Uploading large files to the org. A common misconception.

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Uploading large files to the org. A common misconception.

Postby Cenit » Sat Sep 24, 2011 5:35 pm

I want to point out a common misconception about uploading large files to the org. I'm most grateful for them to host the files but in their assumption, large files can only be justified by long runtime lies a mistake. The assumption, all videos use the same Framerate. A video with twice the framerate will in some cases double the filesize to a video with lower fps.

In my talks to moderators about uploading a fast paced action video with lots of cgi to the org they told me that 135 mb is too big for a 220 seconds 720p 48fps amv (10600 frames). Based on the Japanese BluRay footage i already compressed that video very high and JCD and mirkosp were really giving me a lot of help in the process but i won't go higher than crf 22 (they suggested crf 21 which was ofc bigger) - it just doesn't look like it should. And i wont get those 35 mb out of it if i don't go to crf 25 or 26.

My point is: Filesize shouldn't be measured by the runtime but by the frames and resolution. By frames my AMV would be 7,5 min long when encoded to 24 fps. I'm highly disappointed of the org at this moment. Maybe a general statement saying "high framerates are bullshit - don't try editing like that - we don't care either" would be awesome. in that case i wouldn't need the 50 extra hours for it to make editing and rotoscoping look perfect.

I want a large file request solution that acknowledges "frames equal filesize", not "runtime equals filesize". And maybe a rule "if you only upload 2 videos a year to the org we won't bith that much about 35 extra mb - if you upload 2 videos each week you are already getting enough from us". By that i could at least upload my video to the org and get quick comments. Or how about quick comments for the direct/indirect download. I want the org feedback. That's why i am here.
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Re: Uploading large files to the org. A common misconception

Postby Pwolf » Sat Sep 24, 2011 6:17 pm

Have you actually talked to anyone about it other then the initial request? Do you understand the reasons behind the file size limit in the first place? As soon as you said "i'm highly disappointing of the org" I lost all sympathy. This is a free service the org provides, we are lucky enough to even have the ability to upload videos here in the first place. And it's not cheap. I'm from a time when we HAD to purchase our own hosting to share videos online so I'm happy with just being able to upload stuff for free. If the file is to too large I try my best to keep it low and work with the org to see if I can get it uploaded. If I can't I put it up on my server.

That said, I agree to a point. Personally i'm in the "high frame rates" are bullshit group. Unless the source was natively 60fps (or 48fps in your case), leave it alone. I think interpolating frames looks like ass and doubling the frame rate so you can double the speed of the source making everything move super fast is pointless. On the other hand, I agree that basing everything of the length of the video is the wrong way to go about it. Outside of just frame rate, there are plenty of other factors that can go into making the file size larger. I think it should be re-evaluated or at least looked at to see if the criteria should be changed.

And maybe someone (dero? tim?) can give us a better reason why the limit is set to 100mb? What is our current storage situation and rate of growth? Would increasing this limit to 200mb make a difference? If the limit cannot be raised due to storage reasons, what would it take to fix that (buy more hardware perhaps?)?
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Re: Uploading large files to the org. A common misconception

Postby BasharOfTheAges » Sat Sep 24, 2011 7:40 pm

I'm going to guess it's about encouraging people to not suck at encoding in 99% of all cases.
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Re: Uploading large files to the org. A common misconception

Postby Cenit » Sun Sep 25, 2011 2:51 am

I am grateful for the hosting they do. I just think their point about large files is outdated. If someone uploads 50 videos a year the org will need a lot mor storage than if someone uploads 2 videos. By definition of filesize, only uploading a small amount of videos to the org (or no videos) helps them. Maybe the file size limit is not only to protect themselfs but also to encourage us to become professionals at encoding. I'm currently looking for my own webspace and hope to fix this problem of mine within the next 1-2 weeks. I also think i will stop using high framerates in the future. There is no point in it. Its a hell of work and 90% of the people wont even notice. Needless to say youtube won't use it and convention beamers don't profit from it. Maybe instead i'll blur everything when i upseed clips to make it lookmore natural at 24 fps.
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Re: Uploading large files to the org. A common misconception

Postby Cenit » Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:11 am

In addition i want to point out that by keeping the filesizelimit at 100 mb, in the future this could become a whole new challenge for encoders. Going 5 years into the future, there could be a VCA category "Best orgable video" where we rate the best 4K resolution videos that stay under the limit of 100 mb. Just thinking. The Demo scene also has challenges about the filesize of a music video where they programm shit to stay under 64kb or 1,44mb. It's quite amazing to see what they achieve.
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Re: Uploading large files to the org. A common misconception

Postby Nya-chan Production » Sun Sep 25, 2011 2:51 pm

I have only one thing.

Large upload request.
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Re: Uploading large files to the org. A common misconception

Postby CodeZTM » Sun Sep 25, 2011 2:57 pm

I think the 100 MB upload rate is reasonable. As Pwolf mentioned, there are a LOT of people that don't know how to basically encode, and that's a LOT of space to eat up over time.

Nya-chan Production wrote:I have only one thing.

Large upload request.


I'm fine with this function, but the process needs to be expedited. I've heard of people waiting weeks/months on getting one of these approved. I know i essentially just pm an admin when I need one, because I would otherwise be unable to obtain it in a timely fashion.
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Re: Uploading large files to the org. A common misconception

Postby Pwolf » Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:08 pm

Nya-chan Production wrote:I have only one thing.

Large upload request.


He did and he got rejected based on the length of the video.
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Re: Uploading large files to the org. A common misconception

Postby Otohiko » Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:13 pm

Here's an idea: how about automating or partially automating large upload requests? Instead of waiting for approval by admin, how about automatically allowing increases up to 200mb as long as the editor goes through and fills in the form with reasons, and then the record gets forwarded to admins - where in case the application info is bogus, the permission can be retracted and local file deleted. I feel like the increase isn't going to massively erode our space, while the form and feedback from the editor will ensure it's not going to run into abuse.

I'd give it a try. IMO the majority of those who submit the requests do so for good reasons and it's only fair not to keep them waiting, especially if they're willing to justify themselves. If the questions on the form are structured correctly, it should also deter people from thoughtlessly putting in lazily-compressed videos.
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Re: Uploading large files to the org. A common misconception

Postby Cenit » Sun Sep 25, 2011 6:53 pm

Otohiko wrote:Here's an idea: how about automating or partially automating large upload requests? Instead of waiting for approval by admin, how about automatically allowing increases up to 200mb as long as the editor goes through and fills in the form with reasons, and then the record gets forwarded to admins - where in case the application info is bogus, the permission can be retracted and local file deleted. I feel like the increase isn't going to massively erode our space, while the form and feedback from the editor will ensure it's not going to run into abuse.

Thanks for reply. Sounds awesome to me. Definitly support this Idea.
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Re: Uploading large files to the org. A common misconception

Postby mirkosp » Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:52 pm

But did you try encoding it in Hi10P or did you try only 8bit encoding? 'Cause I remember suggesting that too, but I don't know what you ended up doing. >_>
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Re: Uploading large files to the org. A common misconception

Postby Zarxrax » Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:47 am

He shouldn't have to encode to a format that no one will be able to watch >.>
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Re: Uploading large files to the org. A common misconception

Postby mirkosp » Thu Sep 29, 2011 2:30 pm

Zarxrax wrote:He shouldn't have to encode to a format that no one will be able to watch >.>

Anyone who isn't using a half a year old CCCP or MadVR or LAVF or CoreAVC or ffdshow-tryouts or mplayer or mplayer2 or K-Lite (yes, even that) or MPlayerX or VLC nightly you mean (and I very likely forgot something else)?
There's a shitton fuckload of decoders/codec packs/players that already support it, both inside and outside of directshow, and not only on windows, but on osx and linux too. Don't be the xvidfag of the decade, zarx. :nono:
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Re: Uploading large files to the org. A common misconception

Postby EvaFan » Thu Sep 29, 2011 5:51 pm

Offer a larger cap to people with donation status. Incentive to donate and gives ppl the option of not having to deal with finding hosting for their HDamv's that go a little above the cap without having to sacrifice some quality. Its a good roundabout way to deal with it benefiting both parties. People that donate are paying for the bandwidth anyway, if you ask me its fair for them to use a bit more of it.
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Re: Uploading large files to the org. A common misconception

Postby BasharOfTheAges » Thu Sep 29, 2011 5:53 pm

EvaFan wrote:Offer a larger cap to people with donation status. Incentive to donate and gives ppl the option of not having to deal with finding hosting for their HDamv's that go a little above the cap without having to sacrifice some quality. Its a good roundabout way to deal with it benefiting both parties. People that donate are paying for the bandwidth anyway, if you ask me its fair for them to use a bit more of it.

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