I just have to know...

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Re: I just have to know...

Postby l33tmeatwad » Mon Nov 28, 2011 9:03 am

Leader Desslock wrote:I've been known to troll now and again...

I think there's a problem, if you are known to troll people, they won't be able to take your "advice" seriously, because they won't be able to tell it's worth anything until someone who doesn't troll a lot basically repeats what you said. There are a lot of people that can't take critical feedback (or don't want it), but those that are after it generally like to get feedback from someone that seems trustworthy, not someone who is known for trolling.
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Re: I just have to know...

Postby Skylark2 » Mon Nov 28, 2011 9:47 am

I originally had posted my response on Animenation a while ago. I hope it's alright to share a copy of my response here.

Err . . . filtering back to Leader Desslock's questions:

I find the answer to understanding the negative and positive feedback freak-outs is to (hopefully) empathize with others because of my own experiences posting over the years, or from observing the experiences of others involved in give-and-take. I assume the creator gene is in all of us and so these questions can be generally directed at any musician, painter, baker, director, actor, writer, manga artist or, of course, the AMV creator. I find it natural and human, particularly when a person goes public with their ideas or creations for the first time, that there may be frustration when certain things don't fly with the reviewer or critics over the work put in display.

But that doesn't mean creators with years of experience and backbone may not freak-out once and a while in later years: some years ago, in a radio program I was listening to, I remember Frank Miller getting nasty at an innocent but honest reviewer that didn't like his version of Catwomen in the Batman Year One comic book.

Also, in another example, I recall the story given by a craftsman/teacher I knew -- an experienced character designer and animator I met -- that mentioned that he became visibly angry in front of a prospective client over the lack of a positive response to his pitch for a animated short. I take it that sometimes rejection can still be hard to take in any business or endeavor even if you are a production veteran. (But because of that experience, however, he went on to set up a successful animation school and had his students make the film with his own budget.)

What the **** is it with so many (in my person experience) AMV creators that: a) compels them to post their work publicly

Feeding the ego may not be the only lure, it also may be to share their experiences and the feelings evoked by their creation as something special, just like people post on AN to share their experiences and appreciation for great storytelling or great anime. At anime conventions I try to see fan art that are displayed – I try to see the emotion and passion in the work that the fan artists are able to convey (most times it doesn't matter to me what level of experience the artist may be nestled at).

Let me add too that some posters are not only looking for positive feedback, but they are probably also looking for positive or negative critiques that are useful feedback.

Along with other motivational factors, I sometimes post my own work to test audience response to my own ideas. In some cases, and if a person is really lucky, a person might post their creation online and find a career. See here.

b) compels them to ask for critical feedback

My guess is because it helps to have any feedback. By requesting it you may get someone to participate, whether the work may bring a negative response or a positive one.

c) causes them to freak the hell out when you find the tiniest fault with it?!

Because, damn it, it may still hurt anyway -- whether you're a experienced Frank Miller or an AMV creator like Mr. Sidney H. Flopgoblin.

I've had times defended my work from certain critiques and then later had second thoughts – often times I had come around the critic's perspective and made changes. An example of that is my student animated film titled Dead Banana. The instructor recommended that I flip a couple of scenes into a different order. Initially, after getting most of the work where I wanted it, my knee-jerk response was to defend what I had done so far and object to any changes. Weeks later I could see and understood the instructor's perspective and thought the instructor was right. I changed the scene. But that too is another thing, and a word of warning: in some cases the reviewer or critic better know their stuff or there will be skepticism. That instructor knew his stuff.

What is it about the AMV community that makes them proportionately less able to accept feedback, but still compelled to seek it?

See the last two lines above . . . that and the AMV community still sounds like lots of fun anyhow. Besides, who wants to really keep any of their films in the closet anyway.
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Re: I just have to know...

Postby irriadin » Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:32 am

Fall_Child42 wrote:That sure is a whole lot of words to ask

"Why do some people take criticism poorly?"


x3

However, I will say that certain communities react to criticism differently. Every time I've made a critical comment on YouTube, people in the comments will do their best to make it seem like I don't know what I'm talking about. The video creator is usually receptive of what I have to say, but I've basically concluded that YouTube isn't the proper forum for real analysis and critique.

So I'll reiterate what others have said. 1. One individual isn't representative of the whole community. 2. Each community has its own accepted norms; YouTube comments are generally extremely polarizing ("I LOVE IT" vs "OMG THIS SHIT SUX"), so balanced criticism can be so far out of what's expected that a lot of people just don't know how to deal with it.
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Re: I just have to know...

Postby Leader Desslock » Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:40 am

Wow. Didn't think this would actually get posted.

A couple of the replies are along the lines of what I'm looking for,and I'll reply later when I get a chance. Thanks for everyone's responses so far, though!
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Re: I just have to know...

Postby BasharOfTheAges » Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:51 am

Leader Desslock wrote:Wow. Didn't think this would actually get posted.

PHPBB has a last line of defense spam filter for sites that don't have the luxury of blanket banning regions of the globe where most spam bots operate (china, russia, etc). What it does is quarantines all posts by new users until mods actively verify you are not a spam bot. People were just busy this holiday weekend.
Last edited by BasharOfTheAges on Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I just have to know...

Postby Fall_Child42 » Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:52 am

Leader Desslock wrote:Wow. Didn't think this would actually get posted.

A couple of the replies are along the lines of what I'm looking for,and I'll reply later when I get a chance. Thanks for everyone's responses so far, though!


Why did you think this would not get posted?
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Re: I just have to know...

Postby TritioAFB » Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:10 am

I love honest people when dealing with feedback. I always keep saying that IF I were in youtube, comments like: awesome! amazing! or stuff like that is accepted. It's youtube after all so I can't really ask for honest feedback.

Problem is like some editors that have spent all their life as editors in YouTube enters into a "Security Zone" so they keep editing the same, the same and the same. And if they make candypop effects, the viewers just get accostumed that even their bad clips are considered "awesomeness"

It will affect the way the editor takes the criticism. For me as an example:

It's good when I receive comments from people enjoying the vid, I mean, that's one of the best rewards an editor may receive. When I receive a comment that's based to improve facts for next vids, I always read them and keep them in mind next time I plan something similar. That's the way I've been improving this year, obviously I don't find something useful in comments like: Anime sucks! or you suck!

At Akross for example, I have to justify myself everytime I comment in a video saying if I like it or not. I don't believe in the perfect feedback, so as I will point positive points I will do the same with negative points, but I'll not bash an editor just because I don't like music selection or anime selection. That being said, for me you can be a famous editor as you can be a beginner. You may be my favorite editor or I might hate the way you are, but that doesn't give me the reason to give a poor feedback. It's about the clip I'm reviewing, not the author.

I always will to offer feedback, since I feel like that's my original purpose in the amv world. Watching generations of editors coming and leaving it's just something I always keep in mind before reviewing an amv, and like the rest I had my own experiences, training editors through the feedback, or just forgetting about the "failed-promises"
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Re: I just have to know...

Postby Skylark2 » Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:19 am

From the previous post by Skylark2 :

Along with other motivational factors, I sometimes post my own work to test audience response to my own ideas. In some cases, and if a person is really lucky, a person might post their creation online and find a career. See here.


The link in the words 'See here' wasn't transferred over. Here's that link:

http://www.nextmovie.com/blog/tintin-fan-job-spielberg/
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Re: I just have to know...

Postby Tailmon » Mon Nov 28, 2011 1:40 pm

There is criticism and there is advice. One needs to be more tactful about how you approach and talk to the person you are
trying to criticize or advise. Critics normally come off as assholes that pick apart anything they dislike. It can be so pointed and fine that they even dislike how someone writes. We all have a certain style when we do things. If one critic dislikes your style and everyone else loves it do you listen to the critic? If Mark Twain or Allen Poe listened to critics we would have lost great
classics. I've found that critics in many cases are people with no imagination and criticize others because they hate them.

Advice if done properly is not criticism. I've encouraged young people to write all the time. My family seems to have thing about writing. Now no one is perfect when they do things or put things together. It could be considered style a fault or in some cases mild dyslexia. I was never told I had it. Yet I managed to get past it and even through college. I was told by my teacher in an English lit class that I would never be able to write. I found out later after they fired her she was an opinionated critical ass. If it was not in a style like she had it was crap and given failing scores. I found out later that my technical writing teacher actually considered my writing one of the best he had encountered in years. Now who helped and encouraged me more? The Desslock style of criticism or the teacher that helped me and encouraged me?

People that call themselves "A troll now and then." And are known to troll several forums under the guise as a so called critic. Are noting but what most moderators call a "Super Troll." These people do nothing but bait and troll forums for their fun and even spend hours digging to bring up things on anyone that complains or tries to disrupt his trolling fun. In some cases these Super Trolls actually are a cause of many a forums decline by chasing others off the forums. They can call others to their bandwagon and chase off people under the guise of criticism.
Critics criticize because they have no other purpose in life than to be jealous of others that create.
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Re: I just have to know...

Postby ZephyrStar » Mon Nov 28, 2011 1:44 pm

This has been pretty well covered in the thread. I think one of the big reasons people can't handle constructive criticism is that we live in a very narcissistic society today, everyone wants to be a winner without doing the work to get there. More accurately, everyone thinks they already are a winner, so any attempt at pointing out things that might make their work better is automatically seen as flaming, or hating, or what have you. It takes an open mind to get used to constructive criticism. I don't know why it seems to be more the case with AMVs, but what was said previously about this site is very true, most of the people here can dish it out and take it, and we make good use of it.
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Re: I just have to know...

Postby Leader Desslock » Mon Nov 28, 2011 1:50 pm

Thanks for the folks who've responded seriously. For the rest, "Eh." If I didn't have thick enough skin to take a little snark, I should stay off the internet, right?

To respond to a few individual points:

BasharOfTheAges wrote:You do realize you're posting this question on a website that has been vilified as a haven for mean-spirited, elitist snobs because, unlike youtube, those of us dedicated to the hobby enough to post here actually hold feedback and critique in the highest regard.

You need to take a look at where you are. This isn't youtube...

...your post shows an almost hilarious level of ignorance of the situation. This is all, quite literally, preaching to the choir.

Ha, ha... no, I actually had no idea. I've never been here before. That is hilarious. :lol:

Fall_Child42 wrote:That sure is a whole lot of words to ask

"Why do some people take criticism poorly?"

Not quite what I asked, though. I asked about my own personal perception that there seemed to be a slightly higher incidence of that behaviour amoung AMV creators, compared to other fan-based artwork.

Could be lots of reasons for that. I don't associate with the anime fanbase beyond AN, so... maybe AN attracts a higher proportion of the thin-skinned ones. Beats me, but having evidently ticked off yet another one, I thought I'd ask in a place it made more sense to ask. We've had this discussion on AN, and I haven't really gotten anywhere with it. AN prefers strong criticism to bland flattery, so we scare off the ones I'm talking about, frankly.

Prodigi wrote:Fan-fiction writers for the most part seem to write romanticized trash and slash fic that requires no imagination or ability.

Actually, I'm going to agree with you on that one.

Prodigi wrote:You see what I did there? I took a small sample of my own experience with both editing and fan fiction writers and extrapolated it as a whole. Can you now see how what you've written could be interpreted in the same way by us? Yes, obviously you've had some bad experiences with editors not taking criticism. You know what you do then? Don't talk to them.

I typically don't, once they've had the inevitable meltdown, obviously. I'm trying to get at the heart of that seemingly self-induced meltdown.

Prodigi wrote:Okay, so you don't indicate them by name, but it still appears you're going out of your way to enforce your own opinion on someone else who clearly doesn't want to hear it. After they deleted the initial thread, unhappy with your feedback, you felt it necessary to follow onto their youtube channel and make similar comments there?

Um, no - never made a critical comment at that point, as I said. It is a pet peeve of mine when someone deletes feedback they asked me to post (even after being warned it would be honest), so all I posted was "Next time, don't ask for honest feedback if you're not willing to accept it." I signed my name so they'd know who it was. Nothing snarky.

Prodigi wrote:Yes, I realise I'm taking this quote out of context and that you did make some valid points before it, I acknowledge that.

The context before that established what I meant by "eh." It was forgettable not because it was bad, but because it was so similar to the ocean of similar "pile of clips I like plus a song I like" AMVs out there that it was indistinguishable. The comments before that involved what I perceived as a lack of actual expression in the work beyond that. It's that expression that distinguishes a creative work. Absent that, my reaction was "eh", which is how I summed it up in case he didn't want to read the rest. I wouldn't have just said it on its own, and yes, I agree that to do so would have been unconstructive. But I think giving it as an intitial reaction/summary opinion is constructive, as it sums up the non-critical reaction the piece is likely to receive.

Prodigi wrote:Now if you read my response and think "well your own reply can be used against you because you've just done the exact same thing to me" well that's the point.

Nah, that's not what I thought at all. I'm just happy someone took the time to write a well-thought-out reply. Thanks! And props for the Gene Wilder reference.

Warlike Swans wrote:I hope you do value critiques as much as you claim to because your writing could use work.

My online forum rant style isn't indicative of my professional writing style, which is true for most authors, I think. I can post a copy of something I posted over at AN, if you like. Fair's fair.

Let's see... What the heck... Christmas is coming up anyway:
http://animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?t=210888

Feel free to tear me a new one. :-)


Well, gotta run. I'll check back later. Thanks again, all!
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Re: I just have to know...

Postby zibbazabba905 » Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:32 pm

I like how you chased them down just to tell them their video was "eh..."
"Uhmmm... You know... it was at that point that I realized that maybe Thierry wasn't actually a film maker, and he was maybe just someone with mental problems who happened to have a camera. " -Banksy
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Re: I just have to know...

Postby Radical_Yue » Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:24 pm

zibbazabba905 wrote:I like how you chased them down just to tell them their video was "eh..."


The chasing down part is pretty messed up.

The "eh..." part I can understand. I believe describing something as "eh..." or "bland" or "boring" etc... is completely acceptable, as long as you provide information as to why you're reacting that way to the video.

How many times have you described, say a restaurant, to someone you know as "Eh....it's not bad but it's not good."
Vocalizing a negative feeling or mood that a video creates (with the reason why it creates that feeling or mood) can be just as helpful from a criticism standpoint as telling the editor what parts were exciting, etc...

Ex.

"The editing and x and y was brilliant! Felt like a major adrenaline rush and totally kept me on the edge of my seat! Fast, fun and kick ass video!"
or
"The video....it was just kind of eh...the combination has been done to death and while the editing wasn't horrible, there just wasn't anything to make it stand out from the rest. Sorry man, I didn't dig it."

So, used the correct way, I see it as a more "personal" means of delivery criticism. Telling the editor how it made you feel and why is just kind of an extra step than outlying technical problems. That and it seems like a more human response than "THIS IS INTERNET. SRS BZNS. YOU WILL GET FEEDBACK WITH TIMESTAMPS, TECHNICAL PROBLEMS AND NOTHING MOOOOORE."

Now, if all you say it's "That was boring as shit. I hope your mother hit by a bus and her brain matters splatters all over your face in the process."
Theeeeeeen, that's not cool :P
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Re: I just have to know...

Postby Taite » Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:45 am

Basically all you're doing is venting/complaining about the people who don't take criticism well. I think you made valid points here and there, but my question is: who actually gives a fuck?

People in all types of "communities for hobbies" can't take criticism, ie: fanfiction people. However, seeing as you're an outsider to the "amv editing community," it's interesting seeing what you think. But none of what you said is factual, it's all based on a few observations, and not really of this forum. I've read a few fanfictions, but I'm not going to go and say that everyone in that community is a sick fuck, because I only read a few.
You are mostly describing people who post their amvs on youtube anyhow, sorry.
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Re: I just have to know...

Postby Fall_Child42 » Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:50 am

Taite wrote: I've read a few fanfictions, but I'm not going to go and say that everyone in that community is a sick fuck, because I only read a few..


I'll say that!

Everyone in they fan-fiction community are sick disturbed individuals with poor writing ability and they also smell.
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