Updated AVtech Guide - Beta

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Phantasmagoriat
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Re: Updated AVtech Guide - Beta

Post by Phantasmagoriat » Sat Oct 09, 2010 12:37 am

Before this starts to become tl;dr, I should probably note that I come from an Education background, so hopefully that should lend credibility to what I write. :P

I seriously like all the condensing. It's really difficult to cover all the important info while staying concise. In particular, the "key concepts" was an excellent idea, although I would consider putting them at the top so people know what stuff they are supposed to learn right away (the last thing we want is for this information to be hidden). Maybe leave them at the end too, simply retitled "Review of Key Concepts." It may seem redundant, but it can really reinforce what you are supposed to know.

Content-wise, I think we're pretty good. Although honestly I haven't read through it all. One concern I have with the guides is (and has always been) the layout of the index page. It is so disorganized (to the point that we can't even call it a singular Guide-- rather we call it The Guides). Some things in particular:
  • The Theory guides are the most daunting part of amv production, and certainly not what new editors are looking for when they want a guide about amv's; yet you get a gigantic chunk of it right at the beginning with no real connection to where it applies later on. Ideally you would want to introduce this information in the guides when it becomes relevant. Now, without re-writing the guides from scratch this would be difficult to implement. So with the way we have it now, I would suggest putting the Theory guides at the bottom of the main page, listed as an Appendix. Then in the main body of the guide, links can simply be introduced whenever it seems appropriate.
  • Most people prefer a more linear layout. While I think dividing the audio/video into their respective sides is a novel idea, it makes more sense if there was a clear time and place to do all the audio stuff. In my opinion, this should all be done before you even touch the video component-- I mean, generally you work your amv around the audio anyway. So I think the entire audio side should be scrapped and placed right before "Getting your Video." Additionally, since there are only two Audio Theory Guides, they can easily be put with the rest.
  • Some things are still redundant, but considering the evolution of this guide, I think that is something to be expected. If we move towards a linear guide, this shouldn't be a problem. I'm just looking at how many times we say Download the AMVapp, which makes me question whether I'm an idiot, or if I really missed something. When I first started making amv's, I swear I thought there were multiple AMVapps-- then got annoyed when I found out all the links went to the same place :rofl:. Anyways, if we have a linear guide, and one of the first steps says "Download the AMVapp," nobody is going to miss it. Plus, it's generally easier and more efficient to learn things in chunks, because people can scan down... almost like a checklist.
  • Also regarding multiple links to the same place: Keep it to a minimum. I wouldn't add links to the headings "Getting your Video", "Getting your Audio", "Editing and Preparing your audio" when the subheading goes to the same place. I would probably scrap all the headings under Getting your Video, and replace with everything under the overview page, which is really the heart of the guide anyways. At one point, I didn't even know that existed. I'm kind of shocked it was so hidden. :shock:
  • Use magical numbers. [Educational mumbo-jumbo ahead] Generally, people can't remember more than 7 items unless they condition themselves. On average, people remember 5. This should be your target for the number of headings (or less). I think we should be good for headings (at least the main ones). But even if the number goes over 7, never combine distinct concepts into one heading. However, if concepts are related, use subheadings under a more general main heading (for instance, .d2v and .avs files can fall under a general heading like "Reading your Ripped footage" ...or something similar).
  • Having the headings centered isn't very readable
/tl;dr

Ok, I think I have ranted enough and you probably hate me by now, so I should start being useful. This is how I suggest the main index page should look with a linear layout:

[see next post]
Last edited by Phantasmagoriat on Sat Oct 09, 2010 12:27 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Updated AVtech Guide - Beta

Post by Phantasmagoriat » Sat Oct 09, 2010 12:46 am

------------

A/V TECHNICAL GUIDE [v3.1_Linear]

***Disclaimer: It is strongly recommended to read Appendix A & B first so that concepts make more sense as they are introduced. Even just a quick glance over the Key Concepts can make a huge difference. Nobody is forcing you to become a technical expert, however, it is ultimately your responsibility to make sure you look up concepts if something doesn't make sense. But of course, if something confuses you, you can always come and ask about it in the forum. ^__^ Please keep in mind, any responses are provided by other members in their spare time.

0. Getting Started: 1. Getting your AUDIO: 2. Getting your VIDEO: 3. Editing your AMV: 4. Post Production: (optional if done completely before editing) 5. File Compression/ Video Distribution: ___________________________
APPENDIX A: Theory Guides ___________________________
APPENDIX B: AviSynth? ___________________________
APPENDIX C: Glossary ___________________________
APPENDIX D: Visual Aids ___________________________________________________________________________________
| AMV Home| Forum |#AMV | AMVApp 3.1 | Guides | FAQ | Glossary | Top 10% AMV | VCA |


------------

All the same information is there in a nice linear fashion, and the way you cleaned it up made it that much easier Zarx. Thanks.
Sure it might not look as pretty :aimkissyface:, but I modeled it off the way textbooks are written (they're written that way for a reason... :book: )

So. I don't know what other people think, but I think the index page needs a makeover.

~Phan
Last edited by Phantasmagoriat on Fri Nov 19, 2010 2:10 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Updated AVtech Guide - Beta

Post by Zarxrax » Sat Oct 09, 2010 9:09 am

Thank you for the suggestions, Phantasmagoriat.
I won't be implementing any of your suggestions right now (some stuff in the guide is just really bad and NEEDS to be updated right away), but I will be looking into some of your suggestions for the future.

Regarding the placement of the theory guides, I really feel like much of the content is stuff that people REALLY ought to know before they begin editing. That's why it comes at the beginning.
I at once point considered integrating all of the theory stuff directly into the rest of the guide. But this made some of the pages really long and daunting, and when you were just trying to look up how to do something real quick, it could be difficult to find the relevant info within a page. Putting links to the relevant sections of the theory guides within the main pages might be a good way of doing things. I will look into this further at some point.

I think the audio theory guides are pretty useless, though perhaps slightly interesting. But they look like AbsoluteDestiny put a lot of work into them, so I keep them around >.>

The reason some stuff is said multiple times, like download the AmvApp, is so people wont miss it if they are skipping around and not reading linearly.
Can you believe I still see people asking where to download AmvApp? :p

About the links on the headings, good point, I'll remove those right away.

The index page is something I've always been working on improving. I think you could definitely say that its way better than the old one :p
One reason that I like having the audio stuff separated, is I don't really expect people to be USING that part of the guide very often. So if you aren't interested in it, its over out of the way, and can be ignored.

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Re: Updated AVtech Guide - Beta

Post by BasharOfTheAges » Sat Oct 09, 2010 9:11 am

While that looks great for someone actually using the guides for the first time, i'd venture a guess that the same people go in for a refresher multiple times. They would (most likely) be going to #2 part B as a refresher. Why make them click multiple links to get there? Isn't "good" web interface all about reducing click-through?
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Re: Updated AVtech Guide - Beta

Post by Phantasmagoriat » Sat Oct 09, 2010 1:20 pm

Zarxrax wrote:Thank you for the suggestions, Phantasmagoriat.
I won't be implementing any of your suggestions right now (some stuff in the guide is just really bad and NEEDS to be updated right away), but I will be looking into some of your suggestions for the future.
For sure, they are just suggestions after all.

Zarxrax wrote:Regarding the placement of the theory guides, I really feel like much of the content is stuff that people REALLY ought to know before they begin editing. That's why it comes at the beginning.
I at once point considered integrating all of the theory stuff directly into the rest of the guide. But this made some of the pages really long and daunting, and when you were just trying to look up how to do something real quick, it could be difficult to find the relevant info within a page. Putting links to the relevant sections of the theory guides within the main pages might be a good way of doing things. I will look into this further at some point.
My main reason for wanting the Theory guides as an Appendix is because I'm concerned about the front-end appeal of the guide. New members scream when they see Theory guides first thing. I'm not saying they are not important, but you can get through the majority of the guide without knowing every detail of video theory. For instance, knowing about Colorspace isn't even relevant for most people until later when they try to use avisynth filters that require yv12. I think my intentions can be summarized in the disclaimer I wrote. It doesn't even mean anything needs to be changed-- just the appearance of the front-end.

Zarxrax wrote:I think the audio theory guides are pretty useless, though perhaps slightly interesting. But they look like AbsoluteDestiny put a lot of work into them, so I keep them around >.>
I feel the same way, and by no means do I want to get rid of relevant information, just place more emphasis on what's really important. For instance, I still think people should have access to the mpeg-1 and xvid guides, as long as they know they are depreciated

Zarxrax wrote:The reason some stuff is said multiple times, like download the AmvApp, is so people wont miss it if they are skipping around and not reading linearly.
Can you believe I still see people asking where to download AmvApp? :p
:lol: I believe it. But I think that's always going to happen. If people are blind they are blind :roll:

Zarxrax wrote: The index page is something I've always been working on improving. I think you could definitely say that its way better than the old one :p
The evolution of this guide should be put on display in the Smithsonian :amv:

Zarxrax wrote: One reason that I like having the audio stuff separated, is I don't really expect people to be USING that part of the guide very often. So if you aren't interested in it, its over out of the way, and can be ignored.
I seen what you mean, although I don't think it's really out of the way like it should be. It literally takes up half the page. I would rather have three simple lines that I can forget about, rather than have it stand out the whole time:
1. Getting your AUDIO:
  • Overview
  • Preparing your audio
--------------
BasharOfTheAges wrote:While that looks great for someone actually using the guides for the first time [...]
I have to stop you right there. You hit the nail right on the head :beer:

BasharOfTheAges wrote: [...] i'd venture a guess that the same people go in for a refresher multiple times. They would (most likely) be going to #2 part B as a refresher. Why make them click multiple links to get there? Isn't "good" web interface all about reducing click-through?
Well, I wanted to make the index simple, straight forward, and easy to read because that's what index's are for, but I see what you mean. I made some changes to hopefully address that issue. Basically, everything in the Overview is now one level higher.


Thoughts anyone?
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Re: Updated AVtech Guide - Beta

Post by Snowcrash » Sun Oct 10, 2010 6:03 am

Phantasmagoriat wrote: Obtaining your Source Footage:
What source will you take your footage from?
Downloaded footage - No. I don't care what anyone says about the current quality of fansubs or anything like that, downloaded footage is almost always second grade.
After a lot of discussions about PAL DVD on avisynth section, I disagree with that. Not everyone is leaving in NTSC countries and can get good footages for editing. Most PAL DVD have been done with a bad "NTSC to PAL" transfer and it's really a mess to get a good source (except few companies which did a good work) !

So what do we do ? Just download a good footage with a correct framerate and good deinterlacing.
And don't tell me to import NTSC DVD just to edit an AMV :roll:
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Re: Updated AVtech Guide - Beta

Post by Zarxrax » Sun Oct 10, 2010 11:03 am

Uh... well if you want to use it then just follow what it says about downloaded footage. Whats the problem?

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Re: Updated AVtech Guide - Beta

Post by Snowcrash » Sun Oct 10, 2010 11:11 am

Zarxrax wrote:Uh... well if you want to use it then just follow what it says about downloaded footage. Whats the problem?
I will ^^

If I seem a bit angry it's just because when the first time I asked how to convert a 25 fps to 23.97 fps (I would like to work with PAL DVD), few people told me it was completely stupid to work with this kind of DVD. So after a lot of explanations I understood I should avoid PAL DVD and then finally have to download my sources.
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Re: Updated AVtech Guide - Beta

Post by Phantasmagoriat » Sun Oct 10, 2010 1:05 pm

I understand what you mean.
I think that has been in the guides for a long time for the ethical reasons, even if it is not stated explicitly.
However, things have changed a lot with downloaded footage over the years, and I have my own opinions on the matter.


As you found out, there are exceptions. Some are described later in the paragraph:
If there happens to be some footage that you've downloaded that you really can't find officially (like, for instance, something which was never released on DVD) then it might be alright to use this method.
I think [improper] PAL footage is another exception. This reminds me of the time I bought Kino's Journey off Amazon-- BAD IDEA! They were not the good kind of PAL DVD's... they were the mangled kind of PAL DVD's. In this case I would rather use downloaded footage, and I'm not going to buy Kino's Journey again :amv:

Perhaps the following text could be added to the guide:
"But let's say you own official DVD's that the anime company encoded improperly (many official PAL DVD's have blending/framerate issues). It would be ridiculous to purchase the same series again, but in a different format. In this case you may feel justified in using downloaded footage (assuming you can find good enough quality)."
So yes there are exceptions, and certainly don't feel bad about it :wink:
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Re: Updated AVtech Guide - Beta

Post by Zarxrax » Sun Oct 10, 2010 2:52 pm

I am not allowed to encourage the use of downloaded footage in any way. This is phade's rule for the site. He barely even allowed me to put a page in telling how to work with downloaded footage.

But on another topic: what would be the best format for a downloadable version of the guide? A PDF, or just a collection of all the html files?
I suppose the pdf route is makes it easier to print out the whole guide, but then its difficult to jump around to different parts, and some sections like the example images in the avs scripting part wont really work in that format.

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