Asking for trouble... or not?

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Qyot27
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Re: Asking for trouble... or not?

Post by Qyot27 » Thu Dec 16, 2010 11:06 pm

I'm sure a good case can be made for culture progression. The ones who made the rules, and possibly still make up a large, if not majority, portion of the site's audience, are those who grew up in a world where American animation was not keen on taking visual cues from Japanese animation, as evidenced by the fact that Japanese animation is called precisely that. Some - like Astro Boy, Gigantor, and Speed Racer, possibly Battle of the Planets or its G-Force reincarnation - may have been passed off as simple cartoons in the early days, but by the mid 90s (or even earlier, depending on your audience) it was often made a selling or trivia point that these shows came from Japan and were inherently different than domestic fare. They stopped trying to hide it (shows being butchered for the wrong demographic notwithstanding), and the result is that country of origin is a contributing factor to how it gets classified. By that point, kids were smart enough to know that this cartoon that looks nothing like the rest of the stuff they watch was from Japan. Regardless of whether the distributors tried to hide that or if it was openly declared to be originally Japanese.

Following from that, they see Japanese animation as a distinct entity, namely, animation from Japan - and usually at the exclusion of outsourced stuff. Being inspired by something doesn't make it the same as. The concept used to define the English usage of the term 'anime' developed long before the term 'anime' was adopted by the mainstream English fandom (when I was a kid, even up into the first part of middle school, it was far far far more common to hear it referred to as the full 'Japanese animation' term or as 'Japanimation'...only the Sci-Fi Channel used the term 'Anime' in their marketing for it, unless you asked someone involved in the early hardcore fandom - who would also never accept current anime-inspired Western animation as anime either). As far as I care to acknowledge, the only reason the back-loanword started getting used was for Western fans of such to identify with the cultural norms of the country that their shows came from, not to use the same base definition of the term that Japanese does.

I mean, if we're going to make arguments from animation style, styles change. There may be certain techniques that predominate during a certain period, but homogeneity is far from true these days. It was far from true then too. And if we want to use a superficial construction of what 'anime style' is (let's say, the 90s), SWAT Kats looks far more anime-inspired than Avatar does, right down to the explosion smoke bursts and limited animation techniques. And it's from 1993. But Western fans are most certainly not going to call SWAT Kats anime, even if the influence is so obvious that it may as well hit you over the head with a hammer.
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Re: Asking for trouble... or not?

Post by BasharOfTheAges » Fri Dec 17, 2010 11:59 am

Quin2k wrote:1. Read the definition of "Slippery Slope" before you use the term again.
I'm pretty sure it was apt as I was insinuating that by allowing violations to the "what defines anime" rule for original animation (which doesn't fit all the other guidelines), they'd run the risk of people using that precedent to argue more things be added. It was my opinion that making a single exception that contradicted the rules would lead to others having a (defend-able) logical basis to add more things in citing that decision. Since it had been spelled out before, it didn't seem necessary to do so yet again in that thread. People with the history here to speak up knew what was being implied.
Quin2k wrote:2. Learn to read the whole post (here, I'll give you the key point):
Quin2k wrote:I did not start watching Anime because it was produced in Japan, and I seriously doubt most of your members were inspired to create music videos from them based solely on the country of origin.
Ok - I'll admit that your premise wasn't entirely that "there is an anime style." Your premise is, therefore not just flawed for the reasons mentioned. It is, however, irrelevant.

I'm not going to bother to quote the rest. You're making the false assumption that this is something the powers that be actually are willing to budge on or that they have a reason to. Your arguments can be applied generically to any other content. Anything at all. Why don't we allow hentai? Wouldn't that bring in more people? How about real porn? That'd bring a whole lot more. Why not any live action stuff? (read the threads on that - same basic argument) why not make this place a new youtube? These are administration decisions that don't need to be made as questions of "does this add value?" but rather "is this who we are?"

That said, I've gotten the impression the people that contribute the majority of time and money to the site like the definitions of what's okay to upload and what's not a certain way. Maybe Vlad and/or GQ (or anyone else involved in that aspect of things) should stop by and say a few things so I'm not putting words into their mouths.
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Re: Asking for trouble... or not?

Post by wurpess » Fri Dec 17, 2010 4:01 pm

So like, I like tofu burgers. They taste like meat and are inspired by meat. And they are called a burger, and burgers are generally meat. And they're a good source of protein, like meat. And I didn't specifically come to like them because of there they come from. So you're trying to tell me that because they don't come from an animal that they aren't meat? Lies! :O

Srsly, that's kinda what I'm seeing here. The lack of change in our definition of anime isn't fear of the unknown, it's protecting principles. That is the definition the community was built on, and so that is most likely how it will stay. It keeps things simple, rather than having to deal with every show and vid on a case by case basis. That's not to say that you can't make videos with shows that WE don't define as anime. They just can't be posted here.

This all kinda reminds me of the drama that happened in the anime figure board I'm on when they decided to remove all the database entries that weren't either of a Japanese based character (like from anime, Japanese video games, Japanese historical figures, etc) or made by a Japanese based company. (So basically, a lot of Star Wars, Star Trek, western comic book, etc action figure and statues got removed.) People complained that they were still figures and were bitching because they made up most of their collection. But the fact remained that the FAQs stated that it was a community for the collection of JAPANESE BASED FIGURES. There was no reason that they couldn't continue collecting their Western figures, or that they couldn't join/start a Western figure community and list them there. They just weren't part of that particular community. And to change the rules would compromise the original intention of the site. This is very similar. The mods/admin are generally open to suggestions on how to improve the site and how things are run. But not if it compromises the intention of the site or what the community stands for.
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Re: Asking for trouble... or not?

Post by Quin2k » Sat Dec 18, 2010 2:39 pm

Sukunai wrote:I'm perfectly aware that Panty and Stalking looks a lot like Power Puff Girls. And in my view, both look like shit. South Park looks like shit too. And I couldn't care less what name they were given, nor do I want to watch them in a music video here or anywhere else.
Hahaha... to be honest, that was my impression as well. And it's probably why I had a hard time processing mirkosp's example or BasharOfTheAges' implications, because it just wouldn't happen - whether it's crappy art or hentai, they really don't make very good source material.
wurpess wrote:So like, I like tofu burgers. They taste like meat and are inspired by meat. And they are called a burger, and burgers are generally meat. And they're a good source of protein, like meat. And I didn't specifically come to like them because of there they come from. So you're trying to tell me that because they don't come from an animal that they aren't meat?
You make a good analogy.... but to finish it, you'd also have to then declare that because it isn't meat, the grocery store won't sell it. Burger joints still sell chicken and salad. An Asian market isn't going to avoid selling something simply because it's uncommon in Asia. Themes have a limit when you're trying to make a living by providing services to your community.

That said, you all make some excellent points and I thank you for them. I guess I need to reword my question, as now that I understand your community better, the rules - insofar as database and resource management - make sense. As was pointed out, I really don't need to post my sorry attempts at a music video on your database to get them online - but what about feedback?

If I were to make a music video using primarily Avatar footage, could I post a thread here to get advice and constructive criticism on art, style, timing, effects, etc. without having to worry about the thread being locked or being badgered to death because it doesn't fit within the database's guidelines?

I haven't actually made any videos yet, but since I plan to browse the knowledge that has been collected here in order to make one - it'd be nice to get some hard and detailed advice so I could improve both my own skills and the video, versus vague and random blurbs from YouTube.

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Re: Asking for trouble... or not?

Post by wurpess » Sat Dec 18, 2010 4:09 pm

Quin2k wrote:And it's probably why I had a hard time processing mirkosp's example or BasharOfTheAges' implications, because it just wouldn't happen - whether it's crappy art or hentai, they really don't make very good source material.
Anything can be good source material if you know what you're doing/are crazy enough. :twisted:

Quin2k wrote:
wurpess wrote:So like, I like tofu burgers. They taste like meat and are inspired by meat. And they are called a burger, and burgers are generally meat. And they're a good source of protein, like meat. And I didn't specifically come to like them because of there they come from. So you're trying to tell me that because they don't come from an animal that they aren't meat?
You make a good analogy.... but to finish it, you'd also have to then declare that because it isn't meat, the grocery store won't sell it. Burger joints still sell chicken and salad. An Asian market isn't going to avoid selling something simply because it's uncommon in Asia. Themes have a limit when you're trying to make a living by providing services to your community.
But there are specialty stores that do just fine specializing in 1 thing. Keeping with the previous analogy, like butcher shops. They only sell meat, and sometimes meat accessories (like spices and utensils). And they generally do fine just selling meat, because that is what people go there for. People can ask for tofu all they want and try to convince them that they could reach a whole other audience and broaden their business by selling tofu, but it probably won't happen. They are there to sell meat, and enough people go there specifically to get meat that there is no reason to compromise that. So while they might not be able to dominate the market and take over the world only selling meat, it is generally known, if you want fresh, quality meat, you go to them. ;)

Quin2k wrote:If I were to make a music video using primarily Avatar footage, could I post a thread here to get advice and constructive criticism on art, style, timing, effects, etc. without having to worry about the thread being locked or being badgered to death because it doesn't fit within the database's guidelines?

I haven't actually made any videos yet, but since I plan to browse the knowledge that has been collected here in order to make one - it'd be nice to get some hard and detailed advice so I could improve both my own skills and the video, versus vague and random blurbs from YouTube.
If you were looking to post in the forum, you couldn't put it in the announcement forum, unless you were announcing a cataloged AMV you made and put it in the same thread/post with it. But, you could go into the op exchange forum and offer ops on people's vids in exchange for feedback on your vid. Or put something in your signature about it. Another thing you could do is post a link to it in your journal and ask for feedback there. Or on your site profile. Just a couple suggestions. *^_^*

edit: Or you could probably post a thread about it in the General Discussion Forum, which has apparently just been made public. XD
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