Disclaimer: These interviews are not associated with a-m-v.org, and do not reflect the opinions of its administration.
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Description
Welcome to the Lip Flapper! Each week, we delve deep into the community and get a good look into both individual members as well as group discussions on various issues that surround our hobby.
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This Week in "The Lip Flapper"
I compiled a squad of editors to take the side of YouTube in a reply to last week's YouTube panel.
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The Panel
CodeZTM wrote:What would you find to be the best qualities of YouTube when compared to a-m-v.org? Are there things that YouTube does that is more preferred than what a-m-v.org does?
Hagaren Viper wrote:I think Youtube makes it easier to find videos you havent seen before. For example, after watching an amv on youtube a list of 'related' vids based on keywords pops up, which varies a little between newer and older vids. So it's pretty easy to go on a 'Wiki Walk' [Youtube walk?] of sorts, watching one related vid after the other. a-m-v.org doesn't *quite* have an equivalent to this. The closest I feel we have to finding random new videos is the AMV Spotlight on the main page, but even so you're basically relying on the title and editor name to draw you in, because both are accompanied by a big black screen where the video is. Of course, as the name implies it only lists the highest rated videos, so you'll end up seeing the same 10 titles over and over anyway. There's also the 'New Vid on the Block', but that has even less draw since you're relying on nothing but a name to hook you.
To put it this way...what if the difference between watching an AMV titled 'Hit Me Baby, One More Time' is seeing the icon Jesse hitting James from Pokemon or not?
Taite wrote: Youtube's ease of access and structure definitely trump over the org.
The simplicity of the upload system makes it a lot easier to get your videos out there, and automatically you have a little "thread" for your video without having to go out and create it. The aesthetics of the site, but mainly these little "threads", are also very appealing. It's simple to use, but also contains many graphics, with the like buttons, recommended videos, view count, etc., all available in one easy place.
The video player, though while it apparently decreases audio quality, is advanced enough to allow you to view the video in the quality in which it was uploaded (360/480/720p). Though perhaps not as crisp as the original file's quality, it does a great job at maintaining most of it.
Youtube's "subscribe" feature is nice, allowing you to subscribe to fellow editors and see their videos within minutes that they are uploaded on your homepage, rather than waiting for that editor to make a thread for it, if they even do. In which case, you'll likely never hear of it. I believe the org has a similar feature to the "subscribe" options on youtube, but I'm unaware of how it works.
The comments system makes it easy to acknowledge to an editor that you've seen their video, even if you don't want to give them criticism. I typically leave criticism on every video I watch on youtube, but that doesn't mean anyone else should expect it. The people on youtube are a different topic.
If you expect and desire criticism though, then you can come to the org, and if people have a strong enough opinion about your video they'll share it. I like criticism and hope people will take the time to leave me some on the org, as I'm always looking to improve my videos to better entertain people. However, I typically like to just drop off videos and leave them there so people can enjoy them, and youtube makes it easy. The comments system is nice because people are more likely to leave a little note acknowledging if they liked it or not, working the same as the QC system. Unless they are a troll, people will typically tell you why they didn't like it as well.It wouldn't better the community, no. The community, whose voice is primarily composed of more veteran editors, seem to enjoy the system it has going. There are no flaws in the system, but as one person put it, making it more friendly is like "lazifying" it. If people aren't willing to learn the system, then they should just go away as far as most people are concerned.So do you think if the org had a more user friendly system that it would garner more attention and possibly better the community?
If you did "lazify" it, then yes, the org would garner more attention. However, that's not what the community as a majority wants. People, including myself, aren't too concerned about the popularity of the org so much. People want to maintain the close-knit community instead of making it another youtube. If we were to follow youtube's format, the org wouldn't be unique anymore and most people would leave. So as far as bettering the org goes, no, it probably wouldn't.
I believe that the org is so small that they don't even need to implement a feature like this. Youtube is so large, and if you're one of those people that are subscribed to a hundred people, the subscribe feature becomes helpful, since you don't have to check a hundred profiles every week or however often. On the org, you only need to check the announcements forum once a week -- there are such a small amount of editors posting threads in this forum on the org that a lot of it lingers on the first page for awhile.Do you believe that this would further hurt how little commentary that the announcements forums get?
However, I believe a lot of editors on the org have a built in subscribe feature already in their minds haha. They might watch other videos, but typically people tend to only comment on videos from editors that they know, and that's a huge problem on the org. A few editors like yourself comment on a variety of editor's videos though, which makes me excited to see and motivates me to do more of it as well, but I occasionally see a video with no responses fade into pages 2, 3, and so on.
On the first video I announced on the org, I got 2 pages of comments, though half were likely mine, and I was thrilled! This seems to have changed though. If you want people to come back to the org, then you need to comment on their threads. However, like I mentioned earlier, people seem to be more about preserving the current community, which is where these built-in subscribe buttons come into play. People have their own reasons for not commenting, so I'm not blaming anyone for anything, but the lack of comments on new editor's videos is a fact.
Implementing a feature like a subscribe button, if it doesn't exist already here, wouldn't do harm to the lack of comments in the announcement forum. The inactivity would likely just stay the same.
gote wrote:YouTube is a completely viable place to make friends and be in a community. In fact, I'd say it's a much better place to make friends and be in a community. The type of people you have there are just more talkative, and YouTube sends you comments and replies you get to an inbox so it's faster and easier to keep track of things.
There are many different types of communities than on the Org. Game Music Videos, Live Action Movie editing, TV show editing, action editing, just plain Kingdom Hearts videos (where I came from), romance, and probably much more. So you have your pick of any style of editing with any source you want with an Org sized community behind it to make friends, learn, and grow as an editor.
Most of the communities there are hellbent on being friendly and nice and to just love everything (annoying, I know). That's the main issue the Org has with YouTube editors. YouTube editors don't have any real taste in videos and nobody's critical about anything anyone uploads, but it's not so bad when you're first starting out or even when you're semi-experienced and you just need some friendly compliments and to be told you're awesome.
When I was heavily involved the Kingdom Hearts editing community I was an outcast because I criticized videos. I'm not gonna lie though, I was probably pretty rude about it, and everyone hated it. I hated people that hated my criticisms. I hated that nobody cared enough to listen to what was wrong with them. I believed that a negative comment was 10x more valuable than a good comment. I hated the way things were on others' videos, but on my videos I couldn't get enough of the good comments! Those customs and standards of friendship and love really promote good feelings about editing and I really admire that now.
Without friends, who the heck would do this? I can't imagine going past Windows Movie Maker KH 3hr-worktime videos if there weren't people to interact with and comment on my videos. And luckily for me, i started with KH (thanks to kh-vids.net), and I got the super friendly treatment of fellow KH editors to motivate me and inspire me. I don't know if the Org, as it is now, was my sole source of AMV stuff that i would have kept making videos. There's just not enough activity for there to be anybody here who would have liked what i spit out of windows movie maker. Those videos were HORRIBLE.
But It's not those loving communities that people think of when they think "typical YouTube." When you think typical YouTube, what comes to your mind? LINKIN. BALL. Z. Action editors. Naruto vs Sasuke vs Gaara vs Luffy vs Goku vs Radial Blurs and Flash and punching scenes. That community, that ONE SINGLE FUCKING community, is the most detestable group of editors I know of. A circle of uneducated bullies is what they are. If your edits aren't up to snuff. If the blurs flash and scene choice aren't as good as the standard, they actually leave negative comments. That may sound like a step in the right direction for YouTube but the negative comments are always unintelligible and usually even wrong. But if your edits are good, if they're decently smooth and they use cool lookin' scenes from popular shonen anime, then you're cool! You get praises, and random people love your stuff, and you keep putting out those 10-20 seconds of the same shit over and over.
This community is so deluded in their knowledge of AMV editing that they think they have any originality whatsoever. This isn't every single action editor or anything. There are a few gems that finish videos and that do have some original style. The only one off the top of my head is an editor named DW but he's gone now so i have no idea if there's any hope left for this Phadeforsaken community. The majority of them upload 10-20 seconds on average every other day, sometimes less. Always the same shit. This community has the balls to consistently and shamelessly use the Naruto vs Sasuke fight in a video, over and over again.
I saw a complaint on a video that really made me sick and it'll probably stick with me for as long as I edit. A guy accused the editor of ripping off another editor. This was a short meaningless bleach action beta that I've seen a million times before, and I'm sure the accuser has done it himself at least 5 times. The comment said "this is such a rip. You used the exact same scenes as DW just rearranged." I cannot wrap my head around that ignorant comment as hard as I try. I just can't begin to understand the level of stupidity it takes for someone to really be that shamelessly hypocritical. It's none of my concern how or what an editor wishes to edit, but it maddens me to no end when they fight like children based on flawed editing principles and theory and incorrect definitions of things like "originality." Comments like this only serve to promote the same generic type of editing that gets praised. The praise leads to more of those videos being created, videos that are the antithesis of what this site tries to promote. Those videos pervade all of YouTube and soil its reputation which is what constantly distances the Org from YouTube.
There's two sides to the linkin ball z coin, though. Those are just the editors that do this stuff regularly. Then you have the random editors that paste 3 minutes of bleach to three days grace in WMM and upload it. Those aren't even an issue though. It's rare that those videos get enough comments to make them really popular and make them content with their lame videos. They might not get more original as they continue editing, but they certainly try harder to get more views and learn mechanics, so it's not all bad.
The way that YouTube praises random new editors in small but noticeable quantity without negativity is a phenomenal way to bring in new editors by the truckload. Not all of these editors end up becoming anything worth mentioning anywhere, but for every hundred or thousand if there's one gem that would have never been introduced if not for some shitty bleach video, then I am thankful for the trend that YouTube, Windows Movie Maker, Japan, and piracy have all come together to create. And the growth is exponential too, so the rest of those 999 schmucks that never amount to anything in editing still may inspire 999 more schmucks and one gem, and that gem would have never come to be a gem without the schmucks and those schmucks would have never come to be schmucks without the schmucks before them.
I value YouTube's trends and methods and communities. Even the action editing community serves the purpose of motivating themselves. Those tough guy attitudes and their rivalries suit them and their needs and motivate them create smoother and more action packed bleach videos to every popular rock song available, and they help to bring in new talent, just like the schmucks before the schmucks before them. I'll never stop uploading my videos to YouTube for as long as it's allowed. I love the Org much more but because of the size of YouTube's population and the ever increasing rate of growth (despite all of the legal ramifications associated with the hobby), I would have to choose YouTube as a website over the Org any day, that is, if the Org continues to stay the same.
Chez wrote:Youtube did a few things faster then the org. The instant streaming allowed for quick content for the viewers and no wait time from downloading so your comments where usually pretty fast. It also had more impact on the unknown world. Sure there are a few AMV specific sites, but the average person may never click on this site unlike youtube and its many videos about kittens. Though I really enjoy the orgs set up, yes it is more of a learning curve but because of that you actually learn a bit. Just sometimes I would rather spend less time trying to get the right file type and more time getting onto the next video.
Well most of the average youtube users know that you just upload and go. Really easy and simple its just about 2 clicks and you are done, but for the org you actually have to use FTP clients and send everything that way. Yes everything is spelled out when you upload but actually having to get fire ftp or something similar and learn how it functions can actually help you if you decide to take a job editing ( I have had to pull videos from clients using fire ftp it helps in the long run). While it can be cumbersome I would say about 3-5 more clicks it is nice to know that small piece of information.What can users gain from the org's system in terms of learning rather than youtubes?
Jwalk0 wrote:Grab some popcorn, this is pretty long
When it comes to uploading it's so much easier thru YT's upload system. Even though you can't download AMVs from YT like you can from the org unless you use outside methods, the uploading thru YT is a lot more user friendly and common, like on many file sharing sites (which are now being taken out). Even though I have been using the org to upload my AMVs since I first joined, I've only done it by putting them thru indirect links like Sendspace.com and then linking them thru their AMV profiles here on the org. I will start using FTP though. To me and many other editors I know and don't know, FTP is something new and uncommon to us and for some editors I know, they've gotten lazy to use it and completely decided to not ever use it because of that. There are I think at least 5-6 steps to upload an amv thru FTP whereas thru YT it's only 1 step by clicking and that's it. Also the fact that you can upload huge files thru YT whereas there's extenstions new users will have to use in order to upload AMVs that are over 100MBs. I do see how FTP is more efficient when it comes to wanting everything you want to know and more to make the uploading process better and know everything you can do, but more people than less (who are extremely impatient) want to just upload and be done with it. They want their AMVs ready to be viewed or downloaded RIGHT AFTER they've uploaded them but if it takes time to upload it thru a new method, they don't want anything to do with it because they will see it as a hassle when they can do it thru the previous method which is easier to them.
It's easier for people to find out about newer AMVs thru YT, but ONLY, if they are subscribed to editors. I don't know exactly but I think Alerts is sort of like the subscription system on YT, but anyway. If you are a new editor and you upload your AMV on YT, there are more chances of it being watched, and commented on either positively, negatively, or with constructive criticism, from many people on YT than it is on the org.
As long as I've been here on the org, I've found out that the best way to watch a new AMV that an editor uploads thru the org is thru my Free Opinions thread. An editor can send me their AMV and I can watch it, enjoy, tolerate, not enjoy it, and then send them my thoughts on the AMV. In the AMV Announcements thread, it's poorly executed for editors to get their AMVs out to the public unless they are well known throughout the community or they get friends outside of the org to come. Many AMV threads in the announcement thread fight for anywhere near the top so they can be seen more and the only way they can be anywhere near the top is if someone drops a comment on them, whereas AMV threads that don't get as much comments on them, or any, gradually fall to the bottom and then locked. Even though it is a forum where the AMV Announcement thread is located, the only way an AMV thread can stay alive long enough is if enough people continually and gradually post comments in that thread over long periods time before it gets locked, like any other forum thread. Most editors know this and take advantage of that and other editors will hardly get much time to get their AMV threads out long enough before it gets locked. I don't know how but there has to be better ways on the org for newer editors to get their AMVs more noticed. The Opinion thread section is a fantastic way as long as the people who creates the opinion threads continues to give opinions, which is why I will always have my Free Opinions thread open so that newer editors and not-newer editors can get exactly what they need from their AMVs, which is a viewer who will give them an honest critique. I may not give it to them immediately, but it is guaranteed.
On YT an editor doesn't have to worry about an AMV not having enough time to have someone drop their thoughts on it before it gets locked in a section where lots of people gather at once to check it out because they have unlimited time to have their AMVs up and millions of people are always on YT, just as long as the AMV stays up on YT. On the org people have to search harder for editors who do crave for people to drop their thoughts on their AMVs who do not have their AMVs in the AMV Announcement thread, unless the folks really liked the AMVs and want to go out of their way to find the editor and tell them thru their AMVs.
I will agree that alotta editors want quick gratifications thru their AMVs by using YT for that since many viewers will drop what they want to hear, and that is bad in so many ways, including setting up that editor to get big-headed and create a certain view of themselves as not needing to improve and that they've already reached their ultimate potential. The org does an extremely better job of giving editors constructive criticism thru positives and negatives since more editors than less on the org do it to help the editor, and this is more allowed to the public here on the org than it is on YT. You do have some viewers on YT who will give constructive criticism too but more times than less, they will get flamed and ignored for it by the editor, the other viewers, or both parties. The editor may get to the point where he or she may decide to either postpone editing, quit editing, continue editing not believeing they need to improve, or rethink the ways of their edits for the better, but more editors thru the org don't quit and learn more from their mistakes faster from the org and improve than a majority of editors from YT who go the opposite direction and take longer to rethink their edits for the better. Editors who want quick gratification find out the hard way that they can't get that here on the org and a majority of them gets scared to use the org because of it because they don't want anything to rock their individual worlds, but they have to learn to think outside the box and to overcome their own fears so they can become better in whatever areas they believe they can, and not let the abundances of quick gratifications be the world to them.
YT does have it's fair share of the same things the org is for when it comes to constructive cristicisms changing editors' editing traits for the better, but not as much as the org. It's funny when I hear editors from YT say that the org has too many elitest editors cause personally to me, it's not as much compared to the abundance of them on YT, including the oh so many trolls from there. Not gonna say the editor's name but this guy bascially went to AMVs which were outright bad and just straight up mocked the AMVs while giving constructive crticisms, but he gave the constructive criticisms like a complete demon and made the editors turn into defenseless, angry children. He stopped doing it almost 3 years ago but at the time people couldn't tell if he was serious or not thru his tactics. But if he was a troll, like I said, there are WAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more of these types on YT than the org. If any, on the org. Plus, any internet forum will have it's share of retards and assholes. It's the internet, it's a big world, and both are full of them.
Continuing on where I left off on the AMV Announcement thread topic, personally I have seen many AMVs in the announcement thread that I didn't get a chance to post a comment in before it got locked. I've put it over 33 vids in my org account with about 7 of them I posted in the AMV Announcement thread and at least 3 of those AMVs got locked before anyone even dropped 1 comment on them. Even though life keeps me busy I wish I had more time to post comments on others' AMVs specifically in this thread. I do not have this problem at all thru YT. To those editors with low self-esteem, this can be really discouraging to them because they may feel like their skills aren't worth anything and then either decide to not edit for a while or permanently, or go back to just posting and announcing their AMVs thru YT. I speak for myself and everyone when I say you should not ever fall into this slump since you should make AMVs mostly for yourself, and you have to also do more than just post your AMVs in the announcement thread if you want to have your AMVs more noticed in the thread. Basically just make yourself more known within the community; participate in different threads, help out other editors, join in conversations, start threads outside of AMVs, just become a part of the community. Some editors don't want to go thru all this just so that other people will watch and comment on their AMVs, and they also don't see the benefits of this website providing more for them besides other people watching and commenting on their AMVs. These types of editors need to learn to grow and think outside the box.
I do believe that it's way more easier thru the org to find an AMV with a certain anime, song, and which editor made it than it is thru YT for many reasons though. One example is of course the copyright BS from YT. Hundreds, no thousands of AMVs from YT have been removed or blocked and it's harder for people to find exactly what they want in an AMV thru YT even when they input the anime, song, and the editor who made it. Not only because of the fact that there are a lot of AMVs and because it may not even be there anymore, but mostly because the editors won't put in the names of the animes or songs in the description boxes, tags, and titles of their AMVs for fear out of them getting taken down. I've even seen amvs with just the word "amv" in the tags get removed because of copyright. Editors from YT should have more than enough reasons to join the org thru just this because they do not have to worry about spending days, weeks, months, years, editing an AMV just to have it taken down or blocked in many countries as soon as it's uploaded. And they don't have to worry about wasting time trying to add unintentional things in their AMVs to bypass the copyright systems, which most of the time doesn't work.
Bottom line, if the uploading system was more conventional like on YT while still being able to download from it, and an editor could get as much attention on their AMVs like on YT, without a doubt, this website would have so much more editors joining it and staying on it daily than on YT. Some editors do favor YT more than the org since it's more popular and well known to the world and the viewcounts, but to those who favor more in this hobby besides these and wants to get their works out to a crowd tailored specifically to AMVs, they will have the desire to join the org and an even higher desire if the uploading system and attentions of their AMVs were more like YT's. Plus more editors from YT will want to spend more time making full AMVs than short betas which has been happening too much, I've noticed it since 2009. Even though I didn't even become remotely interested in AMVs until February 2007, I first found my love for them thru YT because a majority of the types of animes and songs I liked in AMVs were thru YT and a good many of the editors and viewers of these AMVs were good-hearted and laid-back folks. Opened an account on the org a month after I joined YT just to download AMVs and only that. And even though I didn't start editing until late that year, it wasn't until a year later from that point that I decided to open a new org account to post my AMVs on and to start becoming part of the org community. I keep hearing about many editors before and after me who did the same thing I did and would just download AMVs and also lurk the forums, and then down the road, do more than just download AMVs and become part of the community. More editors than less should have the mindset to come to the org with more open minds like they do more when they first come on YT, I do understand that part of the problem is the people themselves but the other part is the overall view they have of the org and with enough good views and advertisements of the org, that can be changed. Many editors have and can also use both YT and the org like I always have by uploading my amvs thru both websites and including the org download with the YT version, that way more people get to check out your works and can download them.
I will also say that even though YT has been going thru alotta unnecessary and discomforting changes for AMV editors, editors can find and build homes on YT thru this hobby and the friends they involved themselves with thru this hobby, just like on the org. I'm one of those editors whose a testament of that and even though I see YT as more of a home than it is on the org, it's only because I've been there longer and I've known my friends from there longer. The org is a wonderful and in some ways better place for an editor to have a home as long as they step outside the box, become thick-skinned but fully open to negative constructive criticisms, and participate more in the community.
_______________________CodeZTM wrote: (Well, I had a few of my panelists not able to answer, I decided to throw my own 2 cents on this)
To me, YouTube offers a better chance to network and socialize between editors of all kinds of different calibers, and sort of closes the skill gap between veteran and newcomer. I'm always amazed at how people just comment on my videos and then add me on Skype for a conversation about editing or just asking some questions about the anime I used. You can't do that as much on a-m-v.org when you're just walking into the forum.
Let's face it. We scare off nearly 90% of the newcomers without even doing/saying anything to them. We don't have an introduction forum, so they don't really have a chance to get their name out there except with an announcement forum or the grossly underused "newcomer" thread in General AMV. They don't really have a place to ask basic questions or whatnot. Yeah, they can "lurk", but who honestly likes hearing that when they come into a new forum? With youtube, you have your main channel, you can make a "HEY THIS IS ME" video to start off with, or just plain introduce yourself to other editors on their channels.
Also, for the love of God, give everyone a freaking edit button. Yeah, I'm a donator and I hate that we don't get as many perks as we used to, but holding out an edit button is just cruel. I love the comment removal system on YouTube, because when my stupidity asks "what anime is this", and then I see the credits rolling right after I ask it, I can remove it and not force the editor to take the time to answer a stupid question.
