The Truth about AMVs

General discussion of Anime Music Videos
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Phantasmagoriat
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Re: The Truth about AMVs

Post by Phantasmagoriat » Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:39 pm

qyll wrote:Ken Robinson offered us the definition of creativity as "the process of having original ideas that have value." I think what you're trying to define is value (or if you're Robert Pirsig, "quality").
I think this is very consistent with my idea how "We Expect to be Surprised" because if something surprises us, an original idea must have been presented (at least, according to our original frame-of-reference) and the moment we make sense of it, a perspective shift can occur in our minds, giving rise to value. So I think, there is a possibility we are encircling the same idea.


qyll wrote:To pigeonhole what makes an AMV enjoyable into disparate "truths" would be a blunder. Sure, you can say that a well-made AMV ought to be easy to follow and have proper scene selection, but then these terms already connotate something desirable in the first place, and so, are not useful qualifiers of a good AMV. Even seemingly immutable "truths" such as high video qualify can fall under the mercy of shifting editing fashions. For example, imagine a hypothetical AMV fad where it becomes popular to edit retro style videos in low resolutions and grainy quality. We've see similar trends in other fields of creativity such as painting and literature. In film, Peter Jackson's The Hobbit will be shot in 48 fps as opposed to 24 fps. That's great, right? Yet many filmgoers don't like this because it makes the movie feel more TVish.
This is a very good point. But at the same time, I think it still falls under my idea of predictability/unpredictability, in the sense that we expect something to be a certain way, and when we see that it is not-- then that inconsistency *IS* the surprise. So, I agree with you how pigeon-holing certain AMV qualities can be a bad idea, yet I still think Truth can be found. Although the word "Truth" is an enigma in and of itself.


qyll wrote:In the end, an AMV's (or any piece of art for that matter) enjoyability is in the eye of the beholder. We all perceive the world differently. To attempt to excavate, a priori, these universal truths that everyone can agree upon would be an exercise in futility. The best we can do is by way of induction; see what many people enjoy and take those things as guidelines rather than axioms. In other words, poll.
hmmm... yeah, I think Guidelines is an appropriate word to describe 'Safe Practices' which is what most of the world defaults to, yet I think Truth is what we all strive for. So, is it an exercise in futility? Perhaps. But coat-tailing on what gote said about us all being Human, I believe there has got to be something Universal.


qyll wrote:I will concede two things:

1) The vast majority of AMV editors are amateurs. We have day jobs. Most of us don't have time to edit all day. Furthermore, the community of serious editors is relatively small. There are barriers to entry, and because of that, the vogues of AMV editing change relatively slowly. That means, for now, certain values such as visual quality are, for all intents and purposes, "universal truths".

2) We are remixers. We don't generate our own footage (there are a few exceptions), and we don't make our own music (again, a few exceptions). That means we don't have to worry about things like character design, lighting, animation quality, instrument use, etc. This considerably simplifies the search for "universal truths".
And this is where the line between Truths and Safe-Practices starts to become blurred. Depending on who you are talking to, an AMV has to have certain elements to even call it an AMV; let alone contain True elements to make it a Good AMV. So, I fully accept your notion of using Guidelines, yet, something in me still feels compelled to search for Truth.
------------------------------



And Expanded Idea regarding Truth of Entertainment
Now, nobody yet has faced my proposed Universal Truth head-on: that a good AMV is one that Surprises you, and I honestly believe that rings true for everyone. If you accept this, than there is the possibility of more Universal Truths as well.

One could take a biological approach and notice how pleasurable things result in the release of chemicals in the brain, which is also present any time you have an Emotional Response, or even a Physical Response to Stimulus. Whether it be the story in a piece of work, where the situation alone is enough to trigger an emotional response; or if the audio/video stimulus is enough to triggers a neural response; you are still somehow "Surprised" by what you are experiencing.

Part of the problem goes back to the Age-Old-Mystery that has eluded mankind for as long as we can remember: "Why do we like music?" Of course, this isn't something that is present in everyone, but we still haven't quite figured it out. Yet, taking my thoughts one step further leads me to believe that good music surprises you in some respects. There are Patterns in the music that we can clearly follow, but when something like a guitar lick or solo, or the melody comes into the picture, it surprises us; and all of the sudden our brains have to try to make sense of it. But once we do make sense of it, we feel pleasure.

The same idea can be extended to narratives or movies, or any situation that has certain assumed Patterns. Perhaps there is a relationship between two people that should progress smoothly as they are lovers. That's the pattern. But, introduce an obstacle, and all of the sudden, the audience is thrown into peril, trying to scramble for ways to overcome the surprise; to make sense of it all. Or think about video games: in the beginning, there is some unaccomplished task, a pattern that is broken somehow by an obstacle, a Surprise; and it is our job to fix it. So, what do we do? We take on the challenge. And we find that we actually like it. So we do it willingly.

I believe the idea of fixing patterns is true of AMVs as well. Once you learn about something like synchronization for instance, you now have a pattern to watch out for, and wish for that pattern to be respected. And when it is respected it makes you happy. But each time a clip makes an attempt to be synchronized, you are momentarily Surprised; and your brain scrambles to make sense of it. And the moment that connection is made, the Universe is restored once again, and it's the best feeling in the world. Same rings true of Story Elements in AMVs-- similar to books, movies and what have you.

This is our Drive to bring Order back to Chaos; to make the world a little more aligned than it started out; to fix things that catch us off guard. Because they Surprised us.

So, is there Truth here? Truth that can extend to all forms of entertainment? Why we enjoy certain things? What makes something Good? What makes anything Good? I'm sure there's probably more to it than I have described so far, but I believe there is Truth somewhere. Something that would Surprise everybody. Something we can all strive for.

And it all starts by identifying what is True for You; and maybe... just maybe... identify Truth for us all.
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Re: The Truth about AMVs

Post by Arigatomina » Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:58 pm

Universal Truth: Good, when applied to anything artistic, is a subjective term and always will be.

In math we have correct and proper and true. In all things artistic we have popular opinion determining which stance is true at any given time. That doesn't mean it's actually true. That "truth" may not even remain true for the people who make up that popular opinion because opinions change as quickly as people do.

That most people think certain things make amvs good today is true. You can do polls to determine this. That things we now consider bad were once considered good is also true. But were those things ever actually good or bad? That's a matter of opinion. It depends on who you poll to get that majority opinion. The vid itself has no inherent "true" good or bad because it's nothing without being seen through the eyes of another, be that the viewer or the editor. It's art, music, poetry. We can get together and decide certain things make the work good or bad or astounding or mediocre. That doesn't make our judgement true in anything but a subejctive sense. Why? Because our judgement is our opinion and that will change along with us.

Conclusion: Without someone to watch and assign value to the amv, the amv is neither good nor bad. There can be no "universal" standards by which to judge a vid as good or bad because even the opinions of a single particular viewer change continuously. Since each person's opinions change along with that person, the majority opinions decided by multiple people are even more fluid. The only "truth" is whether or not it is an amv. Even that truth isn't universal because the definition of what makes an amv changes with the hobby itself.

So...no, no universal truths about amvs. Unless you look at the hobby as a whole, in which case I would say it's a universal truth that the hobby will continue to change indefinitely and that the definitions of good and bad will continue to change as the people determining those definitions change.

And, just in case this is another "what makes a good amv in your opinion" thread:

An amv is good if at least one person watches it and says it's good. They don't have to personally enjoy the vid in order to consider it good. Perhaps they define "good" as "well-made" rather than personally enjoyable. Or maybe good just means they liked watching it and look forward to watching it more in the future. In that case, good doesn't necessarily mean well-made at all. Either way, if that one person says the vid is good, then it's a good vid. To that person. If lots of people agree with that viewer and popular opinion says it's a good vid, then it's a good *and* popular vid. Congrats. If no one watches your vid, then it's nothing. Sorry. Try pimping it to people who like the same things you do and then it will be good. Just beware sharing it with people who don't like the things you do, because then it will be a bad vid. And, if it somehow gets watched a lot by a variety of people, it could be an inbetween vid. Those are the worst. Sorry again. Don't let it get to you. Remember, romance novels sell well because they're targeted to readers of romance. Just because those horror movie fans wrinkle their nose at your sappy drama doesn't mean it won't be considered great to others.

If this is a "what things are necessary for a chair to be a good chair" type thread:

All the basics - synch, concept, delivery, capture and sound quality, compression. It's all in the guides. Those aspects are the seat and legs required to make it a chair by today's definition (which is subject to change). Does that mean it will be a good or popular one? That depends on who you're trying to make sit in that thing. Pick your audience well and you're home free. Offer something without a back to people who prefer to recline and you're in trouble. If that's your audience, then fancy it up a little, make it comfortable and appealing. How do you do that? That's a matter of opinion. Some people like cushiony flow that's relaxing and pleasant, they might even want it to have a soothing rocker added on there so they can leave it on loop and rock softly for hours. Others like the bite of effects and jarring cuts to keep them on the edge of that rigid seat. That chair isn't for sitting, it's for bouncing. However you make that chair your own, so long as you have the basics covered at least you know it's a proper chair. If it falls apart the second someone tries to sit on it, then it's a bad chair. It might be a good pile of "found art", though. Always look on the bright side. One man's garbage (or feces on a paper plate) is another man's treasure. Art is great that way.

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Re: The Truth about AMVs

Post by gotegenks » Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:00 am

The surprise factor still evades all of that argument though.
for the hundreds or thousands of years where we know about art, one thing has been certain. New has overtaken the old. That's why styles change, there always needs to be something new, the next step, that's where originality comes into the picture as well. It surprises you and you like it, and then you like stuff that looks like the thing that surprised you, and that's where emulators come into it. It's all about something perceived as new, something original, and that's why style is constantly changing and never stagnant.
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Re: The Truth about AMVs

Post by Phantasmagoriat » Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:13 am

Arigatomina wrote:Universal Truth: Good, when applied to anything artistic, is a subjective term and always will be.

In math we have correct and proper and true. In all things artistic we have popular opinion determining which stance is true at any given time. That doesn't mean it's actually true. That "truth" may not even remain true for the people who make up that popular opinion because opinions change as quickly as people do.

That most people think certain things make amvs good today is true. You can do polls to determine this. That things we now consider bad were once considered good is also true. But were those things ever actually good or bad? That's a matter of opinion. It depends on who you poll to get that majority opinion. The vid itself has no inherent "true" good or bad because it's nothing without being seen through the eyes of another, be that the viewer or the editor. It's art, music, poetry. We can get together and decide certain things make the work good or bad or astounding or mediocre. That doesn't make our judgement true in anything but a subejctive sense. Why? Because our judgement is our opinion and that will change along with us.

Conclusion: Without someone to watch and assign value to the amv, the amv is neither good nor bad. There can be no "universal" standards by which to judge a vid as good or bad because even the opinions of a single particular viewer change continuously. Since each person's opinions change along with that person, the majority opinions decided by multiple people are even more fluid. The only "truth" is whether or not it is an amv. Even that truth isn't universal because the definition of what makes an amv changes with the hobby itself.

So...no, no universal truths about amvs. Unless you look at the hobby as a whole, in which case I would say it's a universal truth that the hobby will continue to change indefinitely and that the definitions of good and bad will continue to change as the people determining those definitions change.

And, just in case this is another "what makes a good amv in your opinion" thread:

An amv is good if at least one person watches it and says it's good. They don't have to personally enjoy the vid in order to consider it good. Perhaps they define "good" as "well-made" rather than personally enjoyable. Or maybe good just means they liked watching it and look forward to watching it more in the future. In that case, good doesn't necessarily mean well-made at all. Either way, if that one person says the vid is good, then it's a good vid. To that person. If lots of people agree with that viewer and popular opinion says it's a good vid, then it's a good *and* popular vid. Congrats. If no one watches your vid, then it's nothing. Sorry. Try pimping it to people who like the same things you do and then it will be good. Just beware sharing it with people who don't like the things you do, because then it will be a bad vid. And, if it somehow gets watched a lot by a variety of people, it could be an inbetween vid. Those are the worst. Sorry again. Don't let it get to you. Remember, romance novels sell well because they're targeted to readers of romance. Just because those horror movie fans wrinkle their nose at your sappy drama doesn't mean it won't be considered great to others.

If this is a "what things are necessary for a chair to be a good chair" type thread:

All the basics - synch, concept, delivery, capture and sound quality, compression. It's all in the guides. Those aspects are the seat and legs required to make it a chair by today's definition (which is subject to change). Does that mean it will be a good or popular one? That depends on who you're trying to make sit in that thing. Pick your audience well and you're home free. Offer something without a back to people who prefer to recline and you're in trouble. If that's your audience, then fancy it up a little, make it comfortable and appealing. How do you do that? That's a matter of opinion. Some people like cushiony flow that's relaxing and pleasant, they might even want it to have a soothing rocker added on there so they can leave it on loop and rock softly for hours. Others like the bite of effects and jarring cuts to keep them on the edge of that rigid seat. That chair isn't for sitting, it's for bouncing. However you make that chair your own, so long as you have the basics covered at least you know it's a proper chair. If it falls apart the second someone tries to sit on it, then it's a bad chair. It might be a good pile of "found art", though. Always look on the bright side. One man's garbage (or feces on a paper plate) is another man's treasure. Art is great that way.
Well that was a depressing fucking read.

It supports the belief that all of Humanity will *never* be able to understand each other.
Do you actually think that? Consider if you truly want to communicate with someone
and get your message across to them, that you can't make a single. fucking. ounce. of difference.

BULLSHIT.

Yes. Some people are stubborn. Some people don't see things the way you see things.
Some people even have their own selfish motives in this world, and may choose to ignore you completely!
And some people are just stupid.

But that doesn't mean you can't connect with them.

You might have to beat your drum a little louder.
Or find an outlet that can be heard above the rush of the crowd.
Or scream at the top of your fucking lungs!

or cry.

or sometimes.

Even make people uncomfortable. And make them stew in their own sweat.

But you CAN make a difference.

Maybe the person you want to talk to speaks a different language, and they don't have the same speech-pattern-sound-recognition-or-background to know exactly what the hell you are talking about; but Does that mean you CAN'T connect with them? CAN'T communicate with them on SOME level? No. If you want to communicate an idea to someone you can. All you have to do is Open up and Try. Sometimes you even have to expose your vulnerabilities. But have you ever tried talking to someone in another language? You really have to open up. And really make an attempt to understand each other. You might not know what the hell is going on the majority of the time; but then something magical happens and you find out how satisfying it is when you finally get your point across. Sure it's frustrating in the beginning, and annoying as fuck; but when you finally connect, it's bloody fantastic! True Communication transcends text, language, file format, audio/visual mediums, social class/structure, and everything.

And art is a form of Communication. So are AMVs.

If you wish to continue believing that art is a stale, unemotional backlog of pieces of shit that can only connect with niche groups of people... go ahead. I'm not stopping you. But if that's the reality you choose to believe in, I would hate to be you.
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Re: The Truth about AMVs

Post by Phantasmagoriat » Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:20 am

Yeah, I thought I should probably add: I'm sorry if I'm coming off as harsh, but --I actually used to think with that same mindset too--
Then I found my Voice, and realized I CAN make a difference. Everyone else can too.

We don't all need to be stuck in our old ways, and reuse old frames of reference. Actually, if I'm not mistaken, I've read that very same analogy of an AMV as a chair in the past, and always thought there was something very off about it... but never said anything...
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Re: The Truth about AMVs

Post by Arigatomina » Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:21 am

Phantasmagoriat wrote:It supports the belief that all of Humanity will *never* be able to understand each other.
I never said anything about not being able to connect or communicate. In fact, I'm saying that everyone is different and understanding that helps you know what to expect from them and how to better communicate with them.

Each person is different. Recognize the differences. Sway the ones who can be swayed, overcome the ones who can be overcome, and accept the ones who can't be moved. The best art in the world will never appeal to everyone. It shouldn't. It's our differences that make us individuals. Art is liberating because no matter what you make, it will appeal to someone. If you're in it for praise, you'll get some no matter what because there is always going to be at least one person just like you who will love it for the same reason you do. If you're in it to convert people, you'll get that, too, because there are always going to be flexible people just waiting to be swayed in one direction or another by a compelling argument (or vid). If you're in it to communicate, you're going to find people who speak your language and they will understand your message - or you'll find people with enough time and interest to learn your language *just* so they can understand your message. No matter what your motivation, you're going to succeed on some level because it's art, and there are no rules with art.

All of that is very positive. The only thing you have to do is accept that people are all different. Trying to push everyone to be the same, for them all to agree on a universal *anything* is counterproductive. That's not going to happen and if it did, there would be nothing to talk about or share because everyone would be doing the same thing and agreeing about it. Art delves into creativity, individuality, and opinion. The whole point is that people are different, their opinions will always differ enough to strike up debates on any single art work or genre. That's a good thing, a positive thing, because without that continual arguing there can be no growth. This hobby depends on the constant disagreement from one viewer or editor to another as to what makes a vid good or bad. If we all agreed on what makes something good, then that would be the only thing made and once every possible combination has been done in that "good" style there would be no more vids. Now that's depressing.

You said I implied art was stagnant. I have no idea where you got that, but it's just the opposite. I'm saying that art is anything and everything for anyone and everyone. It can't be controlled or limited by universal truths and that's why it will continue for as long as the human race does. It's only when you seek to put everything and into little boxes of universal "good" and "bad" that art can grow stagnant. When you do that, you shut down the debate, the dialogue, and it's that very conflict that keeps people motivated to make their own unique mark on the world.

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Re: The Truth about AMVs

Post by Phantasmagoriat » Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:03 am

Alright. That viewpoint is very understandable.
I mean, when you have various competing viewpoints;
many of which are in disagreement with each other,
a lot of pretty neat stuff happens, and it can be exciting. I get that.

Now see my viewpoint: All of that may LOOK like progress, but it's not.
It gives the false illusion that something is happening.
But really, when you only have disagreement,
--THAT is when everything becomes stagnant--
THERE. IS. NO. REAL. PROGRESS. Just. Look. at. war...

For Real Progress to occur, *everyone* needs to come to an agreement.
And the only way everyone can come to an agreement,
is if Truth is revealed. Truth that everyone can see. Truth that speaks to ALL.
----------------


So, if we want AMVs (or anything) to progress, we DO need to identify Truths that speak to ALL viewers.

And STOP saying "BAWWWWW EVERYONE IS DIFFERENT!!!!!!" boo hoo.

We are ALL Human after all.
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Re: The Truth about AMVs

Post by Arigatomina » Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:55 am

Phantasmagoriat wrote:And STOP saying "BAWWWWW EVERYONE IS DIFFERENT!!!!!!" boo hoo.
You don't have to bold things as if you're screaming in my face. I hear you just fine. In fact, it would be easier to read your posts if you'd just type normally and use paragraphs.

It's clear that we disagree about what progress is. In my opinion, the org has gone stagnant because too many people agreed on what good amvs were. The forum community agreed so strongly that they drove away everyone who disagreed. You don't have to preach unity and similarity in order to unite the org. The majority of people still here have agreed on what good and bad is for years. That's why they're still here. That's why the forum hasn't grown the way the rest of the net has. The org has a narrow view of amvs that limits what "good" editors make and causes not-so-good editors to make nothing at all, or to share it on the tube rather than bringing it here where it's not welcome. If that's the org you dream of, where everyone is united in marching to a single idea of what is good, then you don't have to try so hard. We're already there. Yes, there are still some stubborn people insisting that we're all different (and some of us celebrate that fact rather than sobbing about it), but we're few and far between. Don't waste your time trying to convert us into happy head-nodding drones. It's not going to happen. If we could be incorporated into the org collective it would have happened a long time ago.

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Re: The Truth about AMVs

Post by Pwolf » Wed Jul 04, 2012 5:10 am

I think you're both hitting notes that are a little off base. I think Ari is right that differing opinions can produce positive results and I completely disagree that the only way to have "real" progress is if everyone agrees. In the AMV world, progress is hard to measure. There's only so much you can do. Outside the AMV world we see progress happening every day. Here in the United States the Supreme Court just upheld Obama's health care law. We may not all agree on it but it's still progress. Progress doesn't always point in the direction you want it to. And because of that, progress in of itself is also very much dependent on the perspective and opinions of the people. Using Obamacare as an example again, many people see it as progress towards better healthcare for our country while other see it as a downfall towards more debt and taxes.

That said, I think Ari's comments on how everyone on the org agrees is completely wrong. We have never agreed on anything. Look at all the drama that comes out of the VCAs and amv contests every year. If anything THAT is what's been driving people away. We argue so much on what is good or bad all the time. New people don't come here because our website sucks or they don't like how direct and honest we are. The org is very much a no-nonsense community. If you don't want to hear an honest opinion, go to Youtube. Is that bad? No. Does that prevent progress? I don't think so. I believe it makes us try different things.

I personally believe there cannot be an absolute truth across the board. It will never happen. You cannot expect everyone to agree on it. However, that doesn't mean it can't be done on a smaller scale. Look at AMV contests. They all have their own set of standards and "truths". Almost every contest at a con has technical specifications that must be followed and the judging staff has rules they must follow to determine what's a good video. These are truths. These are the things that will determine if your video makes it into the contest or not. Doesn't matter if the video is considered good or bad by John Doe. Perfect example, Castor Troy's Naruto Ball Z Shipuden video cleaned out Anime Expo's contest this past weekend. I know of at least 3 people who thought the video was terrible. There is no way these people would ever agree on a set of standards, they would still believe the video was terrible. Even if everyone were to agree on a set of standards, there would still be varying opinions within the standard.

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Re: The Truth about AMVs

Post by Pwolf » Wed Jul 04, 2012 5:26 am

And on the subject of "progress" and AMVs... what would be considered "progress" to begin with?

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