Your opinion on framerates

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Your opinion on framerates

Postby mirkosp » Sat Sep 04, 2010 6:35 pm

So #AMV was having an interesting and somewhat tech-oriented discussion last night, and one thing that came up was framerates.
Talking a bit, people mostly agreed that, while 24fps is a standard for a reason, it does indeed have its flaws as it is too low for mid-low speed pans, which end up being noticeably jerky. On the other hand we also were saying how 60fps can be really excessive as some content feels weird when seen at 60fps, like if it's too smooth and unnatural. So I said "what about doing something like 48fps? It could have enough smoothness for the pans while not being as fast as 60 so perhaps it wouldn't give the occasional "too smooth" feeling," at which trythil replied with something like "you know, James Cameron actually wanted to shoot Avatar as 48fps AND 3D, but was only able to get the 3D to pass." He then provided a link to the article, so we discussed the thing briefly, and after a short while, Niotex volunteered making a framerate test. He made a simple animation in after effects with a few expressions, and rendered it at 24.00fps, 48.00fps, and 59.94fps, so we could effectively compare what it would feel like to see the three in motion and what we thought actually looked best for movies and such (obviously watching a movie is not like playing videogames, where you'll always want the highest framerate possible by all means).
Here are the links to the clips:
24.00fps
48.00fps
59.94fps
Since they were already rendered at the viewing framerate, this proves as a simple but effective and proper comparison, as the frames weren't interpolated or decimated to get to a certain framerate. One thing to note is that, if I recall correctly, only the right cube in the animation has motion blur applied. This is something that Niotex did on purposes as another thing to test (how good does motion blur or lack thereof look at the various framerates).
So well, here you have the preamble. Now we'd like to know what you think about it! :)
Please note: video does have audio too, you might want to turn down the volume of your speakers/headphones as it is somewhat loud.
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Re: Your opinion on framerates

Postby gotenks794 » Sat Sep 04, 2010 7:22 pm

mirkosp wrote:Please note: video does have audio too, you might want to turn down the volume of your speakers/headphones as it is somewhat loud.

Wish I read this....

Personally, I think 24fps is best. The 48 got me a bit motion sick.
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Re: Your opinion on framerates

Postby Kariudo » Sat Sep 04, 2010 7:54 pm

man, I missed that one...all I got last night was a discussion on politics that I inadvertently started.

There's definitely a difference between 24 and 48 in the test clips. Not so noticeable between 48 and 60. You wouldn't really start to notice until you get some really low speed pans (and then there's the point where the difference between frames becomes imperceptible.)

There's also something to be said for the content. No matter who you get to animate for anime, they can only reproduce human/animal/tree swaying in wind mechanics to a point. Increasing the fps here will only work to a point before it starts to look unnatural, and interpolating would pretty much end up looking unnaturally smooth at best. If you've ever watched anime on a 120Hz TV (or 240Hz) you'll know what I mean. Interpolating pans of static backgrounds might turn out alright, but unless you have a lot of pans you'd be wasting the extra fps more than you're actually using it.

Live action, on the other hand, I think would respond very well to an increase in recording/boradcasting framerate because you're working with natural motion (not simulating it). I think interpolating up LA wouldn't look as weird as interpolating up anime...but I don't think I've seen any LA on a 120Hz TV so I can't say for sure.

I don't think completely cg stuff like what shows up in AMVs (geometric shapes spinning and the like), or motion capture cg stuff like what was in JC's Avatar would suffer either (from being at 60 vs 48).

tl;dr:
unless most of the pans/motion in your amv is added by you, anything over 30fps is gonna probably look odd. non-anime stuff is a different story
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Re: Your opinion on framerates

Postby Bauzi » Sun Sep 05, 2010 3:26 am

One year ago me and a friend rendered out some testfiles in 60fps and original 29.97fps. The video was a totaly different experience. Not bad though. I'm sorry that I already deleted the files and can't share it.

I thought about using 30fps for some scenes that are not meant to be shown in 60fps and to avoid the jerky feeling on them. I think that's possible with tricking the program in rendering out intermediate clips in 30fps and mixing them together with the 60fps composition. I haven't tested it though.

Thank you for bringing up the 48fps example! It really looks like a good solution for semi smooth anmation.

The thing with 60fps is that we are used to 24fps, because that's cinema format. We used it all the time and we got used to it so much. If we would've used 60fps in the first place than slow framerates like 24 would look jerky to us.

@Kariudo:
Do you know the plug in Twixtor for interpolating frames? I think it's definantly made for live action footage. Have a look:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9uVbhB8czI

I tried it with anime clips in some parts of my videos, but I wasn't able to make such smooth animations with it. It often ended to look very unusal and jerky.
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Re: Your opinion on framerates

Postby Kariudo » Sun Sep 05, 2010 3:37 am

Yeah, that looks pretty good to me. Wonder if it would look as nice with stuff like walking.

Also on a different note, I'm sure I could work the Nyquist sampling rate into my previous post somewhere. I'm not going to, but I could...
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Re: Your opinion on framerates

Postby mirkosp » Sun Sep 05, 2010 4:30 am

Bauzi wrote:I thought about using 30fps for some scenes that are not meant to be shown in 60fps and to avoid the jerky feeling on them. I think that's possible with tricking the program in rendering out intermediate clips in 30fps and mixing them together with the 60fps composition. I haven't tested it though.

The matroska format allows you to mux timecodes in the file to have different part of the video have different framerates (variable framerate). Another easy way would just be rendering the various segments at the framerate you want them, encode them separately and just append them in matroska, so you wouldn't even have to bother with dealing with timecodes (editing programs are not VFR aware so it makes VFR editing a pain/close to impossible experience without splitting up the project into various timelines).
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Re: Your opinion on framerates

Postby NeoQuixotic » Sun Sep 05, 2010 6:15 am

I still prefer 24 fps since anything 30 and above to me just looks too normal or real. Watching movies on 120/240 Hz HDTVs with motion interpolation on makes me want to stab someone. I like the slight jerkiness and blurriness (depending on the shutter speed used of course) of 24 fps since it separates the image from reality. I am open to seeing more examples, but real world stuff like maybe a short film test would be ideal.
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Re: Your opinion on framerates

Postby Zarxrax » Sun Sep 05, 2010 11:07 am

Personally I don't mind the "weird and unnatural" feeling for a short video, because I tend to actually like the way it looks, even though I'm often noticing that effect, which may take my mind off of the content itself. If you have a pretty video and want people to admire it, I think a smooth framerate is definitely something that will cause it to be admired.

As for the samples themselves, I thought the 24p one was obviously inferior to the others, but I couldn't really tell much difference between the 48 and 60fps versions.
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Re: Your opinion on framerates

Postby ngsilver » Mon Sep 06, 2010 1:03 pm

Well, my system started to choke on the 60fps version so I will only weight in on the 24 and 48 versions. It was very obvious that the 48fps was a lot smoother then the 24 version. For a rendered video like this one in a way it does look better. Though to me it looks more like I'm playing a video game or watching in-game footage rather then watching a video or movie. The 24fps preserved the cadence that I am used to for movies and as such to me felt more natural simply because I was watching a video and not playing a game.

Normally I would call a 60fps video crap, but this clip didn't really look bad. That's because it didn't interpolate frames but rather properly rendered the frames. For me, when I watch moves and stuff on an HD tv that has 120 or 240 hz technology I always turn off the interpolation because it just looks horrid, hurts my eyes, and doesn't preserve the cadence of film. As a somewhat cinemaphile I do prefer that cadence so personally I find the 24fps clip more appealing.

As far as using this for AMV work, I don't think it's really worth it. You really have only 2 options, interpolate the footage or double the cadence. The interpolation option will give you the 'wavy foot' effect like we saw in some of Nostromo's videos that he used twixtor on, while the double frame option will just give you a video at 48fps (assuming you're originally working with 24fps footage) that still will have that jerky look to it simply because of the material used.
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Re: Your opinion on framerates

Postby Zarxrax » Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:23 pm

Don't forget it's also possible to just increase the speed of the source footage up to the new framerate, as I did in my 58008 video. It doesn't interpolate anything, but obviously this can't be used on all types of videos.
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Re: Your opinion on framerates

Postby Niotex » Tue Sep 07, 2010 9:53 pm

I can shoot some 60fps footage and treat it the same way I did those renders. However the resolution will be 320x240. I sadly lack a proper DSLR. That being said I can splice together the 24 and 48 into a side by side comparison. 60 will be too tricky and considering most people don't notice the difference between 48 and 60 it'd be too much of a hassle to mux that in as well.

It will be far from perfect but it might give a better comparison.
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Re: Your opinion on framerates

Postby Bauzi » Wed Sep 08, 2010 4:36 am

Niotex wrote:I can shoot some 60fps footage and treat it the same way I did those renders. However the resolution will be 320x240. I sadly lack a proper DSLR. That being said I can splice together the 24 and 48 into a side by side comparison. 60 will be too tricky and considering most people don't notice the difference between 48 and 60 it'd be too much of a hassle to mux that in as well.

It will be far from perfect but it might give a better comparison.

I want to buy a EOS 7D and before I buy my own one I'll make some tests with it on the next Tuesday-Thursday. If you want I can make you some nice comparison between 60fps and other framerates in awesome 720p :o
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Re: Your opinion on framerates

Postby mirkosp » Wed Sep 08, 2010 5:40 am

The issue is that getting from 59.94 down to 48 or 24 isn't fair since neither 24 nor 48 are divisor of 60... so you'd be getting a jerkyness related to how frames are dropped. Think like the jerkiness you get when telecining: it doesn't mean that 23.976 is smoother than 29.97 as a framerate, just that changing framerate like that isn't possible without having an impact on the motion's smoothness. And we certainly don't want to blend the frames either. The only fair and meaningful comparison from a 59.94 shooting would be with 29.97.
There is a reason why I say that the digital created content comparison was the most fair way to compare framerates despite not encompassing all contents...
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Re: Your opinion on framerates

Postby Bauzi » Thu Sep 09, 2010 3:45 am

Love this topic! So much new and exciting to learn *_*
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