I would like to make a case for Avatar to be included

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I would like to make a case for Avatar to be included

Postby TheDevian » Sat Mar 03, 2012 2:21 am

I know many of you will instantly go off and get upset by the mere mention of this, but I ask you 'What constitutes "Anime" as far as the site is concerned?'

Most would say "It must be made in Japan" and generally I would agree, but what about Korea? or Taiwan? Listed here is an animated cartoon made in Korea called 'Aachi & Ssipak' (and I am sure there are probably others as well), it has been used in 2 videos here 'by itself', with no "anime" listed with it. Nothing to do with Japan. If this is "close enough" by the standards here then I offer this, Avatar had most of it's animation done in a studio in South Korea as well, and on top of that, many of the names in the credits are also Japanese. Making it closer to 'Anime' than 'Aachi & Ssipak' is.

Unlike the other cartoons that get associated with it, like Teen Titans for example, that look like American animation done with an SD body type and a round head, Avatar actually captures the style and feel of a real anime. Other than having been in English first, it is more 'Anime' than any other attempt made in the west, because mostly it was just the voice acting that was done here, the rest was done in the east.

So if other Asian animation is close enough to be counted here, then I contend that Avatar is also very Asian.

I have been contemplating making a video for this show, but if Youtube is my only real option to display it, I am not sure I want to go through the trouble of making one. I understand which ever way the debate goes, but I had to make a case for one of my favorite shows, using calm logic and reasoning, backed by facts. (I know, that makes me a bad American, but I can't help it, that is how I was raised ;})

And Thank You to anyone who read through this and thought about it before just instantly freaking out and yelling at me. ;}
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Re: I would like to make a case for Avatar to be included

Postby Pwolf » Sat Mar 03, 2012 2:35 am

I think the key difference is that Aachi & Ssipak was produced and made in Korea vs Avatar being an American made series but the animation was done in Asia. If we want to include anything animated in Asia, we'd have to include The Simpsons.

The issue of wither or not it should be included aside, why should not being able to host it here make you not want to make the video? If you enjoy the show that much, why force yourself against making the video because you can't host it here?
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I would like to make a case for Avatar to be included

Postby TEKnician » Sat Mar 03, 2012 3:41 am

Anime is a Japanese word.

That's why.
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Re: I would like to make a case for Avatar to be included

Postby TheDevian » Sat Mar 03, 2012 5:08 am

right, my point was that it is closer to being Japanese with that many Japanese people working on it (watch the credits), than Aachi & Ssipak was being entirely Korean. The simpsons may be done in Korea or whatever too, but it is not done like an Anime, like Avatar is, nor are that many of the people involved Japanese.

And TEKnician, Aachi & Ssipak, is entirely Korean, and it is allowed, but it is also not Anime, as well as many others.

so then by that train of thought, anything in an Asian language is ok, but not if it is in English or another western language.

But then again, Code Lyoco is French, but that one is OK too here (12 with it in them, half are only that), that one too has less than nothing to do with Japan, so I guess it just has to be non-english to count...? Sounds to me like this is just a big anti-english bias. It is starting to look like almost any non-American cartoon is ok, the more I look into this. I say Avatar is far closer to anime than that as well.

I am just trying to figure out the rules here, because this kind of inconsistency makes it rather confusing. If it were only things from Japan, then that would be easy to figure out, but that is obviously not the case.
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Re: I would like to make a case for Avatar to be included

Postby TheDevian » Sat Mar 03, 2012 5:13 am

oh, as for being less inclined to make it, if almost no one will see it, while I might enjoy making it, it would feel like a waste of time. (sorry can't figure out how to edit the last post to add this part, sorry about the double), and with the changes at YouTube I am thinking about giving up there soon, so without here I am out of places to share it, other than about 1 friend irl who also likes them. and while I mostly make them for myself and my practice and entertainment value, I would rather spend my time making something others can enjoy as well. (I'm a giver, lol)
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Re: I would like to make a case for Avatar to be included

Postby JaddziaDax » Sat Mar 03, 2012 5:31 am

Even if it's not allowed in the database, you can still post an announcement in the GENERAL DISCUSSION like I did with my video titled "Starlight".
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Re: I would like to make a case for Avatar to be included

Postby TheDevian » Sat Mar 03, 2012 6:24 am

Point, you are right, the Code Lyoko ones are indirect (I didn't see that the first time, just that they were in the list), but that still leaves the Aachi & Ssipak one that is direct. And the Code Lyoko ones are still in the DB, just not stored on the server, 6 are without a real anime mixed in. A&S I kind of get, but the french one isn't even close. To me, Avatar is as close to anime as you can get that isn't from Japan/in Japanese.

...but to post an indirect or anything else would still require a place to do so, and i don't have that (except for you tube for a bit longer), and from my experience here, the indirect ones are mostly as good as none, so I don't follow them any more. Think only one I have tried was not a dead link. I announced one video here, but I don't normally bother, feels like i am asking for attention, lol.
But whether I make one or not wasn't really the point, I was mostly hoping to figure out why certain exceptions are made, and why this isn't one of them. I forget I am not watching a dub anime all the time watching it, if I didn't know better I might not be able to tell the difference. Every so often I keep looking for the language options to see what honorific they would have used there (that doesn't exist). They even use Kanji for all written material in the world. If you haven't seen it I dare you to watch it and tell the dif between that and a decent dub. Other than a few minor points it's one of the best forgeries ever. ;} But then I admit, I am bias, I just love the show. On the other hand, I don't like much that isn't anime (or comic books). So that that for what it's worth (very little).
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Re: I would like to make a case for Avatar to be included

Postby Prodigi » Sat Mar 03, 2012 6:53 am

As far as I recall Aachi and Ssipak is not allowed (on it's own). It is, however, in the catalogue because there have been a few MEPs and multi-source videos which have used Aachi and Ssipak as one of the sources (but less than a 50% ratio, as the rules dictate).
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Re: I would like to make a case for Avatar to be included

Postby Ileia » Sat Mar 03, 2012 7:44 am

It's not exceptions being made, it's videos being sneaked by. You're not supposed to, but with the current system, you can still put them in the catalog, use indirect or direct links (like this Avatar video for instance: http://www.animemusicvideos.org/members ... p?v=184672 ) but you can't upload them to the local server.

I searched and didn't see any of the videos using only Aachi & Ssipak that had a local download. Were any of the other sources you mentioned available on local? If they were, did they have an anime source listed along with the "non-anime" source?
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Re: I would like to make a case for Avatar to be included

Postby TheDevian » Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:08 am

(if someone didn't figure it out, I meant "Take that for what it's worth", but no edits allowed)

well there are 3 Aachi & Ssipak listed that are on their own (with the & not 'and' or at least that was the search i used), 2 hosted, one indirect, and 6 for that Code Lyoko that are on their own, all either indirect or none, but listed.

I was pretty surprised to find two such examples in just a few min of searching though, so I thought that maybe if there were 'approved exceptions' like that (and I figured there would have to be to see so many so easily, but maybe I just 'got lucky'), then if the right case were to be made, then maybe I could help get that list expanded a hair further (options are a good thing after all), and here we are.
If they are listed improperly then I accept that as a consistent enforcing of the "definition", and they just fell through the cracks (though it would be sad to see them have to be removed). But if they are on the 'approved' list then I call inconsistencies on that. If there are any non-anime that get approved then I think this should be one of them. Avatar is about as close as you can get and it not be from Japan.

Thanks again to everyone who has replied.
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Re: I would like to make a case for Avatar to be included

Postby TheDevian » Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:14 am

I was wrong, sorry was 2 indirects and a direct. sorry the subtle nuances of some of this is new to me.
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Re: I would like to make a case for Avatar to be included

Postby mirkosp » Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:31 am

But the rule IS only Japanese sources.
Aachi & Ssipak was likely erroneously confirmed because it is listed on anidb (edit: see below, it wasn't, in fact all videos were indirect/direct, no local). However, if you try to search avatar on anidb, well, this is the page that turns out. You can search for avatar on anidb for yourself. Thought I'd point this out 'cause it's funny. :P
Anyway, yes, Aachi & Ssipak does not count as anime for the org. I only had seen it listed in meps/collabs along with other sources, hence why I never realized it was listed as anime (I have not checked yet, so it might not be either way). Will duly fix the entries, thanks for the report.
And sorry, but no Avatar for you as it is not Japanese, that's just how things work here.

EDIT: Actually, Aachi & Ssipak was already listed as NOT anime. It was just people making entries. Will just have to delete the entries.
EDIT2: All Avatar only and Aachi & Ssipak only entries deleted from the catalog.
EDIT3: Code Lyoko vids dealt with as well. If you have any other sources/videos to report, please do so.
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Re: I would like to make a case for Avatar to be included

Postby zibbazabba905 » Sat Mar 03, 2012 12:34 pm

I think it was just one of those things that was decided along time ago when it came up...it could even have been a ...haha...legality issue or something like that
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Re: I would like to make a case for Avatar to be included

Postby TEKnician » Sat Mar 03, 2012 3:07 pm

I rest my case... :bear:
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Re: I would like to make a case for Avatar to be included

Postby CodeZTM » Sat Mar 03, 2012 3:14 pm

I still like the original idea of having a liveaction/non-anime subforum in general discussion that was talked about a while back.
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