The Org Redesign - Functions - Improving the Upload Process

Re: The Org Redesign - Functions - Improving the Upload Process

Postby Nya-chan Production » Mon Nov 08, 2010 9:38 pm

LittleAtari wrote:
Nya-chan Production wrote:So because people can't select a file from their system and copypaste a text we provide them we have to conform to non-standard solutions?

No it is because people dont feel like having to download a WHOLE other program to upload a video using a method that they don't have to use on other video sites they visit. Please guys, don't try to act like an upload system were you press a button, browse for the file, select it is not a standard SOMEWHERE in the world. I mean go to a college campus and ask all the students about FTP even with in the media and technical schools and more than half of them probably wont be able to tell you enough about them. I can't tell you how many times I've wanted to use FTP for a school collaboration project and no body knows what the heck it is. THAT is the generation we are faced with today. These are the same kids uploading the videos to sites like youtube. The fact is, being able to use an upload system similar to youtube is a lot simpler and puts a lot less strain and work on the user side.

EDIT: I've walked new editors through the upload system of the Org. That's when I've realized just how much of a pain it is. I was so used to the system, but the fact that people have to be TAUGHT how to upload says that something is wrong there.

You know you can upload it via Windows Explorer, right?
Btw, learning this should be the basics on the internet. If you don't know how to upload you should learn it.

And one more thing about easiness and standards - why not make the site completely in Flash? It's easy and it's colourful and it's nice. Of course it's not standard and if it doesn't load it doesn't load complete, but whatever ;x
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Re: The Org Redesign - Functions - Improving the Upload Process

Postby LittleAtari » Mon Nov 08, 2010 9:44 pm

Nya-chan Production wrote:Btw, learning this should be the basics on the internet. If you don't know how to upload you should learn it.

Why should it be the basics whenever I go to upload something on the internet, be it for school, facebook, youtube, or photobucket, I have never seen FTP. The only site that I upload files to that forces FTP on its users is the Org. O wait, I just thought of one site where I could use FTP, it was when I was making a website for my webdesign class back in highschool and actually, it was still an option there and not mandatory. I was still allowed to upload individual HTML files, which at the time, i think i ended up doing because my teacher didn't teach us how to use FTP in our INTERNET class.

EDIT: Looking back on that HTML class project, yes it wasnt efficient to not use FTP, but point is: you didnt even need FTP to make a website.


EDIT 2: To make it clear, being a part of this site for around 6 years (previous account included). I wont being using FTP for most of my uploads if the Org makes the upload process similar to YouTube. It's just faster for me than to have to enter a video, request FTP, grab link, open Filezilla, Drop file in, and confirm upload.
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Re: The Org Redesign - Functions - Improving the Upload Process

Postby BasharOfTheAges » Mon Nov 08, 2010 9:49 pm

I'll agree that it acts as a filter and will stand by that not being a bad thing. As a contest coordinator who uses an FTP upload mechanism for submissions (as just about every reputable contest does), I've noticed a pretty strong correlation between the people that are unable or unwilling to learn how to use FTP and their seeming inability or unwillingness to learn how to use other pieces of software, like, for instance, a DVD ripper, tools to clean their footage, or their editing software in general. Several other people that run fairly large contests have admitted (to me) having noticed the same correlation when asked.
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Re: The Org Redesign - Functions - Improving the Upload Process

Postby Nya-chan Production » Mon Nov 08, 2010 9:53 pm

LittleAtari wrote:because my teacher didn't teach us how to use FTP in our INTERNET class.

EDIT: Looking back on that HTML class project, yes it wasnt efficient to not use FTP, but point is: you didnt even need FTP to make a website.

I think your teacher fails, if he does FTP for you - you can't do literally anything considering web sites and uploads without it. Heck I have at least three things that can do FTP on my PC (FileZilla, pwolFTP, Total Commander) and I know of a few sites that I can upload FTP with which are web-based.
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Re: The Org Redesign - Functions - Improving the Upload Process

Postby LittleAtari » Mon Nov 08, 2010 9:53 pm

BasharOfTheAges wrote:I'll agree that it acts as a filter and will stand by that not being a bad thing. As a contest coordinator who uses an FTP upload mechanism for submissions (as just about every reputable contest does), I've noticed a pretty strong correlation between the people that are unable or unwilling to learn how to use FTP and their seeming inability or unwillingness to lean how to use other pieces of software, like their editing software. Several other people that run fairly large contests have admitted (to me) having noticed the same correlation when asked.

Yep and that the point, we shouldnt be filtering WHO uploads here because we have some standard of quality here. I dont believe in the Org's videos being of a superior quality to the Youtube community. I've actually watched way more AMVs on Youtube this Year than on the Org. I know that for a fact. I like a lot of the videos I see and honestly, I'm not sure if we should put someone down for being frustrated with FTP and thinking it's stupid if they've never seen it before. They don't understand it and are never forced to deal with it. For now, the Cons can do their own thing, but we're the Org.

Nya-chan Production wrote:
LittleAtari wrote:because my teacher didn't teach us how to use FTP in our INTERNET class.

EDIT: Looking back on that HTML class project, yes it wasnt efficient to not use FTP, but point is: you didnt even need FTP to make a website.

I think your teacher fails, if he does FTP for you - you can't do literally anything considering web sites and uploads without it. Heck I have at least three things that can do FTP on my PC (FileZilla, pwolFTP, Total Commander) and I know of a few sites that I can upload FTP with which are web-based.

Do you want me to name for you how many programs are out there that all meant to do the same task? Do you really need three FTP clients? It doesnt matter how widely available the clients are. It matters how often you have to use them.

Also, besides the Org, name the sites that you use FTP on and for what use.

Also, I learned a lot from my HTML class, thank you. I learned HTML in it, not FTP. Granted, it would've been nice to know, but when the students final is to just get a 5 page website up on the nets, it's not all that necessary. For me, it was a big deal because i had like 20+ pages with God knows how many images :cry:
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Re: The Org Redesign - Functions - Improving the Upload Process

Postby BasharOfTheAges » Mon Nov 08, 2010 9:57 pm

You're entitled to your opinion, but I respectfully disagree. It's a bar, but it's a pretty low one.

Think of it as an 'are you capable of using google' style catchpa.
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Re: The Org Redesign - Functions - Improving the Upload Process

Postby LittleAtari » Mon Nov 08, 2010 9:59 pm

BasharOfTheAges wrote:You're entitled to your opinion, but I respectfully disagree. It's a bar, but it's a pretty low one.

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Re: The Org Redesign - Functions - Improving the Upload Process

Postby Arigatomina » Mon Nov 08, 2010 10:03 pm

LittleAtari wrote:...no body knows what the heck it is. THAT is the generation we are faced with today.

This should be repeated over and over in every one of these improvement threads. If we're targetting this generation, we have to accept the fact that they're different from us. If we want them to come to us, we have to conform to them - not the other way around. It's this "let them learn if they want in" attitude that keeps them out. If you want to stick with that attitude, then there's no point inviting them in. This is like listening to old people lecture kids about how handwritten letters are better than emails and text messages, and then they complain that the kids don't keep in touch with them anymore. I wonder why. :roll:

Just to second the point LittleAtari is making here, I've also encountered the "what's FTP??" problem. My other hobby involves transferring large files and the people I'm talking to would rather send them by email, one 10mb attachment per email, for 10+ emails, than try to learn this mysterious and complicated FTP thing. These are people who consider megaupload too difficult to use. Think about that for a minute. It's embarrassing and frustrating, but that's the trend the net is moving toward and you have to accept that. If you really want what these people have to offer (their amvs), then you'll have to take it however they're willing to get it to you. That means easy and simple and no outside programs or guides.

If you aren't willing to cater to them, that's fine. Say so and we can stop pretending we're willing to lower our requirements in order to get them back into the org fold.
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Re: The Org Redesign - Functions - Improving the Upload Process

Postby BasharOfTheAges » Mon Nov 08, 2010 10:11 pm

@Arigatomina - as a technical hobby, there's every right for us to have a bare minimum of technical understanding to get shit done, no? I mean, hell... these people need to be able to use pretty complicated editing software and DVD rippers and whatnot. I argue, suffering the fools is as sure of a path to demise than accepting them as they are. They certainly can't survive actually participating in the hobby without some degree of desire or at least willingness to learn. The inability to search for a simple answer to a question on google should raise some red flags somewhere, shouldn't it? At some point it becomes unfair to them to not send the wake up call.
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Re: The Org Redesign - Functions - Improving the Upload Process

Postby Nya-chan Production » Mon Nov 08, 2010 10:19 pm

LittleAtari wrote:
Nya-chan Production wrote:
LittleAtari wrote:because my teacher didn't teach us how to use FTP in our INTERNET class.

EDIT: Looking back on that HTML class project, yes it wasnt efficient to not use FTP, but point is: you didnt even need FTP to make a website.

I think your teacher fails, if he does FTP for you - you can't do literally anything considering web sites and uploads without it. Heck I have at least three things that can do FTP on my PC (FileZilla, pwolFTP, Total Commander) and I know of a few sites that I can upload FTP with which are web-based.

Do you want me to name for you how many programs are out there that all meant to do the same task? Do you really need three FTP clients? It doesnt matter how widely available the clients are. It matters how often you have to use them.

Also, besides the Org, name the sites that you use FTP on and for what use.

Also, I learned a lot from my HTML class, thank you. I learned HTML in it, not FTP. Granted, it would've been nice to know, but when the students final is to just get a 5 page website up on the nets, it's not all that necessary. For me, it was a big deal because i had like 20+ pages with God knows how many images :cry:


1) No, I don't - I need only two, because FileZilla has nicer SSH and Total Commander has file browsing. pwolFTP I have for testing reasons, but for a newbie on org it would be the easiest solution. I use FTP or similar things about weekly, if not more - mainly for developing sites.

2) This is more personal, so we should cut it out, but let me ask you two things - if you wrote a HTML page now and you wouldn't know about FTP, what would you do? Look at the nice HTML code in your PC? And number of pages and images isn't really telling anything, advanced programmers can write you a short code that will generate you countless pages with pictures (think danbooru system without tags). The problem here is standard, so I should rather ask whether your pages were W3C compliant and whether they showed correctly on most browsers. In bussiness I would also ask about SEO.

For point 2 I'd welcome an answer in the PM rather than here ^^
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Re: The Org Redesign - Functions - Improving the Upload Process

Postby LittleAtari » Mon Nov 08, 2010 10:27 pm

Nya-chan Production wrote:1) No, I don't - I need only two, because FileZilla has nicer SSH and Total Commander has file browsing. pwolFTP I have for testing reasons, but for a newbie on org it would be the easiest solution. I use FTP or similar things about weekly, if not more - mainly for developing sites.

2) This is more personal, so we should cut it out, but let me ask you two things - if you wrote a HTML page now and you wouldn't know about FTP, what would you do? Look at the nice HTML code in your PC? And number of pages and images isn't really telling anything, advanced programmers can write you a short code that will generate you countless pages with pictures (think danbooru system without tags). The problem here is standard, so I should rather ask whether your pages were W3C compliant and whether they showed correctly on most browsers. In bussiness I would also ask about SEO.

For point 2 I'd welcome an answer in the PM rather than here ^^


My issue is: WHO is this standard for?
Quit telling me "o it's standard" if I rarely have to use it. Did it ever occur to you that there could be more than one standard and each may be practiced for different reasons in different places? I'm saying this is one of the places where we would benefit from not forcing FTP, but keeping it around just in case.

and like i said, in my previous post, yea FTP would've been nice for that HTML project, but my point was even though it was stupid to not use FTP, at the time, i didnt use it. That's all i have to say about my high school adventures.

I'm going to sleep for the night guys, bye.
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Re: The Org Redesign - Functions - Improving the Upload Process

Postby Nya-chan Production » Mon Nov 08, 2010 10:36 pm

I am just saying that the advantages of non-FTP upload are too low for Org as of now. This might change in the future, of course, but for now the benefits are too small.
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Re: The Org Redesign - Functions - Improving the Upload Process

Postby BasharOfTheAges » Mon Nov 08, 2010 10:39 pm

LittleAtari wrote:standard

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Re: The Org Redesign - Functions - Improving the Upload Process

Postby Arigatomina » Mon Nov 08, 2010 11:02 pm

BasharOfTheAges wrote:I argue, suffering the fools is as sure of a path to demise than accepting them as they are. They certainly can't survive actually participating in the hobby without some degree of desire or at least willingness to learn. The inability to search for a simple answer to a question on google should raise some red flags somewhere, shouldn't it? At some point it becomes unfair to them to not send the wake up call.

I agree completely. In fact, I think these threads are all weird because...what would the org be if it didn't have insanely high bars that few editors can ever hope to reach? Lowering the various standards here might refresh the activity, but it would snuff out the 'editing is serious business' core. If the org loses its identity as site for 'serious-minded, high-standard' editors, then it'll just be just another tube. And why would people come to this tube when they're already comfortable on the existing one? If more people would admit they don't want to invite the unwashed masses in, this whole topic could be closed and we can all get back to not making amvs. ^^;

So, yes, I agree the bar is really low and if they still can't cut it, then the org doesn't want them. Not the lazy ones, not the ones who refuse to take a few minutes to get what they're after instead of having it handed to them on a platter. These are the people the forumers have always complained about and they've just gotten worse over the years. Can I imagine someone incapable or unwilling to learn FTP actually reading through the 'all things A&V' guide? No. There's no way. I think the cut off is a good thing. It keeps them out. It's my opinion that the org is for editors and the higher they place the bar the more the surviving editors will produce quality vids.

The number of vids are dropping and will continue to drop, but as fewer vids are uploaded here, it's easier to find the well-edited ones. Is that a bad thing? Not for people with high standards. I might get frustrated that I have to go to the tube to find vids for my favorite anime since the better editors here avoid mainstream anime with a vengeance, but that's the price we pay to keep the org what and where it is.

Personally, I thank the org for forcing me to learn and use FTP. I use it all the time now. I feel sorry for the people I talk to who've never even heard of it. It's a little complicated to learn, but once you learn it actually using it is quick and easy. It makes so many things so much easier. They don't know what they're missing. It's sad.

Bottom Line: If the org wants them, ftp has to go because it's too much trouble for them to use. If the org doesn't want them, then why are we even talking about this?
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Re: The Org Redesign - Functions - Improving the Upload Process

Postby Mastamind » Mon Nov 08, 2010 11:23 pm

Come on, people. There are MULTIPLE GUIDES here on how to upload a video, and we STILL have threads by newbies asking how to work FTP. That should be pretty embarassing, for a video site.
Aren't these threads ultimately aimed at providing a more welcoming experience for newbies and a more comfortable .org for everyone else? Having a simpler upload process would help accomplish that, no? Yeah, FTP's simple once you learn it, but I think everyone knew what LittleAtari meant by a "standard"...
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