What to do!?

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Re: What to do!?

Postby EvaFan » Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:31 am

Regios wrote:Or do I really need to buy a new optical drive + editing software to fill the gaps?


IMO this is your best answer, if your serious about wanting to become an amv editor.

But you really should just look at the pros/cons of both and just decide for yourself.

The way I see it though, it's even more of a waste to own blu-rays and not use them to edit with, they are very costly and it just doesn't make sense to download the same material after you spent that much money on it. Besides that, a new drive would benefit you more in the long run if you intend to buy more blu-rays. Not to mention, most of the org has turned into substantial quality whores so you would be doing them all a favor as well by making your amvs 1080p+, 4d, and omni directional sound support.
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Re: What to do!?

Postby mirkosp » Tue Apr 27, 2010 3:04 am

I said crf not cfr. Crf stands for Constant RateFactor, is commonly named "Constant Quality," and is the encoding mode of x264 which applies a different quantizer to every frame to get a seemingly identical quality throughout the whole thing. It has nothing to do with framerate, which is what you were referring to with vfr.
As for screenshots, here's a screenshot of Qwaser: http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/1479/00002m2tssnapshot053220.png
Quite ugly, you'll agree. Here's a screenshot from Bakemonogatari for comparison: http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/5682/00000m2tssnapshot010522.png
Now we start talking, am I right? :P

@pwolf: I was referring to upscale in general. Air is upscaled from DVD, Qwaser is 540 upscaled to 1080, and Macross Zero is 720 upscaled to 1080. It could have been possible to render at a higher res... or at least to upscale more properly (eg: Kanon 2006... it is 720 upscaled to 1080, but looks almost as if it was native 1080: http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/1345/00000m2tssnapshot183720.png).
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Re: What to do!?

Postby Athena » Tue Apr 27, 2010 3:26 am

Qwaser is a shitty anime. Maybe they figured as long as there were enough jiggling boobs, no one would notice the jaggies.
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Re: What to do!?

Postby Mister Hatt » Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:04 am

kickass331 wrote:I always use x264, it is the best codec in the world until h265 comes out (joint effort by mpeg and 3rd party)
Almost everything you have said is complete garbage. By the time that standard stops being hypothetical and is actually implemented, wavelet codecs should be far more prevalent, which would kind of defeat the purpose of a better DCT codec. People are getting access to higher and higher bandwidth/storage options so having better compression isn't really that big of a problem besides for data efficiency. You're also confusing x264 with H.264. Stop doing that.

kickass331 wrote:I don't do multipass since it's more likely to fail in vegas, since vegas is optimized for 1 pass. Also, I don't do vfr encoding, I always use IVTC material, when I get blu-rays it will be film material. There is no need for vfr, that is unrelated to bitrate. Also, can you link to some Qwaser HD screencaps and some good HD Anime screencaps for reference. Of course this would have to be Japanese Blu-Ray, since I have 5 R1 blu-rays, the best looking ones being Evangelion 1.11 and FullMetal Alchemist : The Conqueror of Shamballa
FMA's troll movie was an upscale. Not all blurays are FILM material. VFR impacts bitrate, and even post-IVTC you can end up with VFR.
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Re: What to do!?

Postby kickass331 » Tue Apr 27, 2010 6:42 am

mirkosp wrote:I said crf not cfr. Crf stands for Constant RateFactor, is commonly named "Constant Quality," and is the encoding mode of x264 which applies a different quantizer to every frame to get a seemingly identical quality throughout the whole thing. It has nothing to do with framerate, which is what you were referring to with vfr.
As for screenshots, here's a screenshot of Qwaser: http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/1479/00002m2tssnapshot053220.png
Quite ugly, you'll agree. Here's a screenshot from Bakemonogatari for comparison: http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/5682/00000m2tssnapshot010522.png
Now we start talking, am I right? :P

@pwolf: I was referring to upscale in general. Air is upscaled from DVD, Qwaser is 540 upscaled to 1080, and Macross Zero is 720 upscaled to 1080. It could have been possible to render at a higher res... or at least to upscale more properly (eg: Kanon 2006... it is 720 upscaled to 1080, but looks almost as if it was native 1080: http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/1345/00000m2tssnapshot183720.png).


i had a feeling that you misspelled cfr for a reason. Yes I've heard of quality encoding, 1 pass, 2 pass, npass, and quality are the 4 mainstream options. I use one pass.
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Re: What to do!?

Postby kickass331 » Tue Apr 27, 2010 6:47 am

Mister Hatt wrote:
kickass331 wrote:I always use x264, it is the best codec in the world until h265 comes out (joint effort by mpeg and 3rd party)
Almost everything you have said is complete garbage. By the time that standard stops being hypothetical and is actually implemented, wavelet codecs should be far more prevalent, which would kind of defeat the purpose of a better DCT codec. People are getting access to higher and higher bandwidth/storage options so having better compression isn't really that big of a problem besides for data efficiency. You're also confusing x264 with H.264. Stop doing that.

kickass331 wrote:I don't do multipass since it's more likely to fail in vegas, since vegas is optimized for 1 pass. Also, I don't do vfr encoding, I always use IVTC material, when I get blu-rays it will be film material. There is no need for vfr, that is unrelated to bitrate. Also, can you link to some Qwaser HD screencaps and some good HD Anime screencaps for reference. Of course this would have to be Japanese Blu-Ray, since I have 5 R1 blu-rays, the best looking ones being Evangelion 1.11 and FullMetal Alchemist : The Conqueror of Shamballa
FMA's troll movie was an upscale. Not all blurays are FILM material. VFR impacts bitrate, and even post-IVTC you can end up with VFR.


i had a feeling it was, however I'm blown away by that blu-ray more than any other upscale / even blu rays like the dark knight. And yes I know the blu-ray format supports irregular things. It does 720p/480p/480/1080i/1080p at 24/25/30 fps in VC-1, MPEG-2, MPEG-4 AFAIK. I could be wrong. VFR Impacts bitrate, but only if a large portion is much higher bitrate, for example a 120fps OP+ED Raw, not when VFR maintains about the same. And even if you can IVTC with vfr, I always encode things at 23.976 fps cfr, since I don't see the need for vfr. VFR isn't an accurate representation of the actual number of image data available.
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Re: What to do!?

Postby Mister Hatt » Tue Apr 27, 2010 7:05 am

kickass331 wrote:i had a feeling that you misspelled cfr for a reason. Yes I've heard of quality encoding, 1 pass, 2 pass, npass, and quality are the 4 mainstream options. I use one pass.
He didn't misspell it at all, he wrote CRF. You don't know much about x264 do you? You have constant quantizer, constant ratefactor, and average bitrate coding options. Bitrate averaging can be done over as many analysis passes as you want but it really needs only one. When you say you do 1 pass, what do you mean, because that can be either a first pass, a second pass without analysis, constant quantization, or constant ratefactoring. Be more specific.

kickass331 wrote:i had a feeling it was, however I'm blown away by that blu-ray more than any other upscale / even blu rays like the dark knight.
So you're blind, nice that we've established that. The only reason an upscaled BD would ever look better is that it has more bitrate, unless it was mastered from the DVD in the first place in which case lol Yukikaze.

kickass331 wrote:And yes I know the blu-ray format supports irregular things. It does 720p/480p/480/1080i/1080p at 24/25/30 fps in VC-1, MPEG-2, MPEG-4 AFAIK. I could be wrong.
In what way are those irregular? Regularity would imply it has a norm, and you don't even know what the norm is. It does more than just those framerates too. Actual codecs in use are VC-1, MPEG2, and MPEG4-AVC.

kickass331 wrote:VFR Impacts bitrate, but only if a large portion is much higher bitrate, for example a 120fps OP+ED Raw, not when VFR maintains about the same.
You completely misunderstand the concept of bitrate, along with how VFR works.

kickass331 wrote:And even if you can IVTC with vfr, I always encode things at 23.976 fps cfr, since I don't see the need for vfr. VFR isn't an accurate representation of the actual number of image data available.
Then your motion will be broken, and as I said above, you don't understand how VFR works.
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Re: What to do!?

Postby kickass331 » Tue Apr 27, 2010 7:28 am

Mister Hatt wrote:
kickass331 wrote:i had a feeling that you misspelled cfr for a reason. Yes I've heard of quality encoding, 1 pass, 2 pass, npass, and quality are the 4 mainstream options. I use one pass.
He didn't misspell it at all, he wrote CRF. You don't know much about x264 do you? You have constant quantizer, constant ratefactor, and average bitrate coding options. Bitrate averaging can be done over as many analysis passes as you want but it really needs only one. When you say you do 1 pass, what do you mean, because that can be either a first pass, a second pass without analysis, constant quantization, or constant ratefactoring. Be more specific.

kickass331 wrote:i had a feeling it was, however I'm blown away by that blu-ray more than any other upscale / even blu rays like the dark knight.
So you're blind, nice that we've established that. The only reason an upscaled BD would ever look better is that it has more bitrate, unless it was mastered from the DVD in the first place in which case lol Yukikaze.

kickass331 wrote:And yes I know the blu-ray format supports irregular things. It does 720p/480p/480/1080i/1080p at 24/25/30 fps in VC-1, MPEG-2, MPEG-4 AFAIK. I could be wrong.
In what way are those irregular? Regularity would imply it has a norm, and you don't even know what the norm is. It does more than just those framerates too. Actual codecs in use are VC-1, MPEG2, and MPEG4-AVC.

kickass331 wrote:VFR Impacts bitrate, but only if a large portion is much higher bitrate, for example a 120fps OP+ED Raw, not when VFR maintains about the same.
You completely misunderstand the concept of bitrate, along with how VFR works.

kickass331 wrote:And even if you can IVTC with vfr, I always encode things at 23.976 fps cfr, since I don't see the need for vfr. VFR isn't an accurate representation of the actual number of image data available.
Then your motion will be broken, and as I said above, you don't understand how VFR works.

1st pass and why are there both crf and quant, I thought quality and quant were the same thing, sorry i like sham lol, irregular means why in the hell would anyone in their right mind use VC-1, it's only supported because microsoft wants money, and those are the same codecs I listed, I understand bitrate, it's data / time, if the framerate only varies by 2 fps it's no big deal, I never noticed problems with motion and I find 24 fps satisfactory for everything I've done. VFR is only necessary for things that aren't ntsc/pal/blu-ray, that have been upscaled fr-wise.
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Re: What to do!?

Postby Mister Hatt » Tue Apr 27, 2010 7:47 am

MPEG4 does not mean H.264. It can be multiple codecs (and containers). MPEG4-AVC is what bluray has. MPEG4-ASP for example is what XviD and DivX are. VC-1 is by no means a shitty codec, it just isn't as good as AVC. There are times when MPEG2 is better than AVC as well.

Constant ratefactor is there because it's useful, while constant quantizer is there for situations which require it, mostly for testing purposes. x264 is after all still in alpha.

VFR is usually used at 23.976fps and 29.970fps together, which is more than 2 fps difference and can reduce a 24 minute episode to 19 minutes. It does impact bitrate quite significantly. You probably don't notice motion problems because you don't seem to understand how anything works, and as you stated in regard to the FMA troll bluray, you're quite obviously blind. Your last sentence doesn't even make sense, especially as you grouped bluray as a picture coding standard like PAL and NTSC when in reality it's a format that uses those standards. I wonder if you even know how to IVTC something properly or not. A fair bit of anime for example is natively 29.970fps in the first place and doesn't require IVTC. Bakemonogatari for example is VFR with telecined, soft telecined, and progressive material all in a single episode on the DVD. You would fuck that up massively by IVTCing the entire thing.
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Re: What to do!?

Postby ZephyrStar » Tue Apr 27, 2010 9:52 am

(sorry, I don't like people that have more money spent on dvds of anime than my house and hummer h3)


>hummer h3

(TДT);
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Re: What to do!?

Postby Athena » Tue Apr 27, 2010 9:59 am

ZephyrStar wrote:
(sorry, I don't like people that have more money spent on dvds of anime than my house and hummer h3)


>hummer h3

(TДT);


I was too nice to mention this, but yeah. Not even a real Humvee. Bet he lives in the suburbs and the only thing he loads or moves is his golf clubs...

Also I could buy your hummer 3 several times over, but I choose to have a retirement instead.
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Re: What to do!?

Postby kickass331 » Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:01 pm

Mister Hatt wrote:MPEG4 does not mean H.264. It can be multiple codecs (and containers). MPEG4-AVC is what bluray has. MPEG4-ASP for example is what XviD and DivX are. VC-1 is by no means a shitty codec, it just isn't as good as AVC. There are times when MPEG2 is better than AVC as well.

Constant ratefactor is there because it's useful, while constant quantizer is there for situations which require it, mostly for testing purposes. x264 is after all still in alpha.

VFR is usually used at 23.976fps and 29.970fps together, which is more than 2 fps difference and can reduce a 24 minute episode to 19 minutes. It does impact bitrate quite significantly. You probably don't notice motion problems because you don't seem to understand how anything works, and as you stated in regard to the FMA troll bluray, you're quite obviously blind. Your last sentence doesn't even make sense, especially as you grouped bluray as a picture coding standard like PAL and NTSC when in reality it's a format that uses those standards. I wonder if you even know how to IVTC something properly or not. A fair bit of anime for example is natively 29.970fps in the first place and doesn't require IVTC. Bakemonogatari for example is VFR with telecined, soft telecined, and progressive material all in a single episode on the DVD. You would fuck that up massively by IVTCing the entire thing.

as for your MPEG-4 rant, I already know the difference between part 2 and part 10, but thanks for telling me what I already know. DivX is crap so it's stupid to even care that that is MPEG-4 because it is a POS codec and that is why it is not standardized on any disc. vfr is a stupid idea, if people do that I will simply split the media and IVTC the the telecine, force film the soft telecine, and preserve the progressive, btw I have IVTC'd a progressive DVD of the first bleach movie and all it did was basically make it look exactly the same. see my riding and soaring far video for that. and of course birate will differ if framerate fluctuates more than 2 fps, that's why I qualified my statement earlier, or are you ignoring me? the naotaku flcl videos look fine. I'm not blind, FMA is just a really great upscale. when I said pal and ntsc I was referring to dvds, blu rays are universally 720p,1080i,1080p so the 480i/576i and 480p/576p is not something that I wanted to discuss. the naotaku flcl videos will show you I can IVTC.
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Re: What to do!?

Postby mirkosp » Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:13 pm

You seem to not understand the issue: he was presenting you with the fact that some sources are, in fact, 29.97 to begin with, and forcing them to 23.976 would make the motion look jerky.
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Re: What to do!?

Postby kickass331 » Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:03 pm

mirkosp wrote:You seem to not understand the issue: he was presenting you with the fact that some sources are, in fact, 29.97 to begin with, and forcing them to 23.976 would make the motion look jerky.


29.976 is ntsc and only occurs with interlacing, 23.976 is the same amount of visual data. the 5th frame is a blended frame, it is called telecining. Footage that is not telecine does not need 23.976 fps, in that case it is 30fps progressive. It is ok to be 30 fps then. If something is PAL, 25 fps, or is not telecine and is ntsc, then it is better to force film 25 is close to 24, and material that is interlaced and not telecined is best matched to the source material with force film. Finding DVDs that are telecine is really an advantage and is the best version of interlaced material.
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Re: What to do!?

Postby mirkosp » Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:48 pm

kickass331 wrote:
mirkosp wrote:You seem to not understand the issue: he was presenting you with the fact that some sources are, in fact, 29.97 to begin with, and forcing them to 23.976 would make the motion look jerky.


29.976 is ntsc and only occurs with interlacing, 23.976 is the same amount of visual data. the 5th frame is a blended frame, it is called telecining. Footage that is not telecine does not need 23.976 fps, in that case it is 30fps progressive. It is ok to be 30 fps then. If something is PAL, 25 fps, or is not telecine and is ntsc, then it is better to force film 25 is close to 24, and material that is interlaced and not telecined is best matched to the source material with force film. Finding DVDs that are telecine is really an advantage and is the best version of interlaced material.

...you really don't understand. DVDs can be vfr. In fact, allow me to bring you an example. The DVDs of LOGH have both 23.976 telecined scenes and 29.97 full interlaced sequences. And yes, the 29.97 sequences are fully animated and so are the 23.976 one. Arbitrarily picking a framerate will make the motion of the other look jerky. If you still don't understand then I'll just quit trying. I'm not sure how much good helping a troll will do anyway.
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