media portrayals of women, and even attempted (I think?) to address intersectionality of misogyny and homophobia.

But that last comment, perhaps due to the language issue, is super problematic. First because I'm no fan of playing Oppression Olympics, we all have reasons we are discriminated against, and we have traits that allow us to avoid certain kinds of discrimination (in feminist and critical race theories, we call those traits "privileges"), intersectionality recognises that that oppression of, say a black straight male and a white lesbian are both different and therefore comparisons between them directly are questionable.

I'm not sure what you're getting at with the parenthetical statement. How do you know I'm not a lesbian?
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Post by Kionon » Sat May 25, 2013 8:23 pm

AMVGuide wrote:The way I see it, there will always be exaggerated polarization of gender based on biological sex. It's simply more convenient to assign gender roles based on something arbitrary...
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Gender is a social construction, although it is a real one, with real consequences. I'm not going to go all Judith Butler on you about gender performativity and the inability to overcome, but rather transform the current gender paradigm, but I will leave you this link of JB explaining her views to cats. Sex as a dimorphic reality is also a social construction, given the consequences of being XXY, XXXXY, XX with high levels of testosterone during fetal development, genetic chimerism, and androgen receptivity problems. It's a mess.
In Communication Theory, this is called Overshoot Interference, where someone recieves a signal that was not intended for them; and misinterpretation occurs. I agree that people need to avoid doing things like that-- and not just from a feminist standpoint.


Good to know! *saves in brain* Overshoot Interference, I like that!
But again, all we can really do is calmly address these issues as they crop up. Preferrably keeping a timestamped list of such observations as they happen (well-documented evidence is crucial to building any sort of case towards real change). That way, we can notice patterns --with solid proof-- and actually work on solutions to be prepared for such situations as they arise.
Agreed, but understanding the theory behind the issues is also really important to solving the issues, or at least reducing it, in my view.
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Post by AMVGuide » Sat May 25, 2013 11:00 pm

AMVGuide wrote:The way I see it, there will always be exaggerated polarization of gender based on biological sex. It's simply more convenient to assign gender roles based on something arbitrary...
Kionon wrote:Gender is a social construction, although it is a real one, with real consequences. I'm not going to go all Judith Butler on you about gender performativity and the inability to overcome, but rather transform the current gender paradigm, but I will leave you this link of JB explaining her views to cats. Sex as a dimorphic reality is also a social construction, given the consequences of being XXY, XXXXY, XX with high levels of testosterone during fetal development, genetic chimerism, and androgen receptivity problems. It's a mess.

Well, I meant that we generally assign gender based on sex-- if sex can be determined via the traditional test. And the majority of the time doctors can say "It's a boy" or "It's a girl." Of course, it's not always that easy, hence why I said it's an arbitrary relationship. And yet, we as people make assignments like that intentionally out of convenience; save for those that wish to fight for their unique identity the rest of their lives. It just seems more reasonable to adopt oneself into one of those 'boxes' as you put it; especially when the label is only as meaningful as the social construction that created it-- often serving some kind of function in communication: I want people to refer to me as "he," for the very fact that I know they cannot be talking about the girl sitting next to me. And that's about the extent of function most people want to get out of Gender, outside of sexual discourse. Because, to be hung up on terminology does not allow one to move past it. Much the same, all communication is about --hearing the message not the words-- no matter what gender said it.

Yet, I certainly agree that problems arise when extra meanings are attached to such terms. Like the term Man. I will probably never call myself a Man despite being male, and over the age of 21. Too much baggage with the word. I prefer Guy or Gentlemen; and I can enjoy the perks of being in that category. Likewise, you may find females don't always like being called Woman either; but that doesn't stop them from enjoying the perks of being a Lady. If I'm not mistaken, that's the whole message behind Lady Gaga. And she even takes it one step further by preferring just Gaga instead of Lady... trying to show people that we should all call each other by Name instead --given or chosen-- in order to enjoy the perks of being Yourself.

So... yeah... username-gender-ambiguity is always going to be an issue on the Org. But in a lot of ways it can be used as a positive thing: I can become the entity known as AMVGuide, and people aren't going to judge me based on assumed gender connotations.
Kionon wrote:understanding the theory behind the issues is also really important to solving the issues, or at least reducing it, in my view.
Oh, for sure. You need both: Theory to understand it; and Application to make real change. I like to think of Theory as a way to step outside the box; and Application as a way to step inside the box. But when the time comes to step back inside the box... you surree better be right about everything you said about that damn box! :nose:

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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Post by Otohiko » Sat May 25, 2013 11:17 pm

aesling wrote:
I really do agree with AMVGuide in that you have to call people out on stuff as it happens, but it probably works better if we do it on a more personal level. If something offends you, talk to that person as another human being. I think most people will respond to being reasoned with, rather than talked down to.
I also agree with that, and believe me, as a mod, I personally try. Sometimes people don't respond though. Calling people out in public can be really important. If something is not ok, not confronting it then and there is a bad thing.

And yes, absolutely, one issue shouldn't be singled out over others, but it's important to be able to talk about it, and be able to take it from substantial perspectives. Kio might be a bit too academic here, but there's some really great points raised that would be good to discuss.
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