The Org Redesign - Functions - Improving the Upload Process

Re: The Org Redesign - Functions - Improving the Upload Process

Postby Pwolf » Tue Nov 09, 2010 12:23 am

uhg...

Come on guys! this is bull shit! Noor is trying to figure out another way OTHER THEN FTP to upload videos. Does it really matter how she said it? who the fuck cares if FTP is RFC4273648273469823... This is the day and age of one click does all. why can't we ditch FTP? why can't we adopt a way to upload from the video submit page? If the idea is to make the video upload and submition processes easier, why not eliminate a 3rd party program from the list of steps? Why should someone who's never used FTP come to the website just to figure out how to upload via a guide hidden somewhere else on the site? they'll just go to youtube.

What use FTP over something else? stop bitching at eachother and be helpful god damnit!
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Re: The Org Redesign - Functions - Improving the Upload Process

Postby ngsilver » Tue Nov 09, 2010 12:27 am

TBH, I get more questions about what FTP is and how it is supposed to be used for both Youmacon and ACEN then I get actual questions about rules or regulations or even how to use the entry system I created. As much as I love FTP and have been using it since the early 90s when I first started developing for the web and still use it for web as well as for transferring files between my PCs (FTP is better at maxing out my internal bandwidth then window's copy/paste) I think it is a valid point that for some reason FTP seems foreign for newcomers.

For ACEN and Youmacon I provide a very simple step by step guide for how to upload a video. I include in the instructions where to find a version of pwolftp since it is the easiest FTP system I've seen. I provide the credentials as well as the quick ftp link for people to simply copy/paste into pwolftp and even go so far to describe how to find a file on the user's PC. In the end, since I started doing this, I have had very few questions about how to upload a file and more about wondering what exactly FTP is.

I know we have upload guides, but perhaps the best way to go about things is to simplify the upload information page and to also add instructions for using FTP programs during the upload process. Such as when we go to request an upload there is a list of instructions, then when we get the credentials there is a list of instructions including links to popular FTP clients which also include instructions on how to use them, and so on and so forth. By including simple, concise, and accurate instructions during the upload process it can help make things both easier and teach at the same time. After all, the 'generation' we're really dealing with here is the generation of tl;dr. It's not that they're not willing to learn or be taught, they just want the info NOW.

Finally, I don't really think we need to move away from using FTP for uploading videos. However, perhaps some site integration would be beneficial. There are up loaders(scripts) available that will upload a file given to them over FTP that could be integrated into our upload system. Or one could be written specifically for the site. It would be a similar idea to the upload button on youtube, but we wouldn't have to change anything on our normal upload process, just provide a web based client on the upload page for users to use. It's something I've been toying with building myself for my contest entry system as I start moving it off my webserver and onto a dedicated local server that I can have more control over.
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Re: The Org Redesign - Functions - Improving the Upload Process

Postby Panky » Tue Nov 09, 2010 12:42 am

Wow really? Such a big discussion out from such a simple matter? Seriously Nya, you dont actually *need* to know any of FTP to create a html webpage, granted that it's only an uploading task. Giving it a use or not doesn't change that fact. I can imagine that most teachers would skip the FTP process though, when learning HTML it's not necessary. Don't take any harm from this I am saying cause I know what you mean, but it also has its flaws to it.

And also I don't know why you are having so many problems with the word "standard" when you know littleatari meant that in most stream sites there is a help (call it that way if you don't want to call it standard) which is web upload instead of FTP. FTP doesn't suck, and isn't that hard to use either, but in most cases people have to download a program (or plugin if you have Firefox) and have to learn their way around it to make it work, if it doesn't break down in some part. It's not that internet users are dumb, but they all aren't programmers/computer savvy, and with more and more advances in the programming languages things can be made easier to the user side, like what most webs have been doing until now. Saying that the site should leave this as a "filter" shows this like some rock in the path for new users. Why should they be bad editors because they don't go through this? So, a change like this in the upload process isn't mandatory at all, but would be a nice change for those that would use it. If you still would want to upload via FTP, you should be able to do so.

Arigatomina wrote:
BasharOfTheAges wrote:I argue, suffering the fools is as sure of a path to demise than accepting them as they are. They certainly can't survive actually participating in the hobby without some degree of desire or at least willingness to learn. The inability to search for a simple answer to a question on google should raise some red flags somewhere, shouldn't it? At some point it becomes unfair to them to not send the wake up call.

Personally, I thank the org for forcing me to learn and use FTP. I use it all the time now. I feel sorry for the people I talk to who've never even heard of it. It's a little complicated to learn, but once you learn it actually using it is quick and easy. It makes so many things so much easier. They don't know what they're missing. It's sad.


Seriously? It either isn't that hard to learn, nor something a video editor would really "miss" if they didn't go through it. I'm actually wondering if you were serious with this or it was just sarcasm.
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Re: The Org Redesign - Functions - Improving the Upload Process

Postby Pwolf » Tue Nov 09, 2010 12:49 am

ngsilver wrote:Finally, I don't really think we need to move away from using FTP for uploading videos.


I don't think we have to also... Implementing a flash based system or some other upload method built into the site will create a lot of extra work for the coders. I've also made a very simple to use FTP program that requires only 3 steps to use... how much simpler can it get when it comes to FTP? I'm fine with sticking with FTP but we should adapt a process instead of leaving it to the uploader to figure out.
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Re: The Org Redesign - Functions - Improving the Upload Process

Postby Corran » Tue Nov 09, 2010 12:59 am

Pwolf wrote:Implementing a flash based system or some other upload method built into the site will create a lot of extra work for the coders.

Here is a jquery/flash based way to upload files pre-built and ready for implementation:

http://www.uploadify.com/

The only real challenge would be figuring out how to get the file from the uploaded folder to it's final location. (More than just moving a file. Stuff in the database needs to be updated) Perhaps the org could just use the existing mechanisms and automate the ftp stuff once it has the file.
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Re: The Org Redesign - Functions - Improving the Upload Process

Postby Arigatomina » Tue Nov 09, 2010 1:22 am

Panky wrote:Seriously? It either isn't that hard to learn, nor something a video editor would really "miss" if they didn't go through it. I'm actually wondering if you were serious with this or it was just sarcasm.

I was entirely serious. It's not hard to learn, it's just a little complicated. You have to read something and follow some steps to use it the first time. You have to remember what steps you followed (or read the guide again) the second time you use it and maybe even the third time. It's more complicated than clicking a button. But it's really useful and I think its usefulness makes it worth learning. I know editors don't *have* to send amvs to people anymore since it's mostly streaming now, and they probably won't *have* to upload files to their own websites since they have livejournal and free host links for that sort of thing. But if they ever want to participate in a contest that doesn't have a 'mail in' option, then ftp is a good thing to know. Useful. In my opinion it's more complicated to burn your first dvdr/cdr/vcd than it is to use ftp for the first time in order to send a vid to a contest. If they ever want to collaborate with someone who uses ftp, it would be much quicker to pass the file back and forth via ftp than to have a dozen megaupload links. So, yeah, I seriously honestly think ftp is worth learning and that it's a shame so many people will never even know what it is. Most of them won't ever need it, but if they had it, I'm sure some of them would use it and consider it as useful and convenient as I do.

The org can get rid of it for all I care, though. I'm not like...loyal to ftp or anything. ^^; One button click would be easier for me as well as all the people who don't know about ftp. Just as long as there aren't a lot of time-outs and an inability to resume the file with the new one-button-click system. As a former dialup user, the resume function of ftp is its best feature. I've had to restart the upload of the same stupid little 40mb file to the tube five times in a row once because my connection kept timing out due to the uber-slow transfer rate. I'd hate for anyone to have to do that here on the org.
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Re: The Org Redesign - Functions - Improving the Upload Process

Postby MycathatesyouAMV » Tue Nov 09, 2010 1:43 am

If we mistakingly click the effects/lip sync check boxes when we didn't want to, there should be an option to go back and turn it off.
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Re: The Org Redesign - Functions - Improving the Upload Process

Postby godix » Tue Nov 09, 2010 1:44 am

There's a point where I have to ask, is this *REALLY* a priority? Honestly? It seems we've gone from talking about the general goal of the redesign and straight into a wishlist of inconsequential features. Of all the things the re-design should focus on, making the org operate just like the tube does, uploading and all, shouldn't really be high on the list.
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Re: The Org Redesign - Functions - Improving the Upload Process

Postby Bauzi » Tue Nov 09, 2010 5:07 am

BasharOfTheAges wrote:@Arigatomina - as a technical hobby, there's every right for us to have a bare minimum of technical understanding to get shit done, no? I mean, hell... these people need to be able to use pretty complicated editing software and DVD rippers and whatnot. I argue, suffering the fools is as sure of a path to demise than accepting them as they are. They certainly can't survive actually participating in the hobby without some degree of desire or at least willingness to learn. The inability to search for a simple answer to a question on google should raise some red flags somewhere, shouldn't it? At some point it becomes unfair to them to not send the wake up call.

The FTP stuff is nothing more than a filter. So do we want more people comeing to this site or do we want to keep certain people away?

A more accessible upload process will result in more website users. That's probably a fact.

I say: Ditch ftp. As far as I remember the org doesn't want to keep out bad videos, right?
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Re: The Org Redesign - Functions - Improving the Upload Process

Postby Nya-chan Production » Tue Nov 09, 2010 5:45 am

Bauzi wrote:
BasharOfTheAges wrote:@Arigatomina - as a technical hobby, there's every right for us to have a bare minimum of technical understanding to get shit done, no? I mean, hell... these people need to be able to use pretty complicated editing software and DVD rippers and whatnot. I argue, suffering the fools is as sure of a path to demise than accepting them as they are. They certainly can't survive actually participating in the hobby without some degree of desire or at least willingness to learn. The inability to search for a simple answer to a question on google should raise some red flags somewhere, shouldn't it? At some point it becomes unfair to them to not send the wake up call.

The FTP stuff is nothing more than a filter. So do we want more people comeing to this site or do we want to keep certain people away?

A more accessible upload process will result in more website users. That's probably a fact.

I say: Ditch ftp. As far as I remember the org doesn't want to keep out bad videos, right?

I am not against this, in fact. I was only arguing with the part that says that FTP alienates users and uploads ;x Why hide behind "FTP is bad" when you can say "Let's just let anyone to upload their Naruto x LP vidya here!"

Also remember that you (and me too) will probably pay for the new storage when this stuff fills up the current one.
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Re: The Org Redesign - Functions - Improving the Upload Process

Postby Bauzi » Tue Nov 09, 2010 5:56 am

It's not up to me to make this decision. I just want to point out that there can be a big problem with the new goal of a-m-v.org.
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Re: The Org Redesign - Functions - Improving the Upload Process

Postby Corran » Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:17 am

Nya-chan Production wrote:I am not against this, in fact. I was only arguing with the part that says that FTP alienates users and uploads ;x Why hide behind "FTP is bad" when you can say "Let's just let anyone to upload their Naruto x LP vidya here!"

Editing Skills != FTP Skills

An editor who choses not to upload because of having to learn yet another (and increasing esoteric) piece of internet technology may do so because they have decided that uploading here is not worth the hassle when other sites have easier upload methods. Note that this is a different mindset and type of user than the one that thinks "omg, it's too hard!" (a.k.a. "How the hell did they open their video editor in the first place" users.)

Nya-chan Production wrote:Also remember that you (and me too) will probably pay for the new storage when this stuff fills up the current one.

Not sure what you are implying here... Are you suggesting that no new users would donate and the current members alone would have to foot the bill for leeches? Or if considered with your "Naruto x LP vidya" quote, are you suggesting that more videos by future, currently non-existent users drawn here by the ease of uploading would be shit, not worth hosting, and thus taking up unnecessary space?
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Re: The Org Redesign - Functions - Improving the Upload Process

Postby Nya-chan Production » Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:52 am

Corran wrote:
Nya-chan Production wrote:I am not against this, in fact. I was only arguing with the part that says that FTP alienates users and uploads ;x Why hide behind "FTP is bad" when you can say "Let's just let anyone to upload their Naruto x LP vidya here!"

Editing Skills != FTP Skills

An editor who choses not to upload because of having to learn yet another (and increasing esoteric) piece of internet technology may do so because they have decided that uploading here is not worth the hassle when other sites have easier upload methods. Note that this is a different mindset and type of user than the one that thinks "omg, it's too hard!" (a.k.a. "How the hell did they open their video editor in the first place" users.)

I see, that might indeed be true :<

Corran wrote:
Nya-chan Production wrote:Also remember that you (and me too) will probably pay for the new storage when this stuff fills up the current one.

Not sure what you are implying here... Are you suggesting that no new users would donate and the current members alone would have to foot the bill for leeches? Or if considered with your "Naruto x LP vidya" quote, are you suggesting that more videos by future, currently non-existent users drawn here by the ease of uploading would be shit, not worth hosting, and thus taking up unnecessary space?

It's a general rule that the donations are mostly done by people who are longer on the site, use the advantages and want to keep them, though there are surely exceptions. Of course I have thought about increased donation flow, it's only a matter of ratio donations/uploaded data.
And yes, I am afraid that too many bad (mainly in: badly encoded) videos will take up the storage once the uploading is done via "click here". I have browsed YouTube and there are MANY of them (with their 2GB/15minutes ratio it's no surprise - you can basically upload a lossless there and no-one would notice). We have the advantage of not deleting AMVs, so people WILL come here. And we don't have Google's funds for storage space.
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Re: The Org Redesign - Functions - Improving the Upload Process

Postby OropherZero » Tue Nov 09, 2010 12:15 pm

vids on .org are relatively small. Let's just just HTTP $_POST in PHP who cares if the FTP is more suited as a file sending protocol =\ That way we can just one click submit. FTP shouldn't be external to the site, yes people can read guides, but really who will want to when they know that other sites offer one click by principle?
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Re: The Org Redesign - Functions - Improving the Upload Process

Postby Corran » Tue Nov 09, 2010 12:24 pm

Nya-chan wrote:And yes, I am afraid that too many bad (mainly in: badly encoded) videos will take up the storage once the uploading is done via "click here".

You could still enforce upload limits on filesize in a non ftp system.
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