The Org Redesign - What's wrong with the org?

Re: The Org Redesign - What's wrong with the org?

Postby godix » Mon Nov 01, 2010 8:08 pm

Zarxrax wrote:
BasharOfTheAges wrote:100x this. Some things just don't work in preview mode. Namely anything with HUEG dimensions.

Doesnt the preview encode get downscaled? If not, thats something that needs to happen.

Yes, AFAIK it does, but there is a point of too much downsizing. As an example, this 1600x480 video is on AKROSS and previewed there. Due to downscaling, it is 145 pixels high in the preview (the rest is letterboxing). That just looks like pure shit. Hell, I decided not to send it to a con because lowering height to 216 to fit their resolution requirements looked bad. I don't want something being passed off as representative of my video that's even worse than what I already rejected.

Now, I'm sure anyone can ask for this one video to not be previewed and would get that, provided it's technically possible and there is a good justification. However, I've been around for years and know most admins/mods. I know that admins/mods will grant reasonable requests, would an editor not active in the community know that they aren't total hardasses? I know I won't piss them off by asking, would that unknown editor realize? I know who to ask, would an editor know that (although it's not hard to find out). Besides, is this the sort of thing that should even be asked? I've always said that if a user can do something for themselves, then they should instead of hoping an admin will do it. However, that requires being given the tools to do it themselves.

So, while the redesign is in the starting stages, when opt-outs are coded, please allow them on a per-video basis rather than on the whole account as it is now.
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Re: The Org Redesign - What's wrong with the org?

Postby inthesto » Tue Nov 02, 2010 12:20 am

Arigatomina wrote:
Discount Menu wrote:Case in point: you're not allowed to introduce yourself to the community. The Off Topic forum was shut down because people were making friends

That's why the OT was shut down. Applying that reason to the removal of the intro section makes you wonder how you can have a community if you don't want new members making friends with existing members. ^^;

I agree with everything you said. The intro and OT sections invited members from the main site to come into the forum - especially viewers who don't make their own vids. At the time, Phade said the OT section: "...has become too much of a clique/social gathering of people who are not really contributing to world of anime music videos." Who are these people who don't contribute? I didn't know who those useless members were at the time, but a few years later it's blatantly obvious. The non-editing viewers. They're not creating, so they don't contribute amvs to the collection. They don't know how to make vids, so they have nothing useful to post in the editor-specific threads. There's a wall between those who post in the forum and the masses on main site, and without an intro section to invite them in, few of the non-contributing members (aka: the viewers) climb over it. The wall has kept most of them out of the forum for almost seven years now. Intentionally. Does the org really want to invite those useless members back into the forum?

I'd like to see an Intro section here. I'd be able to convice some of my viewer-only friends to join the org for their amv needs if I could point to an intro section and show them that the org forum is not just for editors, and that they *can* come here just to talk about their enjoyment of amvs with fellow fans. It would be so much more convenient than chatting in a single "amv" thread in a big forum that has nothing to do with amvs as a whole. They'd get a kick out of filling out their favorite vid lists and using the star ratings to have vids recommended to them, and all the little viewer-specific activies the org has to offer. But I don't think a section for them in this forum would work. I think the intro/ot sections would just end up being closed again for the same reasons they were closed in the first place - too much work for the mods and since those members don't make vids they're not contributing to the creation of new amvs. They can browse the library as much as they want, and the org could make it nice and comfortable for them out there, but since they're not restocking the shelves they don't belong in the back rooms.

Maybe a separate forum (small, simple, but permanent and thus better than chatrooms where you don't remember who you talked to from one day to the next) for non-editors, one linked out there on the main page where they can talk about vids as much as they want, with a single sticky inviting them over if they want more information about making vids themselves. Of course editors who want to talk to their fans can post over there as well, but those who prefer to distance themselves from their viewers can just pretend that forum doesn't exist. You could even have a link to this mini-forum sent out in the emails when a new member joins, that way they know where to go so their fellow viewers can show them around. I'd bet a lot of people join just to stream a local video, and then forget the site exists and never come back. If they were directed to a viewer-friendly forum the moment they join they might make some friends and decide to stick around long enough to become editors themselves.


The first thing I'm going to address is your rhetoric (which, to be fair, is repeating Phade's own subtext) about how "viewers/non-editors aren't contributors". At first, I thought you were being sarcastic, but your arguments that followed indicated otherwise. The premise that non-editors don't contribute to the community is flawed. Sure, they don't contribute to the community discussions now, but that's again part of the structure of the forums (i.e. we're not allowed to talk about anything not pertaining to AMVs). More importantly, though is the fact that non-editing viewers are the majority of our audience, and most of us editors like having an audience. Yes, if you ask most of us, we will by and large say that editing is ultimately for our individual selves, but most of us also won't deny getting a nice fuzzy feeling when they see their video air in front of a live audience and receiving applause afterwards. Without a non-editing audience, there's only so many people to show, and hey guess why announcement threads have such a limited shelf life? Viewers are just as important as editors, as long as we give up this god damn catalogue rhetoric.

The other thing I need to address is that I vehemently disagree with your suggestion for a separate forum for non-editors. The whole point I was trying to drive home is that a community is about people hanging out with people, and that's the point of an OT forum. Segregating people by titles is only going to divide people and create friction between the perceived groups. Really, your suggestion, if I'm reading it correctly, is founded on the premise that editors and non-editors are somehow fundamentally different. If anything, I'd bet that separating the viewers from the editors would only make things even worse (i.e. "Oh, you're not an editor so I don't have to take your opinion seriously"). If you don't buy that argument, fine, but I'll offer this one instead: Creating a separate forum for non-editors is simply more complicated and more work than having a general off-topic forum. Occam's razor and all that, remember.
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Re: The Org Redesign - What's wrong with the org?

Postby Fire_Starter » Tue Nov 02, 2010 12:26 am

godix wrote:
Discount Menu wrote:
Pwolf wrote:everyone, don't even think about what's possible or what isn't possible or how difficult it would be to make. This time is for sharing ideas. When it comes time to put it all together i'm sure we can figure it out.


In that case I want a blowjob from a unicorn.

Won't the unicorn be stabbing you in the belly while it's bobbing on your knob?

To each their own, I guess...
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<Stirspeare> Fire_Starter: Electoral college etc.

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Re: The Org Redesign - What's wrong with the org?

Postby inthesto » Tue Nov 02, 2010 12:29 am

I will also add that the argument of OT being too much work on the moderators will probably not be a problem. Though I wasn't around for the original OT, most of the forum users that I have observed are a tame enough bunch. Push comes to shove, I don't see why adding another mod whose primary role is to maintain the OT forum should be too much of a hassle.
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Re: The Org Redesign - What's wrong with the org?

Postby Zarxrax » Tue Nov 02, 2010 4:03 am

Discount Menu wrote:I will also add that the argument of OT being too much work on the moderators will probably not be a problem. Though I wasn't around for the original OT, most of the forum users that I have observed are a tame enough bunch. Push comes to shove, I don't see why adding another mod whose primary role is to maintain the OT forum should be too much of a hassle.

Indeed, and somehow every other community on the internet manages an OT forum just fine.
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Re: The Org Redesign - What's wrong with the org?

Postby Athena » Tue Nov 02, 2010 4:24 am

Honestly, I don't care about an off-topic forum. I really don't. In the end, I honestly think it will not change anything, and have no net effect, but if it does have an effect, I would be more likely to think it would have a positive one. So I don't oppose it, if anything, if it is something people really want, then go for it.

While I don't think viewers are some giant group of barbarian or zombie hoards come to destroy our editor civilisation, I also only rarely get anything from what they have to say. There are viewers, such as quadir, who are sophisticated critics and can offer just as much useful critique as any serious editor. Such viewers are incredibly rare. I don't think being an audience member provides you with the tools to be ultimately helpful to the improvement of editors, unless editors are specifically trying to cater to viewers, in which case improvement becomes very debatable. In addition, I do not feel viewers will themselves feel compelled to participate in other parts of the forums or offer serious critique even if they do start hanging out in off-topic or the site in general. Most viewers do exactly one thing on the org, and will continue to do exactly one thing on the org even if we offer them additional features: search for and download videos.

Sorry to rain on your parade, ying. I'm more than willing to give your ideas a try. Just don't expect me to give up my cynicism.
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Re: The Org Redesign - What's wrong with the org?

Postby Pie Row Maniac » Tue Nov 02, 2010 4:31 am

Oh hey, this thread finally happened. :up:

I'm all for the OT section returning, albeit several years later than I wished. There's nothing wrong with the talk of other subjects, so long as it's in it's own area, not bothering the other sections and egging their houses or lighting bags of dog poop on their doorstep, which has never happened, so really, what are we arguing about here? That's right, nothing.

Make this website fun again. :) For both old user's and newcomer's sakes alike.
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Re: The Org Redesign - What's wrong with the org?

Postby CodeZTM » Tue Nov 02, 2010 8:04 am

Kionon wrote:While I don't think viewers are some giant group of barbarian or zombie hoards come to destroy our editor civilisation, I also only rarely get anything from what they have to say. There are viewers, such as quadir, who are sophisticated critics and can offer just as much useful critique as any serious editor. Such viewers are incredibly rare. I don't think being an audience member provides you with the tools to be ultimately helpful to the improvement of editors, unless editors are specifically trying to cater to viewers, in which case improvement becomes very debatable. In addition, I do not feel viewers will themselves feel compelled to participate in other parts of the forums or offer serious critique even if they do start hanging out in off-topic or the site in general. Most viewers do exactly one thing on the org, and will continue to do exactly one thing on the org even if we offer them additional features: search for and download videos.


Well.. We were all viewers at some point, and at some point we decided to become editors. I was here as a viewer for at least several months before I became actively wanting to become an editor. Heck, in the beginning, I had zero desire to get involved No offense, but we're scary! It takes a lot of self-esteem and/or masochism to stick around here, and not just because of the criticisms we give each other. :sweat:

Beginners forums and a off topic forum to "Break the Ice" so to speak, might really be beneficial in the end, as they might bring people closer to the community and into the other forums.

Or we could just start up Project Editor again. Hell, that thread is just like an off-topic forum for its own sake. :asd:
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Re: The Org Redesign - What's wrong with the org?

Postby BasharOfTheAges » Tue Nov 02, 2010 11:11 am

CodeZTM wrote:
Kionon wrote:While I don't think viewers are some giant group of barbarian or zombie hoards come to destroy our editor civilisation, I also only rarely get anything from what they have to say. There are viewers, such as quadir, who are sophisticated critics and can offer just as much useful critique as any serious editor. Such viewers are incredibly rare. I don't think being an audience member provides you with the tools to be ultimately helpful to the improvement of editors, unless editors are specifically trying to cater to viewers, in which case improvement becomes very debatable. In addition, I do not feel viewers will themselves feel compelled to participate in other parts of the forums or offer serious critique even if they do start hanging out in off-topic or the site in general. Most viewers do exactly one thing on the org, and will continue to do exactly one thing on the org even if we offer them additional features: search for and download videos.


Well.. We were all viewers at some point, and at some point we decided to become editors. I was here as a viewer for at least several months before I became actively wanting to become an editor. Heck, in the beginning, I had zero desire to get involved No offense, but we're scary! It takes a lot of self-esteem and/or masochism to stick around here, and not just because of the criticisms we give each other. :sweat:

None of what you said disproves anything kio said there... Just because you once held the status of being a viewer doesn't mean you always had the same legitimacy to your feedback or desire to give it that you do now as an editor or that those two states didn't have many steps in between. The vast majority of accounts here are consumers. They outnumber producers by degrees of magnitude. As much as the producers care about features, the consumers do not, so they really shouldn't even be brought up in any discussion about features.
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Re: The Org Redesign - What's wrong with the org?

Postby Zarxrax » Tue Nov 02, 2010 11:36 am

BasharOfTheAges wrote:The vast majority of accounts here are consumers. They outnumber producers by degrees of magnitude. As much as the producers care about features, the consumers do not, so they really shouldn't even be brought up in any discussion about features.

Consumers don't care about features? Care to back up that statement? Because I think you are flat out wrong there. If we dont consider the needs of the viewers then they will be driven away. This site cant exist with only creators and no viewers, because creators wont even bother with it then.
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Re: The Org Redesign - What's wrong with the org?

Postby CodeZTM » Tue Nov 02, 2010 11:58 am

I wasn't trying to disprove Kionon, I was just saying we need to feed the viewers too and not completely disregard them. Like I said, I still want a majority of the site to cater to editors, but can't we at least throw the viewers a few bones here and there? :sweat:
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Re: The Org Redesign - What's wrong with the org?

Postby godix » Tue Nov 02, 2010 12:16 pm

Zarxrax wrote:This site cant exist with only creators and no viewers, because creators wont even bother with it then.

x2. This was my entire point in the other what's wrong with us thread boiled down into one sentence.
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Re: The Org Redesign - What's wrong with the org?

Postby inthesto » Tue Nov 02, 2010 1:39 pm

Gonna quickly chime in and saying I'm siding with Zarx and godix on this one.

It seems to me that Kionon and Bashar are operating under the assumption that viewers are secondary to editors, which I think is a bad one. It's one that the Org seems to uphold right now, and I'd argue it's one that's landed us where we are now.
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Re: The Org Redesign - What's wrong with the org?

Postby BasharOfTheAges » Tue Nov 02, 2010 2:41 pm

Zarxrax wrote:
BasharOfTheAges wrote:The vast majority of accounts here are consumers. They outnumber producers by degrees of magnitude. As much as the producers care about features, the consumers do not, so they really shouldn't even be brought up in any discussion about features.

Consumers don't care about features? Care to back up that statement? Because I think you are flat out wrong there. If we dont consider the needs of the viewers then they will be driven away. This site cant exist with only creators and no viewers, because creators wont even bother with it then.

I think I worded that incorrectly... Was busy with something and didn't clarify the point... work and all. What I meant to say is that the consumers don't care about features that were designed for producers and that even though consumers are a majority of the population, features for producers shouldn't be weeded out as unnecessary because a majority of the site population doesn't use them (as they are consumers)... maybe i'm not saying this right... i'm beginning to confuse myself now.

I just wanted to make sure we were framing needs in wants the correct way. The needs of both groups are different. Managing "what the average person wants" (because of the vast chasm between the number of producers and consumers) is implicitly discounting producers by definition. I think that was what I was attempting to point out before the words started getting away from me.

Likewise, listening solely to the views of the vast majority of forum posters that are editors also introduces lots of bias into the system to the point at which these threads become pointless and echo-chamber-y by the same conclusion, right? </sarcasm?>

EDIT - In all honestly, I think the reason these threads weren't started by the administration can clearly be seen in this one. The majority is too uneducated to know how to legitimately provide feedback to the process and the rest are vocal minority factions that have wildly differing stances on any number of issues. This doesn't help things, it's just a good place to bring up bitch-fests from threads shot down repeatedly in the site feedback forum.
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Re: The Org Redesign - What's wrong with the org?

Postby JaddziaDax » Tue Nov 02, 2010 2:51 pm

Why is a viewer's opinion completely invalid? I'm pretty sure they know what they like and don't like to see in a video. I think they have the right to express that.

I've gotten a lot of useless vague opinions from editors as well. Usually they are people with differing styles that would rather see me edit their way than to learn/create my own style.

Granted a lot of opinions you will get are "zomg i love it" or "zomg i hate it" but is that any more valid coming from another editor? Both are useless no matter who it comes from, but it's still nice to see it evoked a response.

I guess I am of the opinion that even useless opinions are nice to get, because at least I made something that prompted a response.

Either way, I agree with Ying, Zarx and Godix on this one as well. Without viewers there wouldn't be much point to making videos and releasing them on this site.

While I do make my videos first and foremost for me, so that way *I* like them, having someone else tell you something like "I've been waiting to see a video like this since I started watching amvs" is really freaking sweet, editor or no.

I can, for whatever reason, understand wanting to block comments though. I'm just saying that I feel a viewer's opinion is valid.
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