Call to Arms: AVTECH4

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Zarxrax
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Re: Call to Arms: AVTECH4

Post by Zarxrax » Fri Aug 17, 2012 10:41 am

EvaFan wrote:Since editing amvs with avs files is being purged, this guide has failed me and anyone else who would have liked to try it (If they were informed about it as a possibility anyway which is typically what I'd have expected from a guide to creating amvs).
Editing with avs files is not a good idea, its just not. There are too many things that can go wrong unless you know exactly what you are doing. And if you need a guide to tell you how, then you probably don't need to be doing it.

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Re: Call to Arms: AVTECH4

Post by mirkosp » Fri Aug 17, 2012 10:42 am

Adding to what Zarxrax said, keep in mind this is thought out to be very BD oriented; DVDs are gatting phased out, albeit slowly, and I'd really like to avoid encouraging people to download footage regularly.
As the only way to be sure to have frame accurate seeking with non MPEG-2 BDs is to use DGDecNV or DGAVCDecDi and as they are, to the best of my knowledge, 32bit only for avs, people using a 64bit NLE with the 64bit avs plugin won't be able to use them. I should have another look at how pismo file mount behaves in 64bit programs, but if it's only safe for 32bit, I'm sorry but I'll avoid suggesting an editing route which cannot be used in 64bit NLEs.
If you don't want to spend money, the alternative is to try ffms2/dss2, which can be hit and miss when you are not asking frames linearly with BD streams, hence you are forced to re-encode regardless.

EDIT: DGAVCDecDi is 32bit only. DGDecNV does have a beta x64 version. That said, I will not put avs 64bit in the avtech, so it necessarily leaves the solution out of the avtech unless pismo works.
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Re: Call to Arms: AVTECH4

Post by Zarxrax » Fri Aug 17, 2012 10:54 am

Splitting the guide into two DEFINITELY is the way to go. Trying to cater to everyone with 1 guide has just led to failure to really meet the needs of either group. There are some people who want to know exactly what is going on, and then there are (the majority of people) who want things to *just work* and could care less how it works.

I would recommend making them two entirely separate entities. I mean don't just write an advanced guide and then try to trim it down in order to make the simple version. The simple version ought to be created from scratch particularly for people who know nothing about video. And a sort of Wizard guide for the simple version might work fine, though I would recommend just a plain index for the advanced guide.

Finally, mirkosp, you already know my feelings on this, but for the simple guide I think it really ought to be kept simple. Most users really don't need to know a lot about colorspace conversions and determining a pulldown pattern. If they can just get their aspect ratio to be somewhere in the right ballpark, it would be a success.
Working with people in the amv hell and amv minis projects, far and away the largest problem that people have is hardly anyone knows how the heck to handle aspect ratios properly. Everything else is just icing on the cake.

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Re: Call to Arms: AVTECH4

Post by mirkosp » Fri Aug 17, 2012 11:01 am

I'd really like for people to get their motion straight. If they IVTC a 60i source or bob/deinterlace a telecined source, it all will look jerky and that is NOT nice to look at. Dups and dropped frames everywhere are more irritating than a wrong AR, seeing how you can't as easily fix those in playback.
I'll try to keep it as simple as possible, but I really want for people to be able to tell what is a 3:2 pulldown and what isn't. Being able to recognize a pattern is pretty much the only way to go. Alternatively, I'd have to ALWAYS have them make 2 scripts and let them grab scenes from the one that seems to have the smoother motion when checking frame by frame (no unique frame drops/no dups).
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Re: Call to Arms: AVTECH4

Post by EvaFan » Fri Aug 17, 2012 11:13 am

Do whatever you want man, your writing the guide. I just didn't think eliminating a possibility was the right way to go with a guide. You could have just as easily not recommended it on the guide. Also I'm not sure why you brought 64 bit into the equation when I didn't even mention it, I'm guessing it was just because I said it and you know I use it.
"The people cannot be [...] always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented, in proportion to [...] the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions, it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to public liberty. What country can preserve its liberties, if it's rulers are not warned [...] that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants."-Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Call to Arms: AVTECH4

Post by mirkosp » Fri Aug 17, 2012 11:14 am

Alright. I confirmed pismo to be working with 32bit dgdecnv and avs and loading the mounted avi in premiere. It took a bit for it to load (seemed like it wanted to crash) but it worked out.
THAT SAID.
EvaFan, you are crazy if you REALLY intend to edit in these conditions. I tested, and as I thought, backward seeking is just a damn pain in the ass. And no, it's not an hardware issue (decode is on gpu, and I'm not doing anything else in the avs, so it's not an avs bottleneck; hardware is not an issue either). It's just that, you know, backward seek in a non I-frame only environment cannot be as smooth as a pure i-frame video. Hence why I *really* want people to use lossless. Lossless clipping is going to take them a dozen GBs or two at worst, and with current prices that is not too much to ask to a person. The other side of the coin from this is that editing will be fast and fun. It's just annoying when you have to wait or things go slow in the NLE, you can't deny that.
I will still include Pismo in the guide, but I will make damn sure that only the masochists with only a couple free GBs total will go through the route...

EDIT: 64bit is part of the equation. The Adobe Creative Suite has moved to 64bit. The 64bit avs plugin is a solution only for those with a vp2 or better nvidia gpu since only dgdecnv is 64bit and is frame accurate with BDs. However since pismo worked, that's going to be "fine," since I can let people use 32bit avs without issues.
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Re: Call to Arms: AVTECH4

Post by EvaFan » Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:46 pm

Yeah I would be pretty crazy to do that with 2 ati cards installed.
"The people cannot be [...] always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented, in proportion to [...] the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions, it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to public liberty. What country can preserve its liberties, if it's rulers are not warned [...] that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants."-Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Call to Arms: AVTECH4

Post by mirkosp » Fri Aug 17, 2012 3:38 pm

Those aren't gonna help at all. Decoding happens on the cpu unless you use a gpu decoder. The only way to do frame accurate gpu decoding in avisynth is through dgdecnv, which requires vp2 or higher (aka nvidia). If you want to use those ati of yours in avisynth (dxva support, I take) then you'll have to go through directshow, I assume, which possibly means DSS2/DirectShowSource, and especially the latter is NOT frame accurate, thus AWFUL for direct amv editing without lossless re-encoding. And yes, you are pretty crazy if you want to do backward seeking with non i-frame only sources and expect it to be blazing fast and frame accurate, there is no questioning it nor hardware bragging involved.
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Re: Call to Arms: AVTECH4

Post by EvaFan » Fri Aug 17, 2012 6:10 pm

I wasnt bragging, I was saying its crazy to use dgdecnv with 2 ati cards.

I dont really care to carry this convo anymore. I used dgavcdec, 32bit avs with mt, and premiere pro 2.0 and the original avs import plugin to make my hotd trailer. all stuff I used originally before cs5. I'm well aware that neuron2 hasn't made a 64bit version of dgavcdecdi yet. I didnt know you planned to make this guide for 64bit only until a few posts in. good luck with the guide. Cant believe I was bothered enough to respond while waking up for some milk, on my phone at that.
"The people cannot be [...] always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented, in proportion to [...] the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions, it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to public liberty. What country can preserve its liberties, if it's rulers are not warned [...] that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants."-Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Call to Arms: AVTECH4

Post by mirkosp » Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:44 pm

No, I don't intend to make it 64bit only. However good support for both 32bit and 64bit NLEs is crucial nowadays. I didn't want to include the avs plugin for premiere exactly because it has the 32/64bit issue, plus it is adobe only. As pismo is a generic solution and seems to work fine both with 32 and 64bit software, I'll stick with that (but will still recommend to use lossless if possible).
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