Can action have any originality?

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Can action have any originality?

Postby godix » Sat Dec 18, 2010 7:11 pm

I've never made a secret that I don't like actions videos. In my mind, the entire genre is nothing but beat sync and effects. Even the really well done ones still boil down to just beat sync and effects. With every other genre, I can think of videos that show high originality. In action vids, I can't think of anything. To find a truly original action video I had to go back to the era when effects were first becoming common. There are some where an effect was so groundbreaking it's really original (IE when Decoy first hit the scene). But for the most part even when a new effect pops up, it's used in exactly the same way effects were before. It might look pretty, but it doesn't actually change anything about the video.

So I'm curious, what's the last original action video you guys have seen? What made it original. Bonus points if your reply doesn't go 'The effects were original....' And, perhaps more importantly, is it possible to make an action video that is more than beat sync and effects, or are those two things so tied up in what action is that going beyond them automatically takes you out of the genre?

Also let me clarify something. Action videos crossed over with another genre can be original. Action/drama is pretty common, and I know I've seen action/romance, action comedy, etc as well. Castor Troy for example has done several original things with crossovers both in series and genres. However, the original part of those videos is the other genre. The action parts of those videos are nothing more than what I've been talking about, effects and beat sync. When I'm asking about originality in action, I actually mean the action parts.
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Re: Can action have any originality?

Postby BasharOfTheAges » Sat Dec 18, 2010 8:01 pm

I've always been of the opinion that action is inherently defined by the sync it's using. We even use that in the explanation of what the action genre is about for things like VCA categories. Strangely enough, this means concepts like fun/upbeat and Dance are actually categories inspired by action. I've seen an awful lot of drama vids about fighting that claim they're action - they seem to fill up about 2/3 of the action category at contests. They're still not really action as it's been defined.

I guess it's all in how you want to set your scope with the definition of Action. I'd say there are some upbeat/dance videos that are good Action, but if you've defined Upbeat/Dance as something more specific than Action editing, it seems odd to suggest them. Same reasoning states that Romance is nothing more than a certain focus slant on Drama... Now, the more I think about this the more the meta-discussion of genre seems a far more important topic to cover.

I'm actually doing a genre chart for a con panel now instead of eating... fuck this conversation.
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Re: Can action have any originality?

Postby TritioAFB » Sat Dec 18, 2010 8:29 pm

If you just keep pasting the clips, then it will fall in what you already said. I have the same opinion about the Action category, seems we need a revolutionary editor :)
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Re: Can action have any originality?

Postby TritioAFB » Sat Dec 18, 2010 8:31 pm

Just Curious: Godix, what can you say about Whisper of the Beast?
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Re: Can action have any originality?

Postby McDirty » Sat Dec 18, 2010 8:50 pm

lokitocatracho wrote:
Just Curious: Godix, what can you say about Whisper of the Beast?


Check out his MEP DTSEM, which has a segment that's 100x better than Whisper of the Beast.
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Re: Can action have any originality?

Postby HalOfBorg » Sat Dec 18, 2010 9:06 pm

I tried something different - a slow motion action vid. Or at least slowER motion.

OK.... so the reactions were less than stunning. I like it.
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Re: Can action have any originality?

Postby TritioAFB » Sat Dec 18, 2010 9:22 pm

Well I tried also that HalOfBorg but I was like........
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Re: Can action have any originality?

Postby TritioAFB » Sat Dec 18, 2010 9:23 pm

McDirty wrote:lokitocatracho wrote:
Just Curious: Godix, what can you say about Whisper of the Beast?


Check out his MEP DTSEM, which has a segment that's 100x better than Whisper of the Beast.


Really? Gotta see it
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Re: Can action have any originality?

Postby McDirty » Sat Dec 18, 2010 10:18 pm

godix wrote:
So I'm curious, what's the last original action video you guys have seen? What made it original. Bonus points if your reply doesn't go 'The effects were original....' And, perhaps more importantly, is it possible to make an action video that is more than beat sync and effects, or are those two things so tied up in what action is that going beyond them automatically takes you out of the genre?


Well this video is actually pretty old, so it's definitely not an action vid that i've seen recently that's original:



And yes, VicBond doesn't even classify it as action, he classifies it as drama. But to tell you in honest truth, there are a lot of action sequences in this video. And there are a lot of cuts and edits made that are usually done in a typical action vid. The main point about this vid though is the emotion that's made from both the video and the music. For a vid that uses both action and rock music, this vid does a good job at making Evangelion feel epic and emotional.

My suggestion to watching this vid, is watch this at full screen with the volume turned up. By the end of the vid, it feels pretty powerful.
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Re: Can action have any originality?

Postby Phantasmagoriat » Sat Dec 18, 2010 10:23 pm

BasharOfTheAges wrote:I guess it's all in how you want to set your scope with the definition of Action
That's the type of thing I always say, but it's so true. So if I had to attempt a working definition, I would say Action tries to cause an adrenaline rush by using content that is rooted in conflict of some sort. Let's assume Originality just means something new. Then in order to make an original action video, you can introduce new conflict.

However the conventional definition of Action is changing, and has been messed up beyond recognition, so I'm not going to go there just yet... I mean a lot of people treat Action synonymously with Fast-Sync... so by that definition, you'd have to come up with some kind of Original Fast Sync... which is just going to mess up the definition of Action even more... I'd call them Rush videos for lack of a better word.

What I'd really like to see is people start using descriptive terms to categorize videos, instead of lumping videos under umbrella terms like Action, and Drama. In many respects, AMVs are in the same boat as the Music scene was before words like Thrash, Prog, Trance, Chill-Out, etc... started to be used. Calling an amv "Action" is like calling some music "Rock."
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Re: Can action have any originality?

Postby BasharOfTheAges » Sat Dec 18, 2010 11:52 pm

That adrenaline rush, by in large, is your reaction to the precise beat sync. It's like a conditioned response. In the same manner, most of our reaction from horror movies is derived from the building tension in the music used. Hard cuts to sharp, percussive tones invokes the, almost primal, idea of action (assuming the right amount of them... too many and you're doing some sort of dance video).

EDIT - Anything that isn't focused on that intense connection between musical events and on-screen events (actions) is Drama. Violence alone != Action. Fighting alone != Action. It's how you edit, not the content. To directly address godix's question, I think we have taken original ideas in action and crafted new categories for them. Dance, Upbeat, etc. are derived from the beat-sync aspect that defines action. Question to you... given that, is still action? It was when it came out, but i'd say it's more in league with the growing category of 'upbeat.' Again, it all goes back to how narrow you want to dial back the scope.

Ultimately the VCAs here and conventions drive the labeling. There are only so many trophies that are going to get made. If the concept of original is somehow incompatible with beat-sync being a primary focus, then no, you're never going to get original action videos. Such a restriction kinda seems foolish and arbitrary though.
Last edited by BasharOfTheAges on Sun Dec 19, 2010 12:13 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Can action have any originality?

Postby 8bit_samurai » Sat Dec 18, 2010 11:53 pm

I've always thought of action to be physical drama, though instead of emotions being tossed around, it's fists and bullets and explosions and the such. In that sense, I suppose action alone is unable to have any originality, unless the fist fights, gun fights, and explosions and the sort are original in themselves. The only way I could think of having an original action video would be to mix other genres with action, i.e. action/drama, action/romance, etc. etc. so that there's a(n original) story to the video. So if there's an action video that can tell a story that hasn't been done before, I suppose it can be original. But taking the genre into consideration, most of the stories behind action (in general) is pretty simple and would most likely fall under the theme of revenge, fighting for someone else, female troubles, etc. etc. which may not be original in a broader sense if the details aren't taken into account. However, I would assume most action fans (in general) just want to be visually and audibly pleased and don't really care much for originality.
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Re: Can action have any originality?

Postby Phantasmagoriat » Sun Dec 19, 2010 2:03 am

BasharOfTheAges wrote:Anything that isn't focused on that intense connection between musical events and on-screen events (actions) is Drama
Hopefully I don't jump to conclusions here, but to modify this quote:
modified quote wrote:"Anything that is focused on that intense connection between musical events and on-screen events is Action"
If that's what you are saying, I find that a really interesting way to look at it because it makes the term Action become much broader, and really does reflect the way people conventionally categorize Action videos.

However for me, I typically find the difference between Action and Drama is presence of Physical Conflict, vs Emotional Conflict, (similar to what 8bit said above), which may or may not have intense musical connections. However, conventionally, I think people disregard the conflict and just focus on the rush generated, meaning action has been dwindled down to anything that is fast, high-motion, and has lot's of sync. People have figured out that appealing to our primal senses of sight and sound is the easiest way to tap into a physical response (ie. an adrenaline rush). Of course, viewers still need to be willing to succumb to it. There is a big difference between action videos that generate that adrenaline rush externally through the senses; vs action videos that generate the rush internally through the perception of exciting scenarios.

BasharOfTheAges wrote:is Hold me now still action?
IMO while is has some aspects of Classic Action (the sword fight), it would fit the [distorted] conventional definition of Action due to it's sync/motion-- but like you said, the emerging word Upbeat would be very appropriate, and I'm saying that's exactly why we shouldn't lump videos under umbrella terms like Action. That being said, the damage has already been done, and that video will probably always be called an action video. All I can do now, is invent new terms like I did above to distinguish it from other forms of Action. (Music has Classic Rock; AMVs can have Classic Action... and I can confidently say Hold me Now is not Classic Action)

A couple years ago, I predicted new terms would come out for the growing genres of AMVs, just like the music scene, and it's already happening. I wasn't around when Dance/Upbeat came about... but check out some of the AMVs tagged as Psychedelic on Akross which clearly don't fall into any of the typical genres [like stuff from Shepherd]. But the org is still on par with Akross in terms of creating new genres: we have Awesomecore. The question now is who's going to break for one-upmanship. okay, terrible Cold War comparison

Also:
BasharOfTheAges wrote:I'm actually doing a genre chart for a con panel now instead of eating... fuck this conversation.
I should probably resurrect this before you do too much work:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=95998&hilit=concept+map
(specifically the branch on AMV Characteristics/Traits... although that's far from complete and probably riddled with inaccuracies)
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Re: Can action have any originality?

Postby 8bit_samurai » Sun Dec 19, 2010 2:46 am

godix wrote:So I'm curious, what's the last original action video you guys have seen?

To answer this part, here are some I thought to be quite different from the usual action AMV


It's a crossover video, so I suppose it's not as original, given most crossovers I can think of falls under action (Castor's vids and Tainted Donuts come to mind), but I thought it was pretty neat.


Considering the mood of most action videos tend to be serious, one with comedic undertones is actually quite refreshing, if not original.


Another video with some comedic undertones (or possibly a comedy vid with action undertones)


Given the pace of most action videos, this one doesn't seem to be in a rush. Though I suppose the problem with this (and possibly the other vids) would be whether if they're action vids with comedy/parody undertones or if they're comedy/parody vids with action undertones. Either case, I thought they were quite original. I could probably look for more, but that would require to sort through my AMV folder, which I don't really feel like doing right now.
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Re: Can action have any originality?

Postby EvaFan » Sun Dec 19, 2010 2:54 am

Hell yeah it can.

It's by no means an amazing AMV in terms of FX, but its original / more than just beat sync. Probably why its still my most favorite action AMV to this date. Seems like these days ppl just rely on fast paced music/beat sync/eyecandy to try and give off an adrenaline rush without utilizing lyrics as well as they could or taking them way to literally. It's fun to do that once and a while though, not everything has to be original and the amvs can be really enjoyable even when they aren't.
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