Welcome to General Deception

This forum is for members to discuss topics that do not relate to anime music videos.

Re: Welcome to General Deception

Postby BasharOfTheAges » Wed Jan 12, 2011 4:06 pm

Y'know, the only reason I called this place a library in the first place was that, like a library, we don't allow porn and we have rules against being an insufferable prick to other people (or at least guidelines) - those were the only things NME gave as what he wanted to do that he couldn't and seemed to be the crux of his immature argument. Every other point of comparison after that was just gravy. Harping on that tangent is pretty divergent to the point. I mean, it's an interesting discussion and made this thread have value if people want to skip the first two pages of nonsense, but it is kinda tangential.
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Re: Welcome to General Deception

Postby Arigatomina » Wed Jan 12, 2011 5:08 pm

JaddziaDax wrote:Go out find popular amv and put it in the catalog. You want to talk about people not having the control after they upload, if we were to "stock our shelves" the way libraries do then we would have more pissed off people.


Arigatomina wrote:If the org were a library... It would be out there looking for new vids and asking the editors' permission to host them here on the org.


Okay? I never did and would never suggest that the org take people's videos without permission.

...and I'd like to see more viewer related features on this site.

So would I. But like you said, the current view is that this site is for editors only. I'm talking about what the org actually is (in my opinion), not what I'd like it to be.

Please tell me you are only speaking for yourself.

No, I was talking about the people who have trickled away from the org in the last few years, around the same time ops died out and QCs became something you hold your breath and hope for. Those editors. I just switched hobbies because I was being harrassed here and decided there were more fun things to do with my time. I hope to get back into amvs and when I do, I have a website with my own hosting that gets a lot of traffic. I won't need the org to provide me with an audience. In fact, I'd get a friendlier audience far away from the org. ^^;

I bet a lot of authors would stop writing books if they heard that all the libraries were going to shut down.

If so, they should do it now. Libraries are becoming as out of date these days as newspapers. It's all digital now. Why bother going to a library when you can download the ebook without leaving your home? Why buy a heavy space consuming stack of paper when you can read your news online? Why bother checking movies out at the library when you can download and burn your own copy in a few minutes? That's why I kept harping on the fact that libraries don't need a lot of visitors to continue to be supported. They get fewer visitors every year just like magazines get fewer subscribers. We maintain libraries because we like the idea, not because they're still being used the way they were intended to be.

...what about a private library? I'm sure that a school library isn't there to specifically supply books to anyone, it's there as a resource for the people attending the school. Not just anyone can go to a school library and borrow books.

True. But the org isn't that kind of library, either, because anyone can come to the org and download videos. They don't even have to sign up if they use the direct download links.

Even if some of the aspects of the org are unlike a PUBLIC library that doesn't mean that the org isn't essentially a library of amvs.

What kind of library is it, then? We agree it's not a public library. It's not a teaching library like you find at universities because anyone can come in and get a library card without paying tuition to attend the school. It's not a private library because the org doesn't keep the videos it has collected all to its lonesome, but rather shares freely with anyone interested in getting a card. What other kinds of libraries are there? It's definitely a database, but a library implies there are actual copies of the things listed available to be 'browsed through' if not 'checked out'. The org doesn't even fulfill that requirement since it lists tons of vids that were never actually made.

/This is a really fun to discuss. But, yeah, it's not going anywhere and it's totally off topic. Sorry. We've got mods (admin?) in this thread. Smack me for being off-topic so I have to drop it and stay away for a while. I won't hold it against ya. I'm addicted, I can't quit on my own. ;p

BasharOfTheAges wrote:It's called the first sale doctrine.

Thanks. I'm googling that asap. I want to know how it works with video rentals as well. And what exactly constitutes "private screening" on that screen that pops up at the start of every movie. ;p

godix wrote:And how many times have we seen videos reuploaded and available on dozens of different accounts?

Members do that, not the website itself. And unlike on the tube, when people see it happening here and report it, the mods here delete those videos for us. For me, that's one of the org's biggest selling points. You're only allowed one account and you can only upload your own videos to that account. Those who are caught breaking those rules actually get in trouble here, unlike the tube where you have to threaten legal action before they'll bother enforcing their own rules.
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Re: Welcome to General Deception

Postby BasharOfTheAges » Wed Jan 12, 2011 5:48 pm

Arigatomina wrote:
BasharOfTheAges wrote:It's called the first sale doctrine.

Thanks. I'm googling that asap. I want to know how it works with video rentals as well. And what exactly constitutes "private screening" on that screen that pops up at the start of every movie. ;p

That's a public performance license issue. Though those are a bit more nebulous wrt the law. Groups like the MPAA, and sports leagues like the NFL and MLB often try to state in very broad terms the rights they claim to have as if they were the force of law - even when those assertions are sometimes bunk (talking or writing about those games without the consent of the league is illegal? the hell it is). Major League Baseball even tried to claim they owned player's stats so they could sue fantasy leagues at one point. It's no wonder people don't know.
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Re: Welcome to General Deception

Postby godix » Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:30 pm

Arigatomina wrote:If so, they should do it now. Libraries are becoming as out of date these days as newspapers. It's all digital now. Why bother going to a library when you can download the ebook without leaving your home?

Because libraries are shifting to digital too. Many libraries subscribe to a service (Overdrive is the most common AFAIK) which allow loaning of e-books. You have to put up with DRM crap, but it's worth it for access to half a million e-books without having to pay a dime.
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Re: Welcome to General Deception

Postby JaddziaDax » Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:47 pm

Okay? I never did and would never suggest that the org take people's videos without permission.

Libraries don't need to ask permission to obtain copies.. We ask people to upload their own stuff to elevate drama. Also the PROXY account... apparently at one time the org DID go out and take people's videos without permission. Apparently the policy on the org has changed since then though :P I was never putting words in your mouth, just pointing out the fact that we have in the past obtained our material in a different way than now.

So would I. But like you said, the current view is that this site is for editors only. I'm talking about what the org actually is (in my opinion), not what I'd like it to be.

The difference here is that I'm talking about the site itself, not the people on it, in terms as to why I'd equate the org to a library. Granted the people on it can sway the direction the site takes, but in terms of the site itself the org can still be easily compared to an online library of sorts.

No, I was talking about the people who have trickled away from the org in the last few years, around the same time ops died out and QCs became something you hold your breath and hope for. Those editors.

You presume to speak for all of them?

You said:
"Editors might not continue to make amvs if viewers stopped visiting the places where amvs are shared. Editors might not continue to make amvs if org and tube style amv-sharing places no longer existed."

So you are saying this is the reason all of them quit making amvs? are you saying lack of viewers is the one reason they all quit? If that were the case, I would think that they would just go to where the viewers are now rather than just quit. That is if they are actually dedicated to the hobby.

Though I don't think its a matter of dedication. I would think that perhaps things came up in their life that is more important than making videos.

If so, they should do it now. Libraries are becoming as out of date these days as newspapers. It's all digital now. Why bother going to a library when you can download the ebook without leaving your home?

This statement presumes that you have a computer to download that ebook with.. lots of people these days go to libraries to use their computers and access the internet.

Why buy a heavy space consuming stack of paper when you can read your news online? Why bother checking movies out at the library when you can download and burn your own copy in a few minutes?

Some people still like the feel of the paper in their hand. They like the smell of the ink and glue. The second question also assumes that a person has access to a computer connected to the internet and then knows where and how to download movies.

That's why I kept harping on the fact that libraries don't need a lot of visitors to continue to be supported. They get fewer visitors every year just like magazines get fewer subscribers. We maintain libraries because we like the idea, not because they're still being used the way they were intended to be.

Actually we don't need a lot of visitors to be supported either, although a lot of us act like it's the end of the hobby if we don't get more.

If the hobby dwindles then the bandwidth usage goes down, and we don't have to pay as large bandwidth fees. The people who are still really into it will probably try hard to keep the site alive if they are dedicated enough.

True. But the org isn't that kind of library, either, because anyone can come to the org and download videos. They don't even have to sign up if they use the direct download links.

Not every video has a direct link, an indirect link or even a local link. The links are extra. It's the listing that is the essential information about the video.

The org doesn't even fulfill that requirement since it lists tons of vids that were never actually made.

how do you know every single video listed without a link wasn't made? yes maybe some of them probably weren't made, but there's no proof to that statement either way unless we want to track down every person who has a "no" link.

Smack me for being off-topic

Why? this is the off topic forum :P I believe it's perfectly legit to go on tangents here.

All in all: Maybe the org is a "new" kind of library... I'm not saying that it has to be a library but just that this site is equatable to one, and I can understand why people use this analogy.
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Re: Welcome to General Deception

Postby Arigatomina » Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:20 pm

JaddziaDax wrote:You presume to speak for all of them?

You said:
"Editors might not continue to make amvs if viewers stopped visiting the places where amvs are shared. Editors might not continue to make amvs if org and tube style amv-sharing places no longer existed."

Note the m-word I bolded here. I didn't say all editors, or even most editors. I didn't say they had or they would. I said they might. If you're convinced no editors might ever stop for the reason I gave, that's fine. You're more optimistic than me.

And I'm not presuming anything. I'm speaking about them and about my predictions as to what other people like them might do in certain situations. That's why in my reply (which you quoted!) I said "I was talking about the people..." About, not for.

Some people still like the feel of the paper in their hand. They like the smell of the ink and glue. The second question also assumes that a person has access to a computer connected to the internet and then knows where and how to download movies.

Yeah, some people still do. Statistics say it's a lot fewer people than it used to be though. As for internet access, I live in the US. Our president's big idea for stimulating the economy and promoting education is to spread interent access to the entire country. Those who don't have it will. It becomes cheaper every day. Purchasing a computer is still expensive, but considering how many people on welfare can still afford a kindle, wii, and blackberry, I figure home computers can't be as hard to get as they used to be. [And that's me being optimistic.]

Actually we don't need a lot of visitors to be supported either, although a lot of us act like it's the end of the hobby if we don't get more.

Agreed. If the org stopped worrying about attracting leeches and focused on the members who stick around and donate, there would be no need for any redesigns. We've got a good 30+ years before the oldest donators croak of old age. It's a little early to be panicking.

Not every video has a direct link, an indirect link or even a local link. The links are extra. It's the listing that is the essential information about the video.

That's what imdb has. But that's a database, not a library. You could compare it to a card catelogue in a library, but you can order those books from other libraries and they don't list books that never existed.

how do you know every single video listed without a link wasn't made?

Why do you keep putting words in my mouth? Seriously, it's a little annoying. I said tons. Meaning a lot. Not all. Not even most. We've got zillions of vids listed here. If even 100 of those listings are fake, that's a ton of fakes. But it's also a small fraction of the total.

I quit. Thanks. I can't even pretend you're misreading what I write when you quote me and then respond to something completely different from what I said in the quote right above your response. :?
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Re: Welcome to General Deception

Postby aesling » Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:04 pm

Arigatomina wrote:I get the feeling everyone's intentionally missing my point. (Except Oto, props for understanding my English). Thanks.


I think you are missing your own point in that you are continuing to go on extended rants about a metaphor.
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Re: Welcome to General Deception

Postby JaddziaDax » Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:23 am

Yeah I quit too since you seem to be misconstruing what I'm saying as well :P and just being nitpicky about semantics in general :P
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