Phantasmagoriat wrote:
Yet, the fact that you found it to be good despite thinking it was a bad video Surprises you does it not?
But I didn't find the video to be good, just enjoyable. Perhaps, yes that surprised me but I wouldn't consider the video good still.
Phantasmagoriat wrote:I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. My belief is that Emotions *should* be used as a Subjective measure of when a video is good. Objective measures are just stale, and emotionally devoid; which I think are terrible measures of what makes a video good.
I'm thinking this might be the root of the issue. "Enjoyable" and "good" are two very different things in my mind. "Enjoyment" is an emotion that's expressed through stimulus (in this case watching an AMV). "Good" is a measurement of it's characteristics... all of it's characteristics, whither that's the editing and flow of the video, the video/audio quality, or how much you enjoyed the video. IMO, when saying something is "good" it has to be measured against a standard (this can be anything). When saying something is enjoyable, the only standard is whither or not it sparked an enjoyable emotional response. While I believe enjoyment and emotion should most definitely also be considered when measuring how good a video is, using it at the only true way to determine how good a video might be is... wrong?
Someone mentioned movies earlier. There are movies out there that are widely considered terrible films, but are loved and enjoyed because of their flaws. These films aren't "good" compared to the standards that have been put in place in our society but they are still enjoyed and loved despite that. And we all acknowledge them as being bad films.
Pwolf wrote:I'm thinking this might be the root of the issue. "Enjoyable" and "good" are two very different things in my mind. "Enjoyment" is an emotion that's expressed through stimulus (in this case watching an AMV). "Good" is a measurement of it's characteristics... all of it's characteristics, whither that's the editing and flow of the video, the video/audio quality, or how much you enjoyed the video. IMO, when saying something is "good" it has to be measured against a standard (this can be anything). When saying something is enjoyable, the only standard is whither or not it sparked an enjoyable emotional response. While I believe enjoyment and emotion should most definitely also be considered when measuring how good a video is, using it at the only true way to determine how good a video might be is... wrong?
Aye, therin lies the problem.
My mind sees AMVs on a balance scale of Good and Bad.
If a video is Technically Competent, the AMVs position slides more towards the Good side.
If the video is Enjoyable, it practically tips the whole scale in the positive direction.
Sure they are both separate things, but they both contribute to the overall 'Goodness' of the AMV.
Actually, I kind of see the whole Universe this way.
Phantasmagoriat wrote:True Progress is when we ALL agree upon something, and something changes.
This is what I was arguing with because it's my belief that:
Phantasmagoriat wrote:...progress can only occur through struggle/conflict.
I thought we were on opposite sides, but I guess we're in agreement after all. Like you just said, progress can only occur through conflict. You can't have conflict if everyone agrees. Thus you can't have have progress if everyone agrees. Progress comes from compromise, agreeing to disagree and trading things so that everyone gets a little something, not unilateral agreement. Because if there ever was a unilateral agreement, that would be the end of progress until disagreement rears her ugly head again. That's why the earth was flat for so long.
.-.
But, back to the original question...I don't like the word surprise.
Surprise is a gimmick. It's an eyecatcher, something that makes the vid stand out just long enough to make people watch it. Once they've watched it, they'll forget it unless it has something that appeals to them on a personal level. It's the appeal that makes the video good, not the eyecatching gimmick that caught the person's attention in the first place. People talk about videos with a surprising gimmick the same way they talk about movies with a twist ending. But once you've seen the twist, it's only good for sharing with friends who don't know the secret yet. [I believe this is why Castor's newest and last crossover has such mixed reviews. The gimmick is cool to first-time crossover viewers, but it's the fans to whom it really appeals.]
That's why we give more weight to reviewability than we do to originality. It's only original the first time you see it. If you keep watching it after that, then there must be something more than a surprising twist of originality in there. [If you don't think reviewability should be more important than originality, then that's an entirely different discussion I'd be happy to debate.]
Take Dewelopers as an example. For those who are not mentioned in the vid, it's quite a unique video aimed at the community by a member of the community. It's great fun to show people for the first time. Those who wish they had been listed might continue to watch it, and those who are interested in some of the effects used in it might watch it often enough to emulate it, but the main people who enjoy it are the ones listed, the ones it was made for. They have a personal attachment to it. It appeals to them. It's a well-made video, but without that personal appeal, it's not worth watching more than once for the majority of amv fans.
If we have to single down one thing that a video *must* have in order to be good, then I think it has to be appeal. Surprise wanes and grows old with repeated viewings. If surprise or originality was what mattered, then editors wouldn't be able to consider their own videos good because there is nothing in there to surprise the one who made it. They might be surprised at themselves, but not the video. The video is entirely predictable for the one who made it, and for anyone who watches it over and over. They keep watching because it touches something in them, it appeals to them on a personal level.
The problem with this is that one thing won't appeal to everyone (see all my posts in this thread). So even if we agree to tell others that "appeal" is the thing a video must have to be good, it's not like saying "good capture" or "a gimmick". Anyone can do good capture and put a twist or editing gimmick into their video if we tell them "originality or a surprise" is what they need to do for it to be good. Saying "appeal" is necessary is more like telling people to make fun videos for those who like fun videos. That's a given, a no-brainer, and not very helpful to those who want specifics.
So, while I wouldn't advise telling people that "appeal" is the necessary ingredient, because that's obvious and very vague, I wouldn't tell them that "surprise" is the necessary ingredient, either. Just look at what happened to movies when they all decided a twist ending was necessary - people started expecting the twist and so it was only surprising when they didn't get one.
Another example would be the AMV Hell vids. They're chalked full of surprises, but they're worth rewatching because some of the jokes, the surprises, never get old. They don't get old because they appeal to you on some level, an inside joke that's personally amusing, a song and character matchup that you might have thought of yourself (and thus you're on the same wavelength as the editor who gave it to you), your favorite characters being mocked, your hated characters being trashed, eyecandy that you wish more editors would provide you with (I'm referring to the boob and panty sections, of course), etc etc. The gimmick of making a hell-type vid has gotten old, so the surprise has worn off. But they're still great vids and fun to watch (and make) for those to whom they appeal.
i'm not sure if you understood what he was saying when he meant surprise and that post there was explaining why you didn't like the word surprise, or if you're arguing against what you think surprise HAS to mean, but again, that's not exactly what he's trying to say. And i don't wanna speak for phan, but these are how i see things anyway...
the surprise gives you the emotional appeal, it's what makes you like it, and it's what makes it register as a good video in your mind.why can't surprise be an emotional thing now? i thought that was already established with someone else's response.
nothing's only original the first time you see it, it's only NEW the first time you see it, but it still maintains its originality, even if a million other vids like it come to follow, it may make it seem like its suddenly unoriginal, but it's still just as original as the first time you saw it (seeing as how it was the first) but it's just not NEW anymore.
with my own videos, i'm surprised i could pull off something so AMAZING! good (in my eyes anyway as it reflects my tastes ofc) so i have that surprise and that's what gives my own videos lasting appeal for my own viewings. when a video i do is bad in my opinion, that surprises me because i usually do FANTASTIC! edits and things that i like, so if i mess that up then that's a surprise and i dislike it and so the surprise even gives me a negative emotional reaction.
surprise is why i can love some of my ics almost as much as my best legit videos, because the fact that i only took 2 hours on it adds a mountain of potential for surprise.
a teacher of mine once told me that flaws can be the most endearing parts of someone's art, so i think surprise explains (as has already been said) why something so technically awful can be really enjoyable to some, even highly experienced and educated editors. Because how awful it is and how much your enjoying it are usually conflicting things, so the surprise of having the two emotions simultaneously during one video is a surprise!
twist does not always mean surprise. if you say people were expecting the twist and that's why nobody cared, it's because THEY WERE EXPECTING IT and thus NO SURPRISE FACTOR. Though some people still enjoyed it, most likely people that aren't highly critical about movies and cinema, because they weren't expecting it, they just come along for the ride and play into the movie developers hands and end up enjoying it because they don't know any better. The surprise is still there for them.
Surprise explains why overdone unoriginal BS is really distasteful to those of us to take time to actually learn the hobby and also why those who don't continue to love it, because they don't know any better and they still see it as cool and awesome and new. Yes, new, i've talked with some of them and while they largely believe their genre to be unoriginal in general, they still like to believe they have their own unique styles. they find originality in the tiniest of insignificant things, but they find them and that surprises them so they keep on enjoying them.
again, surprise is not always a conscious "WOAH MAH GAD! didn't see THAT one coming" or "holy shit, are you serious? that vid took a sharp left turn!" phan's already explained as much in like 7 of his posts already, it's a highly subconscious factor that can be induced by originality in ANY DEPARTMENT WHATSOEVER. and originality can also come of making a linkin ball z video that somehow appeals to the org crowd. Nobody is expecting to love it, so when they do, it'll be a surprise, even if it uses much the same formula as ones before it, the originality comes in its excellence as opposed to the slew of shitty linkin ball vids.
it's highly subconscious, so when it happens, depending on how much it hits you whether it be due to how original it was or something that relates to you personally (which would be surprising as well since you most likely wouldn't be expecting it) then you could become emotionally attached to it, and it could give you an emotional response in the future even when you know what'll happen, but the initial surprise created that, it sparked it.
HOLY FUCK! WE ARE TREADING SOME REALLY GREAT TERRITORY HERE!
I'll be the first to admit that I'm not fully happy with the word Surprise either; but thus is the limitation of Language.
You could use the word Appeal to a certain extent, but I think Appeal is more of a subset of Surprise. Sort of like a Hierarchy.
I mean, if it appeals to you, that is a Surprise in and of itself. So, for now, Surprise is what I'm going with, but I fully concede to your gripe with the term, so let me explain further:
Back to 'Surprise'
To overcome the limitation of Language, that is why my original idea says we "Expect to be Surprised" which combines with a different word to make something completely different. The concept is a Paradox in and of itself. (I mean, how can you be surprised if you expect it? Combining the two together, and you get my idea of Surprise. Which is a paradox. However, through paradox, I find you typically get closer to any 'truth' that may exist (if you believe in Truth). Let me explain further:
Surprise is almost completely dependant on Expectations.
Examples:
Twist in Movie (Unexpected) = Surprise
Twist in Movie (Expected) = No Surprise
No Twist in Movie (Unexpected) = Surprise
No Twist in Movie (Expected) = No Surprise
Reviewability/Repetition = Trying to Understand the Surprise on a more in-depth level
Retro = Bringing back the Surprise, something you didn't Expect
I think those are the big ones, but I'll just throw out an open question: Can you come up with any more examples of Surprise? or how Surprise plays a role in the things you enjoy?
(not just in movies/AMVs, but in ANYTHING. It may help if you re-read one of my earlier posts, which I have re-posted below:)
(maybe disregard my views on Universal Truth because not everyone believes in that; after all, I'm just proposing the idea, and sometimes even just the terminology turns people off. When I say Universal Truth, I'm more referring to a set of Realities that fit a particular Grok called "The Universe" [which is our frame-of-reference]). But anyway:
Spoiler :
An Expanded Idea regarding Truth of Entertainment (re-post)
Now, nobody yet has faced my proposed Universal Truth head-on: that a good AMV is one that Surprises you, and I honestly believe that rings true for everyone. If you accept this, than there is the possibility of more Universal Truths as well.
One could take a biological approach and notice how pleasurable things result in the release of chemicals in the brain, which is also present any time you have an Emotional Response, or even a Physical Response to Stimulus. Whether it be the story in a piece of work, where the situation alone is enough to trigger an emotional response; or if the audio/video stimulus is enough to triggers a neural response; you are still somehow "Surprised" by what you are experiencing.
Part of the problem goes back to the Age-Old-Mystery that has eluded mankind for as long as we can remember: "Why do we like music?" Of course, this isn't something that is present in everyone, but we still haven't quite figured it out. Yet, taking my thoughts one step further leads me to believe that good music surprises you in some respects. There are Patterns in the music that we can clearly follow, but when something like a guitar lick or solo, or the melody comes into the picture, it surprises us; and all of the sudden our brains have to try to make sense of it. But once we do make sense of it, we feel pleasure.
The same idea can be extended to narratives or movies, or any situation that has certain assumed Patterns. Perhaps there is a relationship between two people that should progress smoothly as they are lovers. That's the pattern. But, introduce an obstacle, and all of the sudden, the audience is thrown into peril, trying to scramble for ways to overcome the surprise; to make sense of it all. Or think about video games: in the beginning, there is some unaccomplished task, a pattern that is broken somehow by an obstacle, a Surprise; and it is our job to fix it. So, what do we do? We take on the challenge. And we find that we actually like it. So we do it willingly.
I believe the idea of fixing patterns is true of AMVs as well. Once you learn about something like synchronization for instance, you now have a pattern to watch out for, and wish for that pattern to be respected. And when it is respected it makes you happy. But each time a clip makes an attempt to be synchronized, you are momentarily Surprised; and your brain scrambles to make sense of it. And the moment that connection is made, the Universe is restored once again, and it's the best feeling in the world. Same rings true of Story Elements in AMVs-- similar to books, movies and what have you.
This is our Drive to bring Order back to Chaos; to make the world a little more aligned than it started out; to fix things that catch us off guard. Because they Surprised us.
So, is there Truth here? Truth that can extend to all forms of entertainment? Why we enjoy certain things? What makes something Good? What makes anything Good? I'm sure there's probably more to it than I have described so far, but I believe there is Truth somewhere. Something that would Surprise everybody. Something we can all strive for.
And it all starts by identifying what is True for You; and maybe... just maybe... identify Truth for us all.
Another open question: So then, what are Expectations? And who controls them?
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Now, back to 'Progress.' And addressing 'Conflict'
Because Ari, you bring up some very good points!
The thing is we are both wrong. And right. At the same time. (back to how Paradox points to Truth if you believe in that sort of thing)
See. Progress involves cycling through Periods of Stability and Periods of Change. So it involves both.
I'll do my best to describe it in concise terms, but it's always a challenge to describe a Paradox.
Periods of Stability are when we try to understand New things/ideas (the Surprise) on a more in-depth level (because we haven't all figured out the Surprise)
Periods of Change occur when we build up to Surprise, or after we have already figured out the Surprise and find out it can be implemented on a wider scale, which takes time. This also points out why I'm so interested in 'truths' that extend to all (my search for Universal Truth): because once you figure those out, you get into a Period of Change, so that you can get to the next level of Stability.
How Conflict fits into all this is very interesting. Small Conflicts usually indicate you are in a Period of Stability. (ie. "You did something new... but meh... I easily proved you wrong"). Large Conflicts usually indicate a Period of Change. (ie. "I don't believe you no matter what you say... but wait... hold on... you might be on to something..."). Unfortunately Large Conflicts can make people very uncomfortable; so we often stay rooted in Periods of Stability. Nobody likes questioning their Beliefs, but I (ironically) Believe that we need to question our beliefs from time to time in order to discover something new, or to reinforce things that seem to be more Universal. But here's the kicker: BOTH outcomes lead to Surprise! Some sort of deeper understanding of an idea.
Then, once you gain this deeper understanding of the idea, new or old, it can be implemented, so we can move on to something else afterwards; To search for something new/old/different. And this Period of Searching for something new involves bantering ideas back and forth which is just another way of being in a Period of Stability.
[Theoretical] It's like a sine wave, and Surprise is at the top of a larger wave upon which smaller waves ride. ofc, not all waves reoccur at a constant rate, but they always repeat. They always progress. And now I'm getting into Universal Wave Theory, which is something I didn't want to do, but at the same time, I believe everything in this world follows wave patterns if you just look hard enough.
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Terminology Related to Surprise
Alright, we've been throwing around a lot of words to describe what a good AMV is composed of,
so let's re-visit some aspects of the whole 'AMV/Art Experience,' and think about how they relate to Surprise.
Because they all, in a sense surprise you:
Expectations
Twist; Originality; Unoriginality; Unique; Different
Appeal; Review-ability; Repeat; Patterns; Deciphering; Understanding
Enjoyability
Progress; Conflict; Agreement; Disagreement; Compromise
Contrast/Homogeneous
Significant/Insignificant
Flaws;Distractions
Flow/Disturbance
Story
Stimulus; Response; Emotions
Personal
Good/Bad
Positive/Negative Surprise
Retro
Subconscious; Control; Not in Control
(Also gote, I pretty much agree with everything in your post.
Although, try to refrain from saying thing like that last comment (ofc I think we get it's all in good fun)
I think Ari pretty much gets it, it's just a shift of terminology that needs to take place.
In fact a lot of these terms came from both yours and Ari's posts )
Can we come up with more terms related to Surprise? (maybe some AMV terms too)
Does anyone need more clarification on what I mean by Surprise?
My first thoughts would be novelty or uniqueness, but those hold the same "it fades over time" connotation. Though I feel "novelty" is more of an innate quality that's true at t0 and beyond.
Anime Boston Fan Creations Coordinator (2019-2023) Anime Boston Fan Creations Staff (2016-2018) Another Anime Convention AMV Contest Coordinator 2008-2016
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