[beta.a-m-v.org] Hey, we're semi-official

Re: [beta.a-m-v.org] Hey, we're semi-official

Postby Nya-chan Production » Mon Aug 06, 2012 6:33 pm

Pwolf wrote:
Nya-chan Production wrote:I want to go and tell you "I don't think it should be this clean". More people want to, as you've seen. But it's not possible, instead the reply is "You can spend days, or even months on this thing I could try within an hour or so (though maybe later in the project, when more stuff is there). And then present it to me/people and we might consider it. Or throw it away". I doubt anyone would want to spend months on a thing that might get thrown away in a minute.


The situation wouldn't be much different if the languages and frameworks were different. You're still going to have to learn them and that's going to take time. On top of that it's counter productive to just stop what you're doing and start making changes based on request. If you want to make changes, fork the code. If you don't know how, learn how. If it takes months, so be it, at least then you'll have a better understanding of the code and god forbid you help at that point.

You can also open up photoshop and make visual changes yourself.

I think I can agree with most of that (with small differences I won't bother going into). What irks me the most, I suppose, is the very harsh approach to anything that's thrown in. It kind of... keeps me down and often unmotivated to offer anything new or else, because I know it will be shot down anyway, without me really knowing why.
Maybe it's my bad understanding, maybe trythil's over-technicality, probably both, but it just makes the dialogue here very tough. He sees everything I offer as pointless, because he has some aim, and that aim can be really well-thought and good, I can see loads of work behind it. But I can't get the grasp of this aim, because he can't explain it, he always digresses into this or that technical stuff where I stop caring instead: :bear:

I just... don't know how to REALLY help with this project. I know I can't help with this timewise, with helping with 3 cons a year, managing a website and going to work. Forking is something unmanageable for me at this moment. But I DO want to help... Maybe that Photoshop work? But the fact that my ideas aren't even considered and are taken as an attack against...

Gah, I'll just go sleep instead. Oyasumi~n...
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Re: [beta.a-m-v.org] Hey, we're semi-official

Postby Kaream » Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:24 am

@ I fight for the users

I seriously encourage you to keep doing what you are doing and don't lose focus on the re-design project in regards to the feedback.
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Re: [beta.a-m-v.org] Hey, we're semi-official

Postby drewaconclusion » Tue Aug 07, 2012 11:17 pm

BasharOfTheAges wrote:
I Fight For The Users wrote:
BasharOfTheAges wrote:Just gotta say, the sentiment behind "don't like the way I'm doing it? fork your own branch and change things." doesn't really mesh with having a feedback thread - especially if you want feedback from non-developers (i.e. the overwhelming majority of the user-base).


Oh, hi Slashdot. Two responses.

Sanya-nya has suggested changes based on a fundamentally incompatible design philosophy that I have rejected many times. The only solution forward in that case is forking. (Unless there exists a good explanation for why the present philosophy is wrong which nobody has yet advanced.)

Additionally, I am not interested in everyone's feedback. If I seriously considered everyone's opinion, the end product would be shit. I am instead working with a small group of people who I have come to trust. (So far: Ileia, AisuzuZwei, and Brad has chimed in about typefaces.) Membership is not closed, but I do give more serious consideration to feedback that demonstrates more than superficial knowledge of my goals and design principles.

The end product here might still fail, but it won't fail from lack of focus. (You know, because the past few years of this design thing have seen so much progress.)

Oh, I fully understand development choices have to be made and stuck to if progress is to happen. I almost feel like you're presenting a comment box that will get dumped in the trash because it's the polite thing to do and gives the illusion of interaction so you can point to it being there if people complain when it's all done. Like it's just a formality. Stuck between that and doing completely closed door design work, I can see where that might be the more palatable option.

Don't mind me - i just like pointing out things that seem silly to me.
x2 very much so

DriftRoot wrote:Also...I have to say that I look at this design and see something that is highly generic and is presenting a very cold, clinical approach to the AMV hobby. This last is a reputation a-m-v.org has which we all know has turned a lot of people away from this site. It's fine to look like we have a website that knows what it's doing, but where is the fun? Where is the casual love of AMVing? Where's the personality? The current site may be troublesome, but it's got fun colors, fun images and (in certain areas) fun copywriting that all help establish the feel of this site is. Do we really have to abandon all of that personality in pursuit of a more modern, updated website that's all whites and grays? To me this looks like you are re-branding a-m-v.org on top of designing a new website, and since we've been asked to share our opinions, I do not like the way this new a-m-v.org looks or feels for the reasons stated. Maybe more personality will be added into the center, but right now I can't really see what's going to be there...and that still leaves a frame around every page that doesn't exude great personality or brand.

Along these lines, where is space being allocated to effectively branding this website AS a-m-v.org? That whole featured video space at the top...I can't even make out what those images are supposed to be or represent (Princess Tutu, I know), but how is that compelling to click on? There's no hook there than "Featured Video" and a sliced up gallery of partial images. How is a whole, website-wide string of images the most effective way to get people to check out that video? I can't see why it needs to take up that much space or be presented like that. That whole areas is where I would expect to see something that clearly establishes "HEY, You're at a-m-v.org!!"
Drift pretty much summed up what I was originally thinking on the topic, so another x2.
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Re: [beta.a-m-v.org] Hey, we're semi-official

Postby Kaream » Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:11 am

I do agree that the beta interface is a bit bland and could use more features. Featuring one video at a time isn't a good idea, a better idea would be to follow YouTube's 2.0 technique of displaying trending videos. 4 Video thumbnails displayed in horizontal view and simultaneously transition to another 4 set of randomly trending videos.



Also the layout is a bit unusual and outdated, you should get rid of color palette and keep one simple color. In-case you were planning to scatter everything around the page, designing the new modules and features to fit inside the box module would be a good idea.

You were using Apple as an example you might as well take a little more flavor from the Apple interface. It's very sleek, beautiful and clean. But this is an AMV Site, so a little colors won't hurt. Maybe when the mouse highlights a link in the sidebar (I assume it's a side bar) you can animate it to jitter a little and the color changes; something creative and unique to an amv site.

I also believe you will be keeping the random Banner feature correct?
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Re: [beta.a-m-v.org] Hey, we're semi-official

Postby Kaream » Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:14 am

If you do plan on keeping the 2 module color palettes than a ditto of Apple's color palettes would be a nice idea. Those two colors compliment each other very well, the one's you've chosen feel odd
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Re: [beta.a-m-v.org] Hey, we're semi-official

Postby Nya-chan Production » Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:18 pm

Kaream wrote:I also believe you will be keeping the random Banner feature correct?

No, he won't, I can inform you on that. I've already asked, and it was explained to me that this design is about pure effectivity and the banner is useless clutter. Or something along the way.
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Re: [beta.a-m-v.org] Hey, we're semi-official

Postby Pwolf » Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:28 pm

Nya-chan Production wrote:
Kaream wrote:I also believe you will be keeping the random Banner feature correct?

No, he won't, I can inform you on that. I've already asked, and it was explained to me that this design is about pure effectivity and the banner is useless clutter. Or something along the way.


How about instead of bitching all the time you come up with an idea that could incorporate random banners and still keep good effective use of the site?
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Re: [beta.a-m-v.org] Hey, we're semi-official

Postby Pwolf » Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:31 pm

Kaream wrote:I also believe you will be keeping the random Banner feature correct?


The banner feature in it's current state, probably not but using the new banner/video system David has in his version of the site could be used for other content other than just a new video. I have an idea how to make it work and will do some mock ups when I get back from work.
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Re: [beta.a-m-v.org] Hey, we're semi-official

Postby CodeZTM » Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:53 pm

Pwolf wrote:
Nya-chan Production wrote:
Kaream wrote:I also believe you will be keeping the random Banner feature correct?

No, he won't, I can inform you on that. I've already asked, and it was explained to me that this design is about pure effectivity and the banner is useless clutter. Or something along the way.


How about instead of bitching all the time you come up with an idea that could incorporate random banners and still keep good effective use of the site?


I'm sure Nya-Chan is feeling the same frustration that many of us are feeling at the moment. Lack of coding skills means that unless IFFTU (or one of the two/three other people on the project that knows coding) codes a particular feature that we currently use, and if administration clears the final website without it, we're going to lose a feature that we love utilizing. I'm feeling the same way with the opinion system and the current design philosophy, and I quite literally feel rather helpless about it.

Though I realize that this isn't the final state, and I'm patiently waiting before I start critiquing the entire project.
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Re: [beta.a-m-v.org] Hey, we're semi-official

Postby Pwolf » Wed Aug 08, 2012 4:15 pm

OK then, answer this question:

Would you rather nothing change at all or have someone working on a new site that may or may not have a feature you like? Point being, the "majority" of the people on this site want something new. Now that something new is in the works, you're frustrated you wont get what you want. Make up your mind. There's no way we can make everyone happy. The best approach is to do what you think will be best and let the people decide if it actually works. Considering there's nothing to really test at the moment, no one knows for sure if it will work.

An opinion system is a tough thing to get right. The current system isn't good but its not a problem that needs to be addressed right away. If you want to help, research and discuss with people how to tackle the problem and present David with your findings. He may actually use it. This requires absolutely no programming skills. No matter what website we end up with, this is something that would change either way.

The opinion system aside, think of ways, using David's design, to implement what you want. You're (not you specifically but in general) not helping anyone by bitching and whining about every little thing and making wild assumptions.

Anyway, stop being frustrated about what you don't see and either 1) talk to David and understand he's viewpoints about why he's doing what he's doing or 2) let him do his thing and see what the end product is.
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Re: [beta.a-m-v.org] Hey, we're semi-official

Postby BasharOfTheAges » Wed Aug 08, 2012 4:39 pm

Consider tone in general. It seems like anyone posting feedback in the feedback thread is being told to STFU by the tone of the posts. Several people that just responded had to be coaxed into it and several more are too afraid to post now because they'll just get their heads bitten off.

I get this nagging feeling this is all just a set-up for us to collectively say "alright we give up, what we have now isn't really that bad."
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Re: [beta.a-m-v.org] Hey, we're semi-official

Postby Pwolf » Wed Aug 08, 2012 4:54 pm

The only person being told to STFU, essentially, is Nya. David has responded to every comment with reasonable information that backs up his decisions. Just because he doesn't immediately agree with you doesn't mean you should shut up and go away. On the other side of the coin, just because you have an idea doesn't mean he has to like it either. "If you don't like it then fork the code" is a reasonable response to someone who doesn't like his ideas or wants to see something different.
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Re: [beta.a-m-v.org] Hey, we're semi-official

Postby Taite » Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:10 pm

I've taken two years of web-based/website design classes so my feedback may not be as helpful as someone who's taken more/has more experience.
However, in my experience, you figure out the structure of a website, usually by mapping, first. This involves writing out what links will go on the navigation on every page, other links and pages under those links, etc. Then you go on to design the structure of the pages, i.e., laying out where the navigation goes on a page, search bar, columns on the page, location of content, banner, etc.

Continuing to my point, you do that first, then you get to the aesthetics of the page. So what I don't understand is why people are complaining about what colors there should or shouldn't be or what the banner is going to look like or blah and blah when the basic structure of the beta isn't even figured out yet. In my opinion, though there is no one right way to go about making a site, I think it's more important that we or the person creating this has a set layout of the page, what content will be included, where it's going to go, what features to get rid of, etc, BEFORE the talk of stupid colors and what the site is going to look like. :roll:

Right now, the beta is hardly even a shell. At the very least, the navigation should be figured out. What's going to be included needs to be figured out. If we're re-designing the org, then we're redesigning the layout of the content in addition to the aesthetic design. However, lesser experienced people, no offense, are going to focus on what it looks like, rather than the layout. So I think this whole feedback thread is useless. Bickering about aesthetics is not nearly as important as how the hell you're going to navigate the site. Would you rather somebody come here and say "oh the home page is rather cold, this isn't like amvs at all" (which doesn't happen) or come here and say "WTF is happening, where do I go, how do I sign up, where's the forum?" :?

I don't know, maybe that's just me. Maybe I'm a bit late and that's all figured out. If it is, then I'd rather see that than a color scheme. So getting on, I think this thread is useless. None of what anyone brought up hardly matters. Whether or not a feature is going to be on the new site or not, like what was mentioned pages ago, does matter. Not colors. Not even what the featured videos are going to look like, not yet.

Imo, it's much too early for a feedback thread. I'm glad progress is being made, it looks like, but I'd rather the person making it focus on getting advice from individuals with more experience who understand how to build a site from the bottom up. However, this is just my method. The users should have a say in the site of course, but I would never present my client with a site so early on in the stages of production for this very reason.

Just me though. :nose:
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Re: [beta.a-m-v.org] Hey, we're semi-official

Postby Radical_Yue » Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:13 pm

I wonder if anyone who is bitching about the design realizes that this isn't even in a rough draft stage yet and only the basic functionality is really being ironed out right now...

It's like someone sending a 5 minute beta with 10 seconds done and 4:50 seconds of black space, then people bitching about the black space. The editor could withhold any progress whatsoever and leave everyone in the dark, then say "fuck you, it's done" but instead they're trying to keep people updated every step of the way.

I also wonder if anyone realizes that this single person has gotten more work done on the redesign in the past couple months than our entire team of admins have in the past 3+ years. But then again, not many people would know that considering that everything was being hid behind "it's happening behind closed doors" or whatever bullshit excuse was being used.

I'd prefer to continue the prioritization of "make shit work" over "make shit bootyful!!!11!!"

But then again, that's just me.


Also, thank you David. Thank you for doing something while others did nothing. But then again, if they would've known that attempting to help in any way would create this kind of bitch-fest, I can't really blame them for not doing shit in the first place.

Edit: Fuck yes, Taite. Fuck YES.
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Re: [beta.a-m-v.org] Hey, we're semi-official

Postby Pwolf » Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:19 pm

Taite: Are you going to NDK? Can I buy you a drink?
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