Piracy promotes purchasing, especially amongst video editors

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Re: Piracy promotes purchasing, especially amongst video editors

Postby mirkosp » Tue Jan 12, 2010 4:32 pm

Just last week I was recommended Noein for editing purposes. Checked the first couple eps, liked it, thought it could work well with my idea, ordered the box and will likely come within thurstday or friday at most. I couldn't possibly just buy a 90 euros box without being sure I would even like the series... >_>
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Re: Piracy promotes purchasing, especially amongst video editors

Postby saetanigera » Sat Jan 23, 2010 11:32 pm

When I started righting this I didn't expect to right the beginning of an essay, but I've been reading up a bit and figured I'd share.

A key point in our copyright law is the copyright owner has to charge you. Even when large-scale punishments were taken on the order of about $5,000 per person the companies involved stated the settlements actually amounted to about 20% of the cost it took to take the people to court. It simply isn't cost effective, it's bad press, and you GUARANTEED that person wont buy from you vs the hope they might. Also, if they increase the settlements it doesn't matter very much...people simply don't have that much money sitting around.

A good AMV really is better for promoting an anime than any trailer I've ever seen (even though AMVs are illegal....more illegal than downloaded anime which only has ONE copyrighted source instead of 2-200). The companies don't view AMVs and doujins as competition for their products so they leave them alone.

Most anime producers are well aware that fansubs are an American's version of televised broadcasts. People buying the best 1/5th or 1/10th of the anime they download is actually very similar to how people buy box sets of American shows off TV. Even in America they tried to make recording TV with VCRs illegal which is why we have the (smaller than most people realize) fair use loopholes. So it's not surprising companies occasionally want to charge people to make an example even if they lose money on court fees,ect. when the fansubbing doesn't stop after a show is available in the U.S.

As someone mentioned, fansubs are perfectly good Japanese copies with foreign languages unobtrusively on the bottom of the screen and most of Japan's primary concern is the initial return on their investment which are DVD sales in Japan. If a show isn't licensed in the United States and they track an illegal download to your IP they simply aren't going to care enough to prosecute you. Sharing the content, on the other hand, can be enough to get their attention if it is on a large enough scale (which typically is not the end user).

Right now illegal downloading is very similar to the prohibition. Something like one-third the population is breaking the law on a semi-regular basis. This is obviously a bad situation for society and has resulted in massive changes in copyright laws with promises of more to come. It is interesting to note that the changes in 1997 made it a federal offense to break copyright law resulting in up to 5 years in jail....and they've never used it. It is much easier to take you to civilian court where 'innocent until proven guilty' is a myth (that is only for CRIMINAL offenses). It is even easier to demand an out-of-court settlement. (Note: the settlement always adds 'you must destroy all copies of the copyrighted material' because it ISN'T illegal to possess the material, just to share it)

Most cases don't even ask for a settlement, they simply send a letter to your internet provider (to pass down to you) that says politely but firmly 'IP xxx.xxx.xx.xxx has been using bittorrent/napster/whatever to illegally download "Our stuff" please stop or face possible criminal charges'. Most people who get these notices stop whatever behavior got them caught (I won't say they necessary go cold turkey....or don't switch providers). Parents who get these notices suddenly get on-the-ball in controlling kids downloading habits.
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Re: Piracy promotes purchasing, especially amongst video editors

Postby Enigma » Sat Jan 23, 2010 11:42 pm

mirkosp wrote:Just last week I was recommended Noein for editing purposes. Checked the first couple eps, liked it, thought it could work well with my idea, ordered the box and will likely come within thurstday or friday at most. I couldn't possibly just buy a 90 euros box without being sure I would even like the series... >_>


Haha Mirk, I was going threw my local BestBuy around a week ago and saw Noein for around 40$, I'll have to check out a few episodes next time to see if it's worth buying :P
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Re: Piracy promotes purchasing, especially amongst video editors

Postby Athena » Sun Jan 24, 2010 6:39 am

saetanigera wrote:The companies don't view AMVs and doujins as competition for their products so they leave them alone....Most anime producers are well aware that fansubs are an American's version of televised broadcasts.


Sources for these two claims? I ask because this does NOT jive with what I read/see/hear in the news in Japanese media. Quite the opposite. The industry gets pissy and makes a big stink almost like clock work every few months. According to my experiences reading English language newspapers, such as The Japan Times, or English translations of Asahi Shimbun and others, it's always the government that sees things the Otaku-way. As I said in another thread, our previous Prime Minister, Taro Aso, came to the helm in large part by appealing to Otaku, and defended the rights of doujinshi artists and MAD creators (he's a Rozen Maiden otaku, desu desu desu desu). Rather, it was the DPJ (Democratic Party of Japan) which kept making noises for tighter enforcement because they were hoping to woo the industry to their side. However, the DPJ came to power, under Hatoyama, largely because of rank and file, every day, ordinary Japanese citizens who were pissed off at the LDP, and its coziness with Zaibatsu (large, family started or currently still run, Japanese firms) in a global recession. Hatoyama and company seem to be going with the status quo to avoid the ire of the public. Helping out corporations against "the little guy" would not be in tune with why the LDP got kicked out and the DPJ got put in.

I experienced this first hand (I can't vote here, of course, but I can contribute and campaign for the candidate/party of my choice). If I could have voted, I am not sure which way I would have gone. The LDP being so pro-Otaku in the ways of copyright was a good reason for me to stick with them, but the DPJ was for easing immigration restrictions, which of course, obviously, is huge issue for me (as an immigrant to Japan).
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Re: Piracy promotes purchasing, especially amongst video editors

Postby mirkosp » Sun Jan 24, 2010 7:40 am

Enigma wrote:
mirkosp wrote:Just last week I was recommended Noein for editing purposes. Checked the first couple eps, liked it, thought it could work well with my idea, ordered the box and will likely come within thurstday or friday at most. I couldn't possibly just buy a 90 euros box without being sure I would even like the series... >_>


Haha Mirk, I was going threw my local BestBuy around a week ago and saw Noein for around 40$, I'll have to check out a few episodes next time to see if it's worth buying :P


90.40 EUR was worth it... and that's 127.726 USD. I would say that 40 USD is an insane deal. But after all, without checking it out yourself, you wouldn't be able to know. :P
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Re: Piracy promotes purchasing, especially amongst video editors

Postby saetanigera » Sun Jan 24, 2010 3:01 pm

Chase Wang on Anime Expo 2007
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/intervi ... -expo-2007

At the con gripe, there was someone complaining that AX was “out to get” the music videos shut down because they're becoming increasingly worried about the legality of the event. It's easy to understand this perspective; music videos are basically copyright violations, but for decades they've been tolerated across the board as a harmless fan event. Is there an attempt by AX to clamp down on the music video programming due to the legal issues with it?

I can tell you for a fact – and those are rumors – but to my understand there's no attempt to “clamp down” on the AMV programming. I can also tell you that the programming director has said to me that one of the reasons she got involved with anime was because of AMVs. I mean, I really can't speak for her, but I do know it isn't her goal to destroy the program. AMVs have been a big part of our programming for many years, just like the masquerade. If anything, we'd like to expand that program.
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Re: Piracy promotes purchasing, especially amongst video editors

Postby AGF-Antoine » Sun Jan 24, 2010 3:03 pm

Yep, you cant evaluate if an anime is worth buying if you can't check it out beforehand.

Alot of anime companies are learning this by streaming eps themselves and thus controlling the online viewing.

So in my opinion the anime industry uses internet in a way more effective way then the music industry.

Especially in The Netherlands its important to download/stream an anime first, since the only anime that is currently airing here is Pokemon, Bakugan Battle Brawlers and Dinosaur King as far as I know. And well, Pokemon and Dinosaur King almost disappeared here due to Jetix becoming Disney XD. Luckily there has been a petition that they accepted and brought them back.


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Re: Piracy promotes purchasing, especially amongst video editors

Postby saetanigera » Sun Jan 24, 2010 3:58 pm

TL;DR: It's obvious fansubbing helped build the industry to pretty much everyone involved, however, we have a large population who feel ENTITLED to free anime. If you watch anime and never buy any NEW anime (not used, not ebay, not downloaded) then you are in fact stating anime is worth $0.00 to anyone who might make more.

Most anime producers are well aware that fansubs are an American's version of televised broadcasts. This statement is true...but by itself is nowhere near the sum of the topic. (and i apologize for not finding the almost direct quote from one of the business executives I based that on)

(My examples are all from one site's various interviews...many because I thought my original source was from there...and partly because I'm not writing a report here)

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/editorial/2003-06-19
"Anime News Network is 'pro-industry.'"
Yes, we are. But that doesn't make us Anti-Fansub. We want to see the North American Anime industry grow; we want to see more people exposed to and enjoying this pastime to which we've devoted so much of our lives. And for the most part, fansubbers want to do the same thing. But Anime needs its clients, and it's the industry that provides those clients. So anytime fansubs hurt industry, it's not a good thing, and it's certainly not necessary. Fansubers can continue to promote Anime in their own way without undercutting the industry.

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/editorial/2005-10-14
In the most recent installment of Answerman, Zac Bertschy outlines his opinion about a particular demographic among those that download fansubs. He states that there is a new breed of fan who believe that anime companies are evil and that anime should be free. Then he goes on to make a few statements about these people and explain, in no uncertain terms, why he doesn't like them.

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/editorial/2003-06-08/2
Despite this, she still appreciates the work that some fansubbers do. Not all fansubbers are like this; many groups still show respect for the ethical guidelines that have always existed. Personally, I'm not sure if there's really any need for the fansubbing of brand new shows at all. But as long as the ethical code is respected, it's a start, and I respect the fansubbers for it. No one can argue with the fact that fansubbers helped build the North American anime market throughout the 90s.

Interview with a fansubber: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/feature/2008-03-11
Winding down, I wanted to get your take on some general trends as a fansubber today. What's your take on the state of anime fandom in 2008?

I would say… more people appear to be watching anime than ever before, more people go to anime conventions than ever before. And I've been around a while, so maybe it's just because of that, but people these days seem a little more spoiled. They're not really in to the fandom… take Otakon. There will be more people, but they're not really hardcore. It's become more mainstream and that's just the way it goes.
We're strong in numbers, but the heart of it is weak. The fact that fewer people are buying DVDs is disheartening; they're hardcore enough to go online and figure out how to download it but not buy a DVD.

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/intervi ... ertainment
Eric P. Sherman, President of Bang Zoom! Entertainment
Speaking of the health of the industry, we have more and more fans, but DVD sales are going down. Some speculate that it has to do with the sum total of Japan's animated output being hosted on unauthorized torrent sites for free, and bootlegs. Given that that seems to be the way things are moving – we have more fans than ever, but fewer actual consumers – how big a concern is that for a studio like yours?

I think it's a huge concern. It's absolutely affected us. I think it's why we've seen a downturn in business – fansubs, bootlegs… and it's not just the fansubs, because even the dubs are available for free online. I see bootleg DVDs being sold around town where I'm actually credited on the pirated box art. It's affecting our clients, and it's affecting us.
Speaking on fansubs, I actually do think it's true that they do help promote the show, to an extent, that it can be a healthy thing, but I think it's gone way beyond that now. Anime downloads are more prevalent than porn on the internet right now. It is a serious problem, and it hurts everyone. If even one third of the people who downloaded Haruhi actually bought the DVD, it would have made our industry so much healthier; you wouldn't even believe it.
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Re: Piracy promotes purchasing, especially amongst video editors

Postby Athena » Sun Jan 24, 2010 5:11 pm

Those links speak (mostly) to the North American market, and don't seem to speak to what the Anime industry (that is, Japanese executives at Japanese studios) tend to think. The respect that the North American LICENSING industry has toward fansubbing and fan creation groups is altogether another thing. I do not equate the Anime industry with those that license and sub/dub the product for overseas. All I ever hear in Japan from the industry is that fansubs are evil, that Japanese people download them to avoid watching TV (with advertisements) or to avoid buying the DVDs. I have never once seen an article with a Japanese exec who has said "You know, fansubs helped line my pocket. I respect that. AMVs promote my product. That's great. Doujinshi get the fans excited, and I love it." ADV? AnimEigo? Funimation? Sure. But they're not anime producers. They're overseas anime redistributors.
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