The Org Redesign - What's wrong with the org?

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CodeZTM
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Re: The Org Redesign - What's wrong with the org?

Post by CodeZTM » Tue Nov 02, 2010 11:58 am

I wasn't trying to disprove Kionon, I was just saying we need to feed the viewers too and not completely disregard them. Like I said, I still want a majority of the site to cater to editors, but can't we at least throw the viewers a few bones here and there? :sweat:

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Re: The Org Redesign - What's wrong with the org?

Post by godix » Tue Nov 02, 2010 12:16 pm

Zarxrax wrote:This site cant exist with only creators and no viewers, because creators wont even bother with it then.
x2. This was my entire point in the other what's wrong with us thread boiled down into one sentence.
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Re: The Org Redesign - What's wrong with the org?

Post by inthesto » Tue Nov 02, 2010 1:39 pm

Gonna quickly chime in and saying I'm siding with Zarx and godix on this one.

It seems to me that Kionon and Bashar are operating under the assumption that viewers are secondary to editors, which I think is a bad one. It's one that the Org seems to uphold right now, and I'd argue it's one that's landed us where we are now.
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Re: The Org Redesign - What's wrong with the org?

Post by BasharOfTheAges » Tue Nov 02, 2010 2:41 pm

Zarxrax wrote:
BasharOfTheAges wrote:The vast majority of accounts here are consumers. They outnumber producers by degrees of magnitude. As much as the producers care about features, the consumers do not, so they really shouldn't even be brought up in any discussion about features.
Consumers don't care about features? Care to back up that statement? Because I think you are flat out wrong there. If we dont consider the needs of the viewers then they will be driven away. This site cant exist with only creators and no viewers, because creators wont even bother with it then.
I think I worded that incorrectly... Was busy with something and didn't clarify the point... work and all. What I meant to say is that the consumers don't care about features that were designed for producers and that even though consumers are a majority of the population, features for producers shouldn't be weeded out as unnecessary because a majority of the site population doesn't use them (as they are consumers)... maybe i'm not saying this right... i'm beginning to confuse myself now.

I just wanted to make sure we were framing needs in wants the correct way. The needs of both groups are different. Managing "what the average person wants" (because of the vast chasm between the number of producers and consumers) is implicitly discounting producers by definition. I think that was what I was attempting to point out before the words started getting away from me.

Likewise, listening solely to the views of the vast majority of forum posters that are editors also introduces lots of bias into the system to the point at which these threads become pointless and echo-chamber-y by the same conclusion, right? </sarcasm?>

EDIT - In all honestly, I think the reason these threads weren't started by the administration can clearly be seen in this one. The majority is too uneducated to know how to legitimately provide feedback to the process and the rest are vocal minority factions that have wildly differing stances on any number of issues. This doesn't help things, it's just a good place to bring up bitch-fests from threads shot down repeatedly in the site feedback forum.
Last edited by BasharOfTheAges on Tue Nov 02, 2010 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Org Redesign - What's wrong with the org?

Post by JaddziaDax » Tue Nov 02, 2010 2:51 pm

Why is a viewer's opinion completely invalid? I'm pretty sure they know what they like and don't like to see in a video. I think they have the right to express that.

I've gotten a lot of useless vague opinions from editors as well. Usually they are people with differing styles that would rather see me edit their way than to learn/create my own style.

Granted a lot of opinions you will get are "zomg i love it" or "zomg i hate it" but is that any more valid coming from another editor? Both are useless no matter who it comes from, but it's still nice to see it evoked a response.

I guess I am of the opinion that even useless opinions are nice to get, because at least I made something that prompted a response.

Either way, I agree with Ying, Zarx and Godix on this one as well. Without viewers there wouldn't be much point to making videos and releasing them on this site.

While I do make my videos first and foremost for me, so that way *I* like them, having someone else tell you something like "I've been waiting to see a video like this since I started watching amvs" is really freaking sweet, editor or no.

I can, for whatever reason, understand wanting to block comments though. I'm just saying that I feel a viewer's opinion is valid.

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Re: The Org Redesign - What's wrong with the org?

Post by Pwolf » Tue Nov 02, 2010 3:47 pm

BasharOfTheAges wrote: EDIT - In all honestly, I think the reason these threads weren't started by the administration can clearly be seen in this one. The majority is too uneducated to know how to legitimately provide feedback to the process and the rest are vocal minority factions that have wildly differing stances on any number of issues. This doesn't help things, it's just a good place to bring up bitch-fests from threads shot down repeatedly in the site feedback forum.
The point of this thread is to identify what's wrong with the current system and keep it all in one place instead of in a million different threads. I think everyone has a valid reason for what they think is wrong. I wanted to encourage discussion, and that's what we are doing, bitch fest or not. A bitch fest in one thread about trying to come up with better solutions is a lot better then a million bitch fests in threads that are just about complaining.

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Re: The Org Redesign - What's wrong with the org?

Post by Arigatomina » Tue Nov 02, 2010 3:54 pm

Discount Menu wrote:Really, your suggestion, if I'm reading it correctly, is founded on the premise that editors and non-editors are somehow fundamentally different. If anything, I'd bet that separating the viewers from the editors would only make things even worse (i.e. "Oh, you're not an editor so I don't have to take your opinion seriously").
We can sort the top 10% list by 'fan reviews' or 'creator reviews'. The two searches get you wildly different results because the two are fundamentally different when it comes to reviews. The main page separates its links according to 'fans' and 'editors'. The two groups are very different when it comes to what functions they use on this site. They're already separate and have been for a very long time. It's not "will it make things worse" but "has it made things worse." I think it has a little, as far as feedback dropping so low we had to use 5 as the max ops for a vid to hit the top 10 list. But if you blame that on the tube, then it's not the org's fault and has nothing to do with the lack of vocal viewers in this forum.

Again, I agree with your suggestion. I'd love to see the org welcome viewers into the community and let them share their 'general enjoyment of amvs' somewhere on this site. But not on this forum. As a viewer, I'm uncomfortable with the idea of inviting viewers in when you know the editors look down on them. As both a former editor and a viewer, I'm bothered by the idea of viewers swarming in here and driving the few active editors away. I just don't think the two groups get along well enough to share this forum after it's been in the editors' hands for so long. I think the mods would have to seriously curtail the more outspoken editors to make them "play nice" with the viewers, and that would ruin the crunchy appeal of this forum that keeps even inactive editors coming back here.
Last edited by Arigatomina on Tue Nov 02, 2010 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Org Redesign - What's wrong with the org?

Post by 8bit_samurai » Tue Nov 02, 2010 3:59 pm

Actually, the reason why these threads weren't started by the administration was because they were going to when the code was all worked out. So it seems there were going to be bitch fests sooner or later. I mean seriously, AMVs are serious business.
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Re: The Org Redesign - What's wrong with the org?

Post by godix » Tue Nov 02, 2010 5:00 pm

BasharOfTheAges wrote:EDIT - In all honestly, I think the reason these threads weren't started by the administration can clearly be seen in this one. The majority is too uneducated to know how to legitimately provide feedback to the process and the rest are vocal minority factions that have wildly differing stances on any number of issues. This doesn't help things, it's just a good place to bring up bitch-fests from threads shot down repeatedly in the site feedback forum.
Actually, I think the problem is we get sidetracked with side issues. The redesign is just starting. At this point, really, the entire focus should be 'What is the primary goal here'. Whatever is not related to that primary goal should get shoved on the backburner. Plenty of time to deal with it later, AFTER the primary goal is satisfied. I feel the primary goal should be to allowed editors to easily upload their videos and viewers to watch them. The catalog every AMV ever idea is long since dead, it's time to just give up on it.

Which gives us the two subset of users we've been talking about. Speaking as an editor, the org doesn't really have much of a problem. Sure, it could be easier, but FTP isn't *THAT* hard to figure out. Plus most of the resources from the last 10 years are editor focused, and we'll still have all those resources available. As such, the editor subgroup shouldn't be the primary focus of the redesign.

Viewing is a different issue. Several posts have gone into detail on how finding and viewing videos is overly difficult. While I don't want us to become youtube, I don't understand why watching an AMV should be more complex than Youtube. A lot of the ideas so far such as highlighting vids on the FP and so on fall into this category.

So stuff like commenting, opt-out, and while I hate to say it even stuff like forums should all be secondary until viewing is as simple as 'click link to org, click play'. Right now making things easier for viewers is just more important than community stuff or editor focused features. That should be the primary goal of the redesign right now. The rest can be done later.
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Re: The Org Redesign - What's wrong with the org?

Post by BasharOfTheAges » Tue Nov 02, 2010 5:12 pm

godix wrote:
BasharOfTheAges wrote:EDIT - In all honestly, I think the reason these threads weren't started by the administration can clearly be seen in this one. The majority is too uneducated to know how to legitimately provide feedback to the process and the rest are vocal minority factions that have wildly differing stances on any number of issues. This doesn't help things, it's just a good place to bring up bitch-fests from threads shot down repeatedly in the site feedback forum.
Actually, I think the problem is we get sidetracked with side issues. The redesign is just starting. At this point, really, the entire focus should be 'What is the primary goal here'. Whatever is not related to that primary goal should get shoved on the backburner. Plenty of time to deal with it later, AFTER the primary goal is satisfied. I feel the primary goal should be to allowed editors to easily upload their videos and viewers to watch them. The catalog every AMV ever idea is long since dead, it's time to just give up on it.

Which gives us the two subset of users we've been talking about. Speaking as an editor, the org doesn't really have much of a problem. Sure, it could be easier, but FTP isn't *THAT* hard to figure out. Plus most of the resources from the last 10 years are editor focused, and we'll still have all those resources available. As such, the editor subgroup shouldn't be the primary focus of the redesign.

Viewing is a different issue. Several posts have gone into detail on how finding and viewing videos is overly difficult. While I don't want us to become youtube, I don't understand why watching an AMV should be more complex than Youtube. A lot of the ideas so far such as highlighting vids on the FP and so on fall into this category.

So stuff like commenting, opt-out, and while I hate to say it even stuff like forums should all be secondary until viewing is as simple as 'click link to org, click play'. Right now making things easier for viewers is just more important than community stuff or editor focused features. That should be the primary goal of the redesign right now. The rest can be done later.
I think you're spot on with this assessment. The main page is unintuitive and cluttered and the super search is far to cumbersome and filled with needless data-mining options that don't serve the overwhelming number of people here. We also have all this recommendation code baked into the site that doesn't seem like it's used enough... It'd be really great if we could seamlessly put recommended videos (option 1 option 2 or undefined option 3) up when people logged in, at the end of other videos, in margins, etc. If we measure success by any criteria that includes traffic, encouraging people to go on wikipedia-like tangents from video to video in an unobtrusive fashion instead of making each video a discrete destination would also be desirable. Treat the pages as connected nodes, not as end points.
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