P.O.E Season 3 : Round 1 - "The King of Spring"

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Re: P.O.E Season 3 : Round 1 - "The King of Spring"

Postby Kimberly » Mon Mar 11, 2013 12:29 am

Kimberly wrote:
Pwolf wrote:
RAWdangers wrote:I say we stop getting on the judges case and telling them how to judge before even one round of judging. No matter what every judge is going to judge slightly differently and its not up to the competitors to decide how they should judge.


But the coordinator has laid out how the judges should judge. I'm only asking that they follow the standard of judging set out by the coordinator. Of which, originality isn't mentioned or clearly defined. The standards, as they are currently written, are clear and I want to make sure the judges are being fair when they are doing their job.

I just wanted to ask, out of curiosity, and I'm not going to change any scores. But how would you judge theme then? Since originality isn't included, would you give full points for the theme if they chose to do Summer and just put a bunch of Summer scenes in their video?

Correction: Beach, boobs and scenes with the sun. That typa stuff.
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Re: P.O.E Season 3 : Round 1 - "The King of Spring"

Postby RAWdangers » Mon Mar 11, 2013 12:36 am

Pwolf wrote:
But the coordinator has laid out how the judges should judge. I'm only asking that they follow the standard of judging set out by the coordinator. Of which, originality isn't mentioned or clearly defined. The standards, as they are currently written, are clear and I want to make sure the judges are being fair when they are doing their job.


But that's your own interpretation of the rules. A judge may see the rules and interpret concept as having some originality. While you think its laid our perfectly clearly, I think there's plenty of room for interpretation in the code's standards. These are guidelines for the judges, not strict code. And judging in its very essence is based on a lot of opinion. If we were able to numerically assign a score to every video based on some completely fair and logical scale there would be no need for people to judge. However, we can't do that. Thus we must rely on people with opinions to do their best. Each judge has a different opinion on what meets concept standards and what doesn't and they are entitled to that opinion.

We are creating a problem where one doesn't even exist yet. Have a little faith in the judges to do their job.
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Re: P.O.E Season 3 : Round 1 - "The King of Spring"

Postby Rendakor » Mon Mar 11, 2013 12:41 am

I disagree RAWdangers; the only fair time to discuss judging, criteria, etc. is now, before the first round of scores has been posted. To do so afterwards would just seem like complaining because Video X won while Video Y lost, and thus unlikely to result in any change for that or future rounds.
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Re: P.O.E Season 3 : Round 1 - "The King of Spring"

Postby Pwolf » Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:21 am

Kimberly wrote:I just wanted to ask, out of curiosity, and I'm not going to change any scores. But how would you judge theme then? Since originality isn't included, would you give full points for the theme if they chose to do Summer and just put a bunch of Summer scenes in their video?


First off, can I figure out what the theme is based on the concept of the video? In this round's case, can I tell which season they are trying to portray? Secondly, how well are they incorporating the theme into their concept? Is is just a video set in spring/winter/fall/summer or is it actually part of their concept? If it's just a video with no conceptual connection to the theme, then I would give them points for at least using the theme in their video but not for actually using the theme in any meaningful way.

Without going into too much about which video was mine, I tried to show my season as a source or remembrance for the character's involved. It wasn't so much about the season but more about the memories during that time of year and how much that means to the characters. Wither or not you as the judge could figure that out would determine how many points I got in both concept and theme. It's my job as the editor to best visualize my concept so that you can understand it. As a judge, if I am not able to do that then the video would just look like a video set in some random season to you.

RAWdangers wrote: Each judge has a different opinion on what meets concept standards and what doesn't and they are entitled to that opinion.


This is why guidelines are used, so that there is no confusion. Don't get me wrong, you are allowed to have an opinion within the guidelines but follow the guidelines as they are laid out, not what your opinion might be of the guidelines. What's the point of having standards if no one follows them? Hell, this statement says it all:

Each video will be judged based upon the following criteria:


Not "could be judged" or "may be judged" "Will". I expect the videos to be judged as outlined, not "as outlined based on what the judges think it should be".
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Re: P.O.E Season 3 : Round 1 - "The King of Spring"

Postby MycathatesyouAMV » Mon Mar 11, 2013 3:38 am

Fuck originality, as long as there was some boobies in the hot summer sun, I expect to see good scores on videos like that.
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Re: P.O.E Season 3 : Round 1 - "The King of Spring"

Postby GuntherAMVs » Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:11 am

Oh, cool~
Debates OwO~
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Re: P.O.E Season 3 : Round 1 - "The King of Spring"

Postby kireblue » Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:12 am

I just wanted to tell everyone that due to me being extremely exhausted from running a convention this weekend, I still haven't gotten all of my scores in. I'm judging everything right now, but its gonna take just a little bit more time. So everybody, don't blame Code for not having the scores ready right now.
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Re: P.O.E Season 3 : Round 1 - "The King of Spring"

Postby GuntherAMVs » Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:23 am

kireblue wrote:I just wanted to tell everyone that due to me being extremely exhausted from running a convention this weekend, I still haven't gotten all of my scores in. I'm judging everything right now, but its gonna take just a little bit more time. So everybody, don't blame Code for not having the scores ready right now.

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Re: P.O.E Season 3 : Round 1 - "The King of Spring"

Postby Kitsuner » Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:37 am

RAWdangers wrote:These are guidelines for the judges, not strict code.

I GET IT
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Re: P.O.E Season 3 : Round 1 - "The King of Spring"

Postby [madaraxD] » Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:26 am

MycathatesyouAMV wrote:Fuck originality, as long as there was some boobies in the hot summer sun, I expect to see good scores on videos like that.

aww yeaa |:>
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Re: P.O.E Season 3 : Round 1 - "The King of Spring"

Postby RAWdangers » Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:53 am

Rendakor wrote:I disagree RAWdangers; the only fair time to discuss judging, criteria, etc. is now, before the first round of scores has been posted. To do so afterwards would just seem like complaining because Video X won while Video Y lost, and thus unlikely to result in any change for that or future rounds.


As a competitor, it is not our job to tell the judges how to judge. That is up to Code. Having this entire debate about how to judge before we've even seen how the judges judge seems offensive to the judges in my opinion, as if we are saying that we don't trust them to judge and expect them to conform on our, the competitors, wishes, which they are not supposed to do. I'm not saying that they should be biased or unfair but I'm trusting them to judge fairly, before I have a problem with them. And about complaining afterwards, I agree that it can seem whinny sometimes, but again, if there is a serious problem in the judging, we'll only know after seeing the results. Then you can take that up with Code, and if he agrees, then we have a problem. However, we are creating a problem now, where it doesn't exist.

Pwolf wrote:
This is why guidelines are used, so that there is no confusion. Don't get me wrong, you are allowed to have an opinion within the guidelines but follow the guidelines as they are laid out, not what your opinion might be of the guidelines. What's the point of having standards if no one follows them? Hell, this statement says it all:

Each video will be judged based upon the following criteria:


Not "could be judged" or "may be judged" "Will". I expect the videos to be judged as outlined, not "as outlined based on what the judges think it should be".


Certainly, and I expect them to follow the guidelines. But let's not play the 2nd amendment game and only look at only a portion of what Code posted.

Spoiler :
Section 4 : Judging

Judges will be public, but judging will be blind. Videos MUST retain their anonymity until the end of the round to ensure this. Judges have been instructed to leave short comments regarding the scores given and their overall opinion of your videos. Also, if you're reading this, congratulations for actually reading the entire thread! Please note that you should put an icon/picture of a wizard in your registration post. Posts without wizards will not be considered.

Each video will be judged based upon the following criteria:

Concept: 20 Points
Visual/Audio: 20 Points
Sync/Editing: 20 Points
Theme Challenge: 20 Points
Overall: 20 Points

Concept: If the video has a point to it. Is it 3 minutes of footage slapped onto a song, or is there a purpose behind the editing? While it doesn't necessarily have to have a story, it should still have a purpose/theme behind it.

Visual/Audio: Technical aspect of the video. 10 points for visual and 10 points for audio. Is the footage as clean as it can be? Is the audio as script and clear as can be? Please be sure to take note that older sources will not be penalized for being an old source.

Sync/Editing: How well the video was edited/synced to the music. Does the video and music work well together? Did the editor actually edit the video?

Theme Challenge: How well the video addressed the theme challenge. Does the video attempt to take the challenge into account, or is it just a video for the sake of being a video?

Overall: How the video comes together as a whole. Does the editing/sync, the theme challenge, the technical qualities and the concept meld together well?


Aye, Code gives the criteria that each judge is going to use to "score" the videos. However, he has not laid out a point by point system, dictating what qualifies a 1, 2, 3, . . . 20 score. That is where the judges come in. It is up to them to decide what is a 1, 2, . . . 20, in their opinion while using the guidelines as what they are, a guide. If Code had given a point by point system, in which originality was never mentioned, then i would agree that originality has no part in judging. However, he hasn't, and he's left it up to the judges to interpret the criteria. The judges have to be able to differentiate between the videos and decide who gets to move on, and who gets eliminated, and the idea of originality is certainly, I believe, a fair standard. I'm not saying the a video thats really original but poorly edited should move on over a super well edited video using 5cm, but I do believe that originality is fair game.

In terms of concept, originality fits in, in my opinion, in the fact that the judges must consider what is a good concept and what is a bad concept if they are to be able to differentiate scores. If they were to judge based solely upon a literal interpretation of Code's guidelines, then you are probably going to have 20 or more videos with the same score. And if the judge believes that being more original is part of having a good concept, then that is their interpretation of the criteria and they would still be adhering to Code's guidelines.

We've been focusing on originality as part of concept, but I believe that it could also fit in the Overall criteria. If a video is the same as 20 other videos, than it may not necessarily come together for a judge as a video that is different and stands out.

The quote of Code's rules saying "will be judged on the following criteria" in my opinion is only stating that the judges can't just create a new category called "Originality" and then give points from 1-20, but if they incorporate originality within the criteria Code has given, that should be fair game.

Oh yeah, Kit, feel free to count this xPP
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Re: P.O.E Season 3 : Round 1 - "The King of Spring"

Postby Pwolf » Mon Mar 11, 2013 12:07 pm

Hypothetically speaking, if the judges don't like the sound of the vocals in a song they can remove points for audio. Or maybe they don't like classical music so they knock down points for that. Or what about a judge that doesn't like effects so any video that uses effects will lose points for visuals and editing. If they guidelines are open to interpretation then why not? Is that fair? I certainly hope not.
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Re: P.O.E Season 3 : Round 1 - "The King of Spring"

Postby Kitsuner » Mon Mar 11, 2013 12:08 pm

Twenty judges judging.

RAWdangers wrote: I agree that it can seem whinny sometimes


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCkSJhCD6SA
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Re: P.O.E Season 3 : Round 1 - "The King of Spring"

Postby Kitsuner » Mon Mar 11, 2013 12:18 pm

RAWdangers wrote: I'm not saying that they should be biased or unfair but I'm trusting them to judge fairly, before I have a problem with them. And about complaining afterwards, I agree that it can seem whinny sometimes, but again, if there is a serious problem in the judging, we'll only know after seeing the results. Then you can take that up with Code, and if he agrees, then we have a problem. However, we are creating a problem now, where it doesn't exist.

I think what Scott's saying is that we HAVE had these problems with judging in the past. Yes, most of these judges are new, but editors have been burned by that kind of subjectivity before - especially considering how vague some of the phrasing on some of Code's themes can be.
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Re: P.O.E Season 3 : Round 1 - "The King of Spring"

Postby RAWdangers » Mon Mar 11, 2013 12:19 pm

Pwolf wrote:Hypothetically speaking, if the judges don't like the sound of the vocals in a song they can remove points for audio. Or maybe they don't like classical music so they knock down points for that. Or what about a judge that doesn't like effects so any video that uses effects will lose points for visuals and editing. If they guidelines are open to interpretation then why not? Is that fair? I certainly hope not.


Nice slippery slope argument. If you actually think the judges are going to be that petty, then you have no faith in the judges. I believe this debate is over.
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