The Org Redesign - What's wrong with the org?

Re: The Org Redesign - What's wrong with the org?

Postby Pwolf » Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:20 pm

Arigatomina wrote:The biggest problem with the chatroom is the fact that it's a chatroom. You don't know who was in there yesterday, you don't know what they talked about yesterday, you know anything you post today will be gone tomorrow. Chatrooms are a "this moment" free for all. You join, you jump into whatever conversation is going on and try to direct it to the reason you joined - your vids. If you post again tomorrow, you'll find yourself interrupting the conversation of a completely different group of people. Unless you get in there when it's empty, you'll always be the outsider butting in on someone else's conversation. A forum is a completely different venue from a chatroom and people who come looking for a forum don't want to be directed to a chatroom instead.

The chatroom is also seperate from the site. It's outside, across the street. People want their websites to have everything, all the little features they use on a dozen different sites rolled into one so they can move in and never step outside again. They want their website to be a mall with a little of everything all under the same roof. Some of these features don't belong here and really are better left to websites that focus primarily on them, or to off-topic chat in the chatroom. But when it comes to a place for editors to share their amv betas with fellow editors, that's completely ontopic and is the sort of thing the org is advertising when it draws them here. That's something they shouldn't have to go across the street from the org in order to find.

In my opinion, having new editors spam their vids in the chatroom is a great way to ensure they never come back. In the forum if they get no responses, then it's a general silence. They'll see other threads with no replies and realize they're not the only ones being ignored. When they're ignored in a chatroom it's done to their face, they see the people talking around them and take it personally. Unless they come back and lurk for days, they'll never know if this is common in that chatroom, if they just posted on a quiet day, or if it's just them getting the cold shoulder from the locals.


The people who are in the chatroom at this very second in time are most likely going to be in there 6 hours, 12 hours, 24 hours from now. Most of us keep logs and scroll up a bit to see what we missed while we were away. There's also nothing wrong with someone coming into the chatroom asking for help while we are in the middle of a conversation. It's a chatroom, we can pick up where we left off. There are side conversation starting and ending all the time. In a lot of cases users will take a conversation to PM also.

I will agree with you about the chatroom being physically separate from the org, but it's still part of the org. As I mentioned before, the chatroom is one step away from meeting and talking to editors at a con except you have the convenience of sitting at home and can also share your videos with just a click of the mouse. I'm not arguing against adding a beta test forum i'm arguing that users should use other resources that are available on the website to get help when one resource isn't working.

The last paragraph is all hypothetical and completely determined by the personality of the person. Yea, sure it's intimidating when you go into the chatroom for the first time and you see people talking and not paying attention to you. It's no different then walking into a coffee shop looking to meet new people. If you want people to notice you, you have to speak up and say something. The chatroom doesn't ignore new people, we are usually pretty observant when someone new comes in... except for Nya because he posted that log of someone who's new but has also been frequenting the chat for a few weeks now, lol. There's also no unspoken rule that says we wont talk to someone unless they've been in the chatroom for x amount of hours, that's stupid. All we expect is that you follow the rules (which means don't just come in and spam your videos).

It's kind of sad that a lot of the negativity towards the chatroom are mostly from people who i've never seen in it before. Is there something we can do that would make the chatroom more appealing and less "OMG IT'S A CHATROOM IT MUST SUCK!"? The org chat over the years, starting in the AIM chat, has been the best place on the org to meet and interact with fellow editors outside of the cons. I've personally been able to take those interactions and form actual friendships with many of those people because of the chatroom. A lot of the popular studios (RDS, CDVV, BSP, PWAXP [now BS Productions]) formed from those interactions. IMO the chatroom has done more for the org as a community and as a place to meet and form bonds with other people that share the same interests then the forum has ever done. Not to say the forum doesn't, but based on my own personal experience and what you guys have been saying. The forum is a place where you can spam your videos and come back later when someone has the answers you're looking for. You'll have to excuse me because I'm much more passionate about the chatroom because of that. So, if there's anything we can do to make the chatroom more appealing to people, share your ideas.
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Re: The Org Redesign - What's wrong with the org?

Postby gotegenks » Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:33 pm

Pwolf wrote:sorry, but i like the irc better, shut up about the forum and let's talk about something i'm interested in!

no, but rly, i can't see anything to make the chat room more appealing unless you can connect it to the Org somehow, but that's it.

if you don't like it, you don't like it. if you do, you do.

there's a lot more room for improvement on the forum side, imo.
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Re: The Org Redesign - What's wrong with the org?

Postby Pwolf » Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:37 pm

gotegenks wrote:no, but rly, i can't see anything to make the chat room more appealing unless you can connect it to the Org somehow, but that's it.


That might be possible...

Also, this thread is about all things having to do with the org. the only reason I'm talking about the chatroom is because other users like yourself have been giving me reason to. I've already said I agree with what you guys have been saying about the forum, i'm done with that topic.
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Re: The Org Redesign - What's wrong with the org?

Postby Knowname » Wed Nov 24, 2010 6:37 pm

chatrooms are bad, ya'll need to get a life lol (I know you multitask, maybe even do this at work, or on your cel phones... they make it SO easy to be an introvert these days >.<). No seriously, chatrooms are called chatrooms cuz their CHATROOMS. It's like the virtual version of a chatty teenager. I don't mess with them and I don't mess with chatrooms.

I'll make it simple. How is it that the RELEVANT stuff that goes on in irc can't be done on the forum WITHOUT any need for separating 'normal convos' with 'side convos'? You may deny that you do not participate in any 'chattiness' but you said yourself there's always a 'chat' going on in the chatroom. Maybe I just don't like 'polite talk about this and that' going on in a format that can easily annoy. Maybe we got rid of OT BECAUSE we had a chatroom. It's great! the immediate interaction actually PROMOTES what went on in the OT! It's all polite talk between responsible amv fans, how can this go wrong? Your also talking to one of probably the TOP posters in the OT :) so I'll tell you this, a chatroom does NOT substitute for an OT forum.

First reason I do not like the chatroom: We had an org comic back than based on the OT forum, it was great! I'd like to see that come out of the chatroom! It can't. or most likely won't. because chat convos are instant. boom their done. you don't have x hours between posts, you won't get this type of creativity. I will include our recent .org comic, well it's really based on the donator's forum but.
Secondly I want to ignore certain really 'chatty' individuals (like OtakuGray >.<) how can you do that in a chatroom? only by ignoring them completely at best. On the forum you can instead simply go to the threads you enjoy, for the forums I go by a thread by thread basis, not user by user. OG is a prime example, he was VERY annoying at one time. Not so much any more... or maybe I'm just ignoring all his threads. Well any way I like to ignore threads about politics and religion. That's hella hard to do in a chatroom. So for my own sanity's sake I AVOID CHATROOMS!

Ya'll need ta get a life too o.0 go... troll newegg or mlb or nfl.com or something. there's gotta be SOMETHING better to do than irc :/
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Re: The Org Redesign - What's wrong with the org?

Postby Pwolf » Wed Nov 24, 2010 6:42 pm

Knowname wrote:First reason I do not like the chatroom: We had an org comic back than based on the OT forum, it was great! I'd like to see that come out of the chatroom! It can't. or most likely won't. because chat convos are instant. boom their done. you don't have x hours between posts, you won't get this type of creativity. I will include our recent .org comic, well it's really based on the donator's forum but.


We did have something like that...
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Re: The Org Redesign - What's wrong with the org?

Postby godix » Wed Nov 24, 2010 6:56 pm

Nya-chan Production wrote:
Begi wrote:@JaddziaDax
I've tried, no one talks.

Are you one of these people?

[20:06:08] * MystykAMV (~c1e12386@synIRC-A73562C4.nejanet-puk.ektf.hu) has joined #AMV
[20:06:46] <MystykAMV> yopeople
[20:12:09] * MystykAMV (~c1e12386@synIRC-A73562C4.nejanet-puk.ektf.hu) Quit (Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout))

Just find the right time, goddamnit, the #AMV is rather chatty compared to some other channels I lurk in! I am in some channels where most of the stuff on the screen is joins/quits or locals spamming triggers. D:

Not that it matters too much, but I should point out that
A) MystykAMV joined IRC specifically to get ahold of me since I'm her Level Up 2011 partner, she wasn't looking to join the community
B) While she's new, she's a returning user who has participated in IRC more than once. This log wasn't her first, or only, time.

I know what point you're trying to make Nya, and you're right, but Mystyk actually isn't a good example of the type of user you're referencing.
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Re: The Org Redesign - What's wrong with the org?

Postby godix » Wed Nov 24, 2010 7:01 pm

Begi wrote:I personally wouldn't probably use it because I have a studio and other friends who would be willing to beta test, but I think it's something that could help.

So, you're throwing a fit over a feature that the org already has, but you don't use it and still wouldn't use it even if was moved to a new subforum to make to you happy? Riiiiiiight, I'm sure the coders will get right on that one.
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Re: The Org Redesign - What's wrong with the org?

Postby Nya-chan Production » Wed Nov 24, 2010 7:04 pm

Knowname wrote:I'll make it simple. How is it that the RELEVANT stuff that goes on in irc can't be done on the forum WITHOUT any need for separating 'normal convos' with 'side convos'? You may deny that you do not participate in any 'chattiness' but you said yourself there's always a 'chat' going on in the chatroom. Maybe I just don't like 'polite talk about this and that' going on in a format that can easily annoy. Maybe we got rid of OT BECAUSE we had a chatroom. It's great! the immediate interaction actually PROMOTES what went on in the OT! It's all polite talk between responsible amv fans, how can this go wrong? Your also talking to one of probably the TOP posters in the OT :) so I'll tell you this, a chatroom does NOT substitute for an OT forum.

Knowname replied himself wrote:chat convos are instant. boom they're done. you don't have x hours between posts


Knowname wrote:First reason I do not like the chatroom: We had an org comic back than based on the OT forum, it was great! I'd like to see that come out of the chatroom! It can't. or most likely won't. because chat convos are instant. boom their done. you don't have x hours between posts, you won't get this type of creativity. I will include our recent .org comic, well it's really based on the donator's forum but.

Connecting the chat and the comic isn't really going to work, mainly because:
- the comic ended up mainly because L.Fist lost his attention to forums
- you CAN do comic by IRC convos. I probably could whip out a new one every two days or so just from the logs. And yes, most of them would include godix.
- IRC channel spurred a lot of creative moments, or even long-lasting things - for one I will just shamelessly name my b-day MEP, which I would NEVER get without it (and I still consider it a pretty accurate parody on myself with GREAT credits)

Knowname wrote:Secondly I want to ignore certain really 'chatty' individuals (like OtakuGray >.<) how can you do that in a chatroom? only by ignoring them completely at best. On the forum you can instead simply go to the threads you enjoy, for the forums I go by a thread by thread basis, not user by user. OG is a prime example, he was VERY annoying at one time. Not so much any more... or maybe I'm just ignoring all his threads. Well any way I like to ignore threads about politics and religion. That's hella hard to do in a chatroom. So for my own sanity's sake I AVOID CHATROOMS!

... okay, if you can't ignore a line from someone, then it's YOUR problem, not the chatroom's. You were just not born to chat with other people. We all had Hacchin's rants in the channel, Kio can be obnoxious at times, godix has sexist remarks... and?
Take it easier, man.

Knowname wrote:Ya'll need ta get a life too o.0 go... troll newegg or mlb or nfl.com or something. there's gotta be SOMETHING better to do than irc :/

This isn't about trolling, but socializing, so you're gripping it from the totally wrong side.

And, 'lo and behold, there IS something better than IRC.

Meeting in real life, chatting in real life and then, as we are AMV editors, probably crazy editing together.
But we don't have money for that, most of the time, so we just chat, sorry ;x
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Re: The Org Redesign - What's wrong with the org?

Postby Nya-chan Production » Wed Nov 24, 2010 7:06 pm

godix wrote:
Nya-chan Production wrote:
Begi wrote:@JaddziaDax
I've tried, no one talks.

Are you one of these people?

[20:06:08] * MystykAMV (~c1e12386@synIRC-A73562C4.nejanet-puk.ektf.hu) has joined #AMV
[20:06:46] <MystykAMV> yopeople
[20:12:09] * MystykAMV (~c1e12386@synIRC-A73562C4.nejanet-puk.ektf.hu) Quit (Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout))

Just find the right time, goddamnit, the #AMV is rather chatty compared to some other channels I lurk in! I am in some channels where most of the stuff on the screen is joins/quits or locals spamming triggers. D:

Not that it matters too much, but I should point out that
A) MystykAMV joined IRC specifically to get ahold of me since I'm her Level Up 2011 partner, she wasn't looking to join the community
B) While she's new, she's a returning user who has participated in IRC more than once. This log wasn't her first, or only, time.

I know what point you're trying to make Nya, and you're right, but Mystyk actually isn't a good example of the type of user you're referencing.

I know, I am sorry to Mystyk for anyone confused - it was just generalizing and I grabbed the first example of quick "Join/Quit" behaviour I had ^^;;
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Re: The Org Redesign - What's wrong with the org?

Postby Arigatomina » Wed Nov 24, 2010 7:07 pm

Pwolf wrote:Most of us keep logs and scroll up a bit to see what we missed while we were away.

That's fine for the people who keep logs. It doesn't help a first time visitor to that chatroom or someone who doesn't what logs are or how to keep them.

I'm not arguing against adding a beta test forum i'm arguing that users should use other resources that are available on the website to get help when one resource isn't working.

I know. I'm just giving some reasons, besides "it's stupid" and "it's dead," why some people don't like chatrooms and won't want to use the org's chatroom to share their betas. You said you hadn't heard any other reasons. I gave some. Because it's a chatroom and some people hate instant messaging, let alone chatting. Because when people talk around you in a chatroom it's a lot more personal and troubling than when you get no responses in a forum. Because it's not part of the forum or the main page, you have to open up something else in order to access it [tie this into the "kids these days don't like ftp because they know they don't have to use it on 'more modern' sites" stance in the upload argument.]

It's kind of sad that a lot of the negativity towards the chatroom are mostly from people who i've never seen in it before.

I haven't been in there in years because I haven't been frequenting the org in years. When the new chatroom tried to replace the old one, I refused to move on principle. Then there was a forum crash years back and I spent the next few months popping into the new one because it seemed like everyone else was popping in there. I was in there off and on for a while. I didn't like it. But, then, I don't like chatrooms in general. I hate instant messages, and I'll only talk to friends in a chatroom if there's simply no other place for us to talk. I did that with the aim chatroom after they killed the OT section. When they tried to kill the aim chatroom, I didn't see any point trying again in the new one because I honestly never thought it would last as long as it has.

Is there something we can do that would make the chatroom more appealing and less "OMG IT'S A CHATROOM IT MUST SUCK!"?

I don't think so. People who don't like chatrooms aren't going to like this one no matter what changes you make to it. I used to love the old aim chatroom because of the people who frequented it, but I already knew them all from the forum. It wasn't a place to meet people, it was just an OT place for us forumers to talk about non-org stuff. When the forum had an OT section, we chatted there instead. That crowd didn't relocate to the new chatroom, they just left altogether, and I don't like chatrooms in general enough to go into the new one now to see if it's changed over the years. Back when I was lurking and checking into the new one, I got the strong impression the people in there didn't want to talk about org topics. It was like hanging out in the breakroom at work - no one wants to talk about work when they're not working. If org members want to talk shop, there's a whole forum for that.

Some people, like me, dislike chatrooms because they are chatrooms. There's nothing you can do about that (in my opinion). Chatrooms are useless when they're empty and chaotic when they're full. Everything I like about forums is thrown out the window in chatrooms. Instead of everyone talking about the same topics (like you'd find in a thread), it was a dozen mini-conversations going on at once, a few people trying to take part in *all* of the mini conversations so you don't know who they're talking to unless they remember to put a @ before their line, and then they pop offline at random and sometimes they don't come back in so the conversation just cuts off halfway through. Messy and incoherent and not pleasant - and that's just when they type in full sentences and I can actually *read* the posts. That's not even counting the annoyance of being talked around, and feeling guilty for interrupting people. I prefer forums. I can jump into this thread knowing that the last person who posted may not post again until tomorrow, and even if he is typing his next post the same time as I am, it doesn't matter because we have quotes to show who we're talking to and plenty of time to read over the posts we've missed and stay current with all the little mini-conversations that may be going on.

IMO the chatroom has done more for the org as a community and as a place to meet and form bonds with other people that share the same interests then the forum has ever done.

That's the because the forum lacks an OT section. If it still had one, people would still be forming bonds in there instead of in the chatroom. The chatroom is necessary because it's making up for something the forum lacks. If the forum were improved to fill that void, the chatroom wouldn't be needed anymore. So which would be harder in the longrun? Changing the chatroom so it's less like a chatroom and more like a forum so people will use it instead of asking for more sections in the forum? Or adding more sections to the forum so it covers the topics currently only discussed in the chatroom?

I vote for option C. Leave it alone. The chatroom isn't broken, and the forum doesn't need a new section for people to post their vids and not get replies. You have to bend people's arms back just to get them to watch a finished amv. Are there really enough people here willing to watch and comment on betas for the org to make an entire section devoted to them?
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Re: The Org Redesign - What's wrong with the org?

Postby Pwolf » Wed Nov 24, 2010 7:09 pm

Nya-chan Production wrote:But we don't have money for that, most of the time, so we just chat, sorry ;x


I think its more like we have lives outside of the org (and the irc chat for that matter) and can't just drop our responsibilities to drive or fly out to meet people in person.
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Re: The Org Redesign - What's wrong with the org?

Postby Nya-chan Production » Wed Nov 24, 2010 7:13 pm

Arigatomina wrote:That's the because the forum lacks an OT section. If it still had one, people would still be forming bonds in there instead of in the chatroom. The chatroom is necessary because it's making up for something the forum lacks. If the forum were improved to fill that void, the chatroom wouldn't be needed anymore. So which would be harder in the longrun? Changing the chatroom so it's less like a chatroom and more like a forum so people will use it instead of asking for more sections in the forum? Or adding more sections to the forum so it covers the topics currently only discussed in the chatroom?

Fun fact: Most of the active people in the IRC chat have access to donator's forums ;x
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Re: The Org Redesign - What's wrong with the org?

Postby Corran » Wed Nov 24, 2010 7:30 pm

What is wrong with the opinion forum? For what reason do we need yet another forum to represent essentially the same thing? There is a thread in the opinion forum that clearly indicates that beta's are fair game. Do beta's need to be explicitly mentioned in the forum's description to get the point across?

I think adding more and more forums will just make the forum to appear less active if current activity levels remain the same. In my experience with studio websites, the larger the forum, the faster it stagnated because the forum activity was spread so thin.

RE: IRC Chat
I would really like to see an IRC bot that logged the chats to the org's database. Then users could perform fulltext searches of the logs and read the recent conversations online at their leisure. The org could also include the last ten lines or so on the member's main page with a link to join in on the discussion via the synirc web interface. You could also do the same with recent forum posts.

I think this would go well with Zarxrax's tabbed members main mockup: viewtopic.php?p=1352633#p1352633 (He already has a tab for forum posts)

Additionally, perhaps such an IRC bot could perform org related utilities, such as providing information similar to the vidid bbcode on the forum.
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Re: The Org Redesign - What's wrong with the org?

Postby Pwolf » Wed Nov 24, 2010 7:34 pm

Arigatomina wrote:Some people, like me, dislike chatrooms because they are chatrooms.


I completely agree. Some people don't like instant messaging and the such. I'm fine with that. My original argument was against the idea that the chatroom isn't helpful. when I challenged that argument all i got was vague answers and "it's stupid". Thanks for your indepth and civil reply.

The forum is great and has it's importance, i don't deny it. But the chatroom is a good resource for people when they need help. I'm not saying we need more people to frequent the chat. I'm saying if you have a question, go the chatroom, you might get a faster answer then using the forum. We had someone who came in earlier today who couldn't post on the forum. They were taken care of immediately. Most of the mods and some admins are in the chat. After your question has been answer, leave, you don't have to stick around. come back later when you need help again, or don't.

The chatroom has never been an alternative to OT. While it has filled that void for some of us, the chatroom wouldn't change if there was a public OT forum. Most of the people in the chatroom today are donators and have access to the existing OT forum already.
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Re: The Org Redesign - What's wrong with the org?

Postby Pwolf » Wed Nov 24, 2010 7:42 pm

Corran wrote:Additionally, perhaps such an IRC bot could perform org related utilities, such as providing information similar to the vidid bbcode on the forum.


PimpWolf makes his return?!
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