Cyrix's SUPER easy ripping tutorial (Windows)

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Re: Cyrix's SUPER easy ripping tutorial (Windows)

Postby Zarxrax » Wed Aug 18, 2010 9:20 pm

Super wont cause VLC to have problems, because VLC is entirely self-contained and does not rely on anything on the system itself. Also the problem is not with super itself working. It can break OTHER software thats on your computer, and thats the problem. And when you notice that other software isn't working right, you may not even have any idea that super is causing the problem. You might just think that the other software sucks because it isn't working right.
The real problem here, is that super is often recommended to noobish users who don't really know what they are doing. Now, giving these users something to make their lives easier is not a problem. But when the software is known to cause some serious problems, then THAT is a huge issue. Because the people who are mostly using super don't understand the underlying things that are going on with their computer, then when a problem does arise, then they have absolutely NO idea what to do about it.
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Re: Cyrix's SUPER easy ripping tutorial (Windows)

Postby Athena » Wed Aug 18, 2010 9:23 pm

Cyrix wrote:Crop the edges? Do you scale up the video to fill the space you cropped off?


Typically, yes. Of course that's not exactly the horror you're making it out to be. The DVD software would do this anyhow. Overscan. And you would need to adjust for aspect ratio or flag it anyhow.

Since that's a progressive DVD any issues you think you see are with the original. You can't see the differnce from the different portions because there is no quality difference.


I can't see atoms either, but science tells me they exist. Likewise, DV is a lossy codec, just because my eyes can't see the difference, that doesn't mean the computer can't, and editing with lossy footage and then rendering it out in more lossy footage and then encoding that into an additional lossy codec for distribution... It adds up. The only time your footage should ever be lossy is that last step, distribution.

Preview rendering isn't work. Don't act like laziness plays a part in pressing enter. I just don't get paid hourly to edit so I have no reason to waste my time rendering clips with no effects.on them. I already deal with rendering effects and transitions. You sound like you're bitter modern editors don't face the hardships you did so you want them to toil away and waste time.


You don't need to preview render lossless codecs if you set your previews to ALSO be that lossless codec. I thought you meant when you applied transitions and effects. There's no need to render something that is all straight cuts.

No, see, I am bitter, but not about that. I'm bitter about this entire instant gratification culture that has grown up. We want our scanlations right now, we want our fansubs right now, we want to cut corners and make a video in a matter of hours, upload it to YouTube immediately, and watch while the ego-stroking, but useless and uncritical comments flow on in. That makes me bitter.

SUPER is perfect for novice editors who don't have the knowledge, time, or interest in the absurd hurdles of avi synth. They won't notice or care about supposed quality problems of incredible insignificance. Why.discourage them from a practical method of simultaneous ripping and converting?


Because if you're going to do something, you should do it right. You don't change the rules of the game just because someone hasn't learned to play effectively yet. No, what you have them do is practice. I will always discourage inappropriate and ineffectual "short cuts." If you don't have the knowledge, you learn it. If you don't have the time, you adjust your schedule if it's important to you. If you don't have the interest in doing things right, why even bother? I don't care if it is just a hobby, take some pride in what you do.

Avisynth doesn't do anything with decryption. You require a ripper for that. Avisynth works as a frameserver, offering up frames to other programs with filter commands applied.
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Re: Cyrix's SUPER easy ripping tutorial (Windows)

Postby Cyrix » Wed Aug 18, 2010 9:55 pm

Also the problem is not with super itself working. It can break OTHER software thats on your computer, and thats the problem.

This is why I pointed out it didn't break VLC, VLC being OTHER software. It also hasn't broken anything else. Maybe they fixed that? Shared DLLs are Windows' mortal enemy.

Typically, yes. Of course that's not exactly the horror you're making it out to be. The DVD software would do this anyhow. Overscan. And you would need to adjust for aspect ratio or flag it anyhow.

No, it's not a horror (did I say it was?), it's just that cropping it is unnecessary because you can still scale it up past the frame edges in the editor.

Likewise, DV is a lossy codec, just because my eyes can't see the difference, that doesn't mean the computer can't, and editing with lossy footage and then rendering it out in more lossy footage and then encoding that into an additional lossy codec for distribution... It adds up. The only time your footage should ever be lossy is that last step, distribution.

Did you work in the video industry? When I worked with a production company we used DV-AVI (or MOV on a MAC) for everything. Capture from camera to DV-AVI, edit the DV-AVI, export a DV-AVI and plug that into whatever DVD creation software we used. The miniscule loss of quality was considered acceptable for time and space tradeoffs. Since then the contract work I've done has always been Premiere with DV-AVI - small companies making 480i/p videos, but everyone worked the same.

Some people are going to cons, but most of these videos end up on this website and maybe on Youtube. If it's a novice editor working on an AMV for fun, do they need extremely competitive video quality with people counting the compression artifacts? When I watch a video, if it's not shit quality, I enjoy it for the AMV, not for the codecs involved in making it.

I can't see atoms either, but science tells me they exist.

You need better scissors, you're wasting atoms.

There's no need to render something that is all straight cuts.

That's good to know.

We want our scanlations right now, we want our fansubs right now, we want to cut corners and make a video in a matter of hours

I spend a very long amount of time on my videos. There's always going to be people who do above-professional-leve work and people with a god damned hobby doing something for fun. People who really care are still going to use AVI-synth but hopefully some people who don't want to deal with it can make some videos without it. If you can't accept there are people with different levels of involvement and dedication in making art without getting paid to do so, maybe you shouldn't be on the internet. It's ridiculously close-minded that you want to enforce your expectations of quality on everyone in the world, and prevent people from doing things the way they want to because it doesn't suit your personal standards.

Because if you're going to do something, you should do it right.

If you're going to do something, you should accept there is usually more than one way to do it.

You don't change the rules of the game just because someone hasn't learned to play effectively yet.

GOOD GOD. Have you heard of children's sports? Softball? Playing a game on the "easy" difficulty setting?

I don't care if it is just a hobby, take some pride in what you do.

You have no right to tell others what level of pride they should take from their work. You have no right to tell them they don't deserve pride in their work because they didn't do it your way.
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Re: Cyrix's SUPER easy ripping tutorial (Windows)

Postby Athena » Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:17 pm

Cyrix wrote:No, it's not a horror (did I say it was?), it's just that cropping it is unnecessary because you can still scale it up past the frame edges in the editor.


You should have your footage exactly as you need it to be in a lossless format before it even touches an editing suite.

Did you work in the video industry? When I worked with a production company we used DV-AVI (or MOV on a MAC) for everything. Capture from camera to DV-AVI, edit the DV-AVI, export a DV-AVI and plug that into whatever DVD creation software we used. The miniscule loss of quality was considered acceptable for time and space tradeoffs. Since then the contract work I've done has always been Premiere with DV-AVI - small companies making 480i/p videos, but everyone worked the same.


Yes, from about 1998-2006. I've worked on linear editing setups like Play's Trinity with multiple SVHS cams, to using mini DV Canons and JVC cams and editing on Windows NT with Premiere 5.1c, to Avid, to the Premiere Pro series, and to finally switching over entirely to Mac. I still use Premiere Pro, but have plenty of experience with the Final Cut family. I worked for a TV station, made news segments, filmed a documentary on drunk driving, and made TV commercials for Democratic candidates. However, this is largely irrelevant to the current discussion because...

As I have explained elsewhere, the process you describe is different from what we do as AMV editors. From camera to editor to DVD authoring, you (or your production team) control the input at each step. DV was absolutely acceptable for SD TV, and we used it. It was interlaced, we left it that way, edited it that way, and authored it to DVD that way. We didn't have to do any processing on the footage, UNLESS the cameraman (small station, so most of us shot, edited, and authored our own segments) screwed up on white balancing, etc. Of course, SVHS tape was usually progressive, but that was still captured into DV.

However, when dealing with anime DVDs, we do not have control over the initial source. We buy it like it is. Then we have to spend time undoing any damage done to the source due to the original format or encoding. We have a lot of processing to do. That processing occurs between ripping/decrypting and placing the footage into the editing suite. Going straight from the VOB to the editing suite, even after a "conversion" to DV-AVI, is absolutely useless. You still need to filter. Something I never had to do when I was working in TV.

Also, DV is a group of codecs, AVI/MOV are containers. Don't get them confused.

Some people are going to cons, but most of these videos end up on this website and maybe on Youtube. If it's a novice editor working on an AMV for fun, do they need extremely competitive video quality with people counting the compression artifacts? When I watch a video, if it's not shit quality, I enjoy it for the AMV, not for the codecs involved in making it.


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This isn't about needing. It's about wanting. If you don't have the interest in your own video to do things the way they should be done, why should I have any interest either?

I spend a very long amount of time on my videos. There's always going to be people who do above-professional-leve work and people with a god damned hobby doing something for fun. People who really care are still going to use AVI-synth but hopefully some people who don't want to deal with it can make some videos without it. If you can't accept there are people with different levels of involvement and dedication in making art without getting paid to do so, maybe you shouldn't be on the internet. It's ridiculously close-minded that you want to enforce your expectations of quality on everyone in the world, and prevent people from doing things the way they want to because it doesn't suit your personal standards.


Maybe you do, but you're playing enabler to those that won't.

I'm not getting paid for this. Not anymore. Didn't pay very much anyhow. I can accept the fact that there are people with different levels of involvement and dedication to any hobby, that doesn't mean I'm going to sit back and pretend I think that's as valid as someone who puts in the work. I'm no cultural relativist. Not all efforts are equal.

Do I look like I have any way of "enforcing" the community standards? About the only thing I can do is what I am already doing, exerting peer pressure by explaining why those standards are the standards of the community, not just my own, and how there are reasons why they are the standards. Yet, I cannot stop you if you wish to use inferior methodologies that limit your ability to grow and improve, and you can upload whatever you want (unfortunately, in my view) to local as long as it's recognisable as an AMV. There is no way to prevent people from doing whatever they want if they've a mind to do it. The only thing I can do is plead with them not to.

If you're going to do something, you should accept there is usually more than one way to do it.


And you should recognise some ways are better than others. This isn't one of those better ways.

GOOD GOD. Have you heard of children's sports? Softball? Playing a game on the "easy" difficulty setting?


Are you a child? Do you wish to be treated like a child? If so, then your argument might have merit. However, even the genuine children on the Org often insist they do not want to be treated like children, your argument has no weight when all the participants claim to be deserving of an adult environment.

Softball is a distinct sport. It is not some diet-Baseball, not anymore. Speaking of children, I've got a team of 12 year old girls who would beat the crap out of you for suggesting that it is.

You have no right to tell others what level of pride they should take from their work. You have no right to tell them they don't deserve pride in their work because they didn't do it your way.


I have every right to tell people that there is a skill set they must utilise to improve their videos, and that if they don't acquire that skill set, then they are not showing that video improvement is a priority to them. That's fine, but I won't watch their videos. I will watch videos with very weak technique as long as I believe the editor is making an earnest attempt to improve. Those that not only do not improve, but slap away the hand that offers instruction, will find me a most unwilling viewer.
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Re: Cyrix's SUPER easy ripping tutorial (Windows)

Postby Phantasmagoriat » Thu Aug 19, 2010 2:13 am

Holy Hell.

The guy is just as entitled to make his shit as you are yours.
After all... what's one piece of trash over another... I mean... wait... you know I'm joking right <3

just saying
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Re: Cyrix's SUPER easy ripping tutorial (Windows)

Postby Athena » Thu Aug 19, 2010 3:22 am

Phantasmagoriat wrote:Holy Hell.

The guy is just as entitled to make his shit as you are yours.
After all... what's one piece of trash over another... I mean... wait... you know I'm joking right <3

just saying


I think you're confusing just who is trying to limit whose rights. Cyrix is free to use this process, and he is free to offer his opinions. He is, however, in the minority, and others have just as much right to offer their own opinions about the ineffectiveness of his process. Apparently, he does not agree that others have just as much right to tell him he's wrong as he has to say that he is right.

I'm not saying he can't advocate for SUPER, I am saying he shouldn't. That's all.
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Re: Cyrix's SUPER easy ripping tutorial (Windows)

Postby Cyrix » Thu Aug 19, 2010 3:30 am

No, you're saying people who don't do it your way shouldn't even try because their work is trash, they are lazy and cheap, and their work literally isn't worth watching. Your attitude is reprehensible. I'm not wasting more time talking to you.
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Re: Cyrix's SUPER easy ripping tutorial (Windows)

Postby Athena » Thu Aug 19, 2010 4:20 am

Cyrix wrote:No, you're saying people who don't do it your way shouldn't even try because their work is trash, they are lazy and cheap, and their work literally isn't worth watching. Your attitude is reprehensible. I'm not wasting more time talking to you.


I never said any of the above. I do not hold the opinion you claim I do, and I never have. At no point did I say the words "trash" or "cheap" and I only asked if you were lazy: you, specifically, and no one else. My attitude is that anything worth doing is worth doing well. I also said that the only videos I am not interested in watching are videos by those who turn around and bite the hand that feeds them when it comes to constructive criticism.

Do not put words in my mouth or accuse me of being something I am not.
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Re: Cyrix's SUPER easy ripping tutorial (Windows)

Postby Mister Hatt » Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:47 am

Cyrix wrote:I use VLC player
You are forbidden from giving advice in the future. Thanks for playing.

Cyrix wrote:I forgot to mention SUPER doesn't seem to be able to convert heavily copy-protected DVDs (Wolf's Rain turns into a garbled mess, but this also happens when I try to watch a VOB file off the disc by itself with VLC). Does AVI-synth bypass copy-protection more effectively?
So you don't even understand how SUPER works, or avisynth. AVS loads already decrypted content. SUPER uses an old version of libdvdcss as does VLC.

Cyrix wrote:Crop the edges? Do you scale up the video to fill the space you cropped off?
No, he means learn what aspect ratio is.

Cyrix wrote:I'm not sure if you understand what I'm doing. The only reason to leave a 2 second buffer is because the TC is in seconds and you might miss a few frames, or it might just be off by a second. This is rarely an issue but a few times I lost around 15 frames so I started using a small buffer. There's no problem in accuracy with the resulting DV AVI because it's frame accurate. There're no problems with transports, streams, or seeking.
So you didn't understand anything I said. If you cut on a GOP marker and force closed GOPs in the output stream, you won't have those cutting accuracy issues because it will snap to scene edges. If the timecode for cutting isn't in raw frames, then it sucks. Also you have no idea what a transport stream is or what I meant by seeking. Have you even read the avtech3 guide, shitty as it might be?

Cyrix wrote:Are you getting your dvds from Japan? I said ntsc. If you get it in America its already 29.97fps. There is no loss in quality. Also not everything is interlaced.
Japan use NTSC you dolt, however anime isn't 29.970fps even if it's encoded so on the disk (with a few exceptions). Please learn what hard telecine is.

Cyrix wrote:Did you work in the video industry? When I worked with a production company we used DV-AVI (or MOV on a MAC) for everything. Capture from camera to DV-AVI, edit the DV-AVI, export a DV-AVI and plug that into whatever DVD creation software we used. The miniscule loss of quality was considered acceptable for time and space tradeoffs. Since then the contract work I've done has always been Premiere with DV-AVI - small companies making 480i/p videos, but everyone worked the same.
I'm a professional encoder and for high bitrate lossy we use ProRes, HDCAM, or REDCode. If you're using Premiere in the industry, then your company must be pretty low-budget/quality. Same for DV. Kio has been working in a professional editing environment since before PCs were even used. I think we both trump you there.

Cyrix wrote:I spend a very long amount of time on my videos. There's always going to be people who do above-professional-leve work and people with a god damned hobby doing something for fun. People who really care are still going to use AVI-synth but hopefully some people who don't want to deal with it can make some videos without it. If you can't accept there are people with different levels of involvement and dedication in making art without getting paid to do so, maybe you shouldn't be on the internet. It's ridiculously close-minded that you want to enforce your expectations of quality on everyone in the world, and prevent people from doing things the way they want to because it doesn't suit your personal standards.
Your work is nowhere near professional level, or even skilled enthusiast level. From the look of your guide, you don't spend much time at all seeing as it only takes 20 minutes to rip, index, and IVTC. Additionally, stop moralfagging. On the internet, what's to stop someone from trying to force their view on others like they're the greatest thing since themselves? Kio and Zarx are both well regarded in the AMV community and both consist of maybe five people in said community that I don't consider completely retarded. As for me being a dick, I'm a better encoder than you and that's not going to change any time soon you bigot. You're telling Kio to not be close minded yet in doing so you're guilty of exactly that.

Cyrix wrote:GOOD GOD. Have you heard of children's sports? Softball? Playing a game on the "easy" difficulty setting?
Nobody plays Touhou on easymodo.

All in all, you're wasting people's time and then being stupid. You say you don't want to index but you don't even realise that SUPER is indexing. To conclude: dongz
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Re: Cyrix's SUPER easy ripping tutorial (Windows)

Postby Cyrix » Thu Aug 19, 2010 8:22 am

You are forbidden from giving advice in the future. Thanks for playing.

VLC plays EVERYTHING with no performance issues. What do you use?

No, he means learn what aspect ratio is.

Crop the edges for the aspect ratio? Unless you mean fullscreen-to-widescreen cropping, which is stupid, cropping the edges isn't related to the aspect ratio. I assumed he meant the few rows/columns of black/solid color that border most DVD images.

If the timecode for cutting isn't in raw frames, then it sucks.

DV-AVI timecode is in raw frames. For the buffer I'm just talking about ripping the clip. You're tacking problems onto the codec that don't occur with the codec. You aren't dealing with an MPEG transport stream and there are no related seeking issues. Also, even the avtech3 guide says "Sometimes a bit of distortion can happen at the points you cut at, so it is best to include a little bit extra on both sides", you buffoon.

Japan use NTSC you dolt, however anime isn't 29.970fps

29.97 is part of the definition of NTSC.

ProRes, HDCAM, or REDCode.

Aren't these all HD formats?

You say you don't want to index but you don't even realise that SUPER is indexing

Right, SUPER is indexing. Am I doing it? Am I using multiple programs to do it or is it happening automatically?
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Re: Cyrix's SUPER easy ripping tutorial (Windows)

Postby Athena » Thu Aug 19, 2010 8:49 am

Cyrix wrote:VLC plays EVERYTHING with no performance issues. What do you use?


This is not true. I mean, that's not my opinion. That's just a fact. You are actually factually inaccurate.

Crop the edges for the aspect ratio? Unless you mean fullscreen-to-widescreen cropping, which is stupid, cropping the edges isn't related to the aspect ratio. I assumed he meant the few rows/columns of black/solid color that border most DVD images.


I meant both. You must do both. And you need to crop before you resize or flag. This should be done prior to editing. Not in the editing suite.

29.97 is part of the definition of NTSC.


*sigh* But anime is not animated at 29.97, which means a conversion has been made you need to undo, even if the disc itself is encoded at 29.97.

Aren't these all HD formats?


ProRes 422 and 4444 are SD and HD. HDCAM is an HD version of Digital Betacam. REDCODE is also both HD and SD, it's an ultra high resolution codec, iirc. All can be used by the Final Cut family.

Right, SUPER is indexing. Am I doing it? Am I using multiple programs to do it or is it happening automatically?


Now that's just a silly response. Yes, you're doing it. The difference is in what comes before (decryption) and what comes after (processing).

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Re: Cyrix's SUPER easy ripping tutorial (Windows)

Postby Mister Hatt » Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:09 am

Cyrix wrote:Right, SUPER is indexing. Am I doing it? Am I using multiple programs to do it or is it happening automatically?
SUPER uses mencoder and/or ffmpeg depending on what it decides is better. Both of these use libavformat. A DVD VOB file is an MPEG-2 Program Stream. libavformat cannot seek properly in MPEG2-PS, it can only read sequentially. It therefore builds an index so it knows where things are and can then seek and do your cut. You were saying?
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Re: Cyrix's SUPER easy ripping tutorial (Windows)

Postby Cyrix » Thu Aug 19, 2010 3:51 pm

This is not true. I mean, that's not my opinion. That's just a fact. You are actually factually inaccurate.

What do you use? Also, find me something it doesn't play, because it plays FLV, MOV, AVI, WMV, VOB, MP4, every MPEG, etc, and within the containers XviD, DivX, h263, h264, DV-AVI, Cinepak, every MPEG again, etc etc etc.

SUPER uses mencoder and/or ffmpeg depending on what it decides is better. Both of these use libavformat. A DVD VOB file is an MPEG-2 Program Stream. libavformat cannot seek properly in MPEG2-PS, it can only read sequentially. It therefore builds an index so it knows where things are and can then seek and do your cut. You were saying?

It doesn't involve any input on my part nor the use of multiple problems. Like I said.
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Re: Cyrix's SUPER easy ripping tutorial (Windows)

Postby Cyrix » Thu Aug 19, 2010 3:51 pm

Wow. *multiple programs.
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Re: Cyrix's SUPER easy ripping tutorial (Windows)

Postby Mister Hatt » Sat Aug 21, 2010 4:46 am

You said VLC plays h264 correctly. It doesn't. It also doesn't support FLV or MKV properly, and on VOB, TS, and M2TS it is iffy. It doesn't support MOV or MP4 properly either. It fails on AVI and WMV at times too. That's effectively every container you listed. As far as codecs, it craps bricks on non-1:1 PAR XviD/DivX. I haven't tried DV or Cinepak in it, nor h263, but I imagine they are just as broken. MPEG in VLC depends on which branch seeing as almost every codec you listed can be classed as "MPEG".
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