Take more action in the MEP forums

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Re: Take more action in the MEP forums

Postby Otohiko » Sun Dec 27, 2009 3:39 pm

Vivaldi wrote:The mods get a lot of shit, and I admire them for how much the put up with. But the argument of "people will yell at us so we won't do anything" seems counter-intuitive to the purpose in the first place. Then again, a series of troll topics just got locked, so maybe it's all moot.


Mind you, I'm not saying that nothing should be done either. Just that in many cases it's a bit of a lose-lose situation and taking a hard line on every single rule and situation can only result in more problems than started it in the first place. In some cases, for example, it's true that spam and especially trolling dies out by itself if people (including of course the mods) don't react to it. Then there's also times where dealing with everything and tearing into every post that is potentially against rules is just inefficient.

But that doesn't mean we won't do it when it's really necessary.
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Re: Take more action in the MEP forums

Postby Athena » Sun Dec 27, 2009 4:35 pm

There also has to be a legitimate space for trolling, in-jokes, etc. I have participated in such, I have posted meme images, I'm fond of tossing kyon-kun, denwa around. I have never been banned, I have never been warned. This is because I do it in moderation. As I said earlier, every community needs to allow a certain amount of this, and I think the org team does an excellent job walking the line. Off-topicness and bitching are inherent to the concept of human community. As I said, be too excessive about preventing that, and people just leave.
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Re: Take more action in the MEP forums

Postby BaQuM » Sun Dec 27, 2009 5:44 pm

I am posting here, because I indeed had participated in such mean, disrespectful, elitist activity. I apologize for that. But I got what I deserved, I was banned from the .org for a week, at first it was very hard to deal with but then I tried going on with my life, as if nothing has changed. After a lot of sleepless nights I realized that I could not go on like that. "Trolling" might be fun at first, but is it really worth it? No, I don't think it is.
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Re: Take more action in the MEP forums

Postby Vivaldi » Sun Dec 27, 2009 6:14 pm

Kionon wrote: I have never been banned, I have never been warned. This is because I do it in moderation.

And many people don't. Many people do whatever the hell they want and go unchallenged. You sound like you want a de-facto 4chan with no mods whatsoever. We can't stifle, we need wiggle room, but at the same time people will not moderate themselves.


Why can't people stop talking in extremes, nobody's asking for a totalitarian crackdown, we just want something...anything.


Why can't it just be something like "After the 50th offense and upon viewing the posters general demeanor and offense history"?
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Re: Take more action in the MEP forums

Postby Bauzi » Sun Dec 27, 2009 6:47 pm

I know you do it in your free time without geting payed and I'm aware that it gets annoying... oh and I don't want to be a mod in this forum too, but: It's somehow your job. I understand you if it discourages you, but: It's your duty. If you don't do something because you fear that people will blame you than you do something wrong. Just saying. I don't want to say that you feel or do this way.

and seriously... it gets disturbing when Godix is one of the more polite people here. Man... I sometimes really disliked you because I thought you were such a bad model for other users and their behavior, but today... :|

In some cases, for example, it's true that spam and especially trolling dies out by itself if people (including of course the mods) don't react to it. Then there's also times where dealing with everything and tearing into every post that is potentially against rules is just inefficient.

I'm the opinion (I can't tell how much you do now): Draw a line (I know that it will be more subjective in that case), react on people who overdo it. Show them that they steped over the line. Edit posts, delete posts in hard cases, give out warnings, give temp bans, give perma-bans. Just show that not everything is alright what they do.

As I said, be too excessive about preventing that, and people just leave.

On the other hand: Take no action and new people will leave or hardly stay. I think you can have fun with meme pics and stuff. Look at the General AMV forum. There is a lot of fun (minor) spam and hardly anybody cares and it hardly goes out of hand. That's fun too and no one gets insulted. Just harmless joking around.

We can't stifle, we need wiggle room, but at the same time people will not moderate themselves.

I believe that a lot of people can if they get shown that what they do is not alright and that they often really hurt people and often piss them of big times.

For example: If I would have known that Code was already that much pissed with Project Editor II trashtalk. I would have never ripped his final nerves with continueing the spam in the Project Gateway thread. What was meant as a small silly fun on my side seriously made him explode and made him start phase 1 of the end of Project Editor. and I'm very sorry for it.
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Re: Take more action in the MEP forums

Postby Athena » Sun Dec 27, 2009 7:05 pm

Vivaldi wrote:You sound like you want a de-facto 4chan with no mods whatsoever.


Quite to the contrary, I said that I liked the way the site is moderated as of now. The mods are quite active. I am certainly not suggesting we move to /b/ like levels of insanity, even in Donator's. And anyhow, all other 4chan boards have mods, so your analogy isn't even a good one. If you mean to suggest I am advocating for /b/ like anarchy, that isn't even doable within a phpbb3 forum, and certainly not what I am suggesting at all.
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Re: Take more action in the MEP forums

Postby Vivaldi » Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:50 pm

Kionon wrote:
Vivaldi wrote:You sound like you want a de-facto 4chan with no mods whatsoever.


Quite to the contrary, I said that I liked the way the site is moderated as of now. The mods are quite active. I am certainly not suggesting we move to /b/ like levels of insanity, even in Donator's. And anyhow, all other 4chan boards have mods, so your analogy isn't even a good one. If you mean to suggest I am advocating for /b/ like anarchy, that isn't even doable within a phpbb3 forum, and certainly not what I am suggesting at all.

Your ignoration for the rest of my post aside, my analogy was hyperbole. Though I'd contend that while efficient when they do something, the mods are in no way effective right now. Any serious moderation always has to come through the pipeline via drop-box or pm. What we have now is effectivally community moderation, except nobody takes the concept wholesale, and thus mods are only notified when situations get ridiculously out of hand.


As for your attack on the validity of my analogy, if you've spent any time on 4chan you know that while there are theoretically moderators, in practice they do nothing. Easily under 10 posts moderated per month when thousands of violating posts are made every day: just like here. for every post that gets attention, ten more are given a pass.

Also, I was using 4chan as an analogy for the social problem it presents, not a literal corralation. No moderation means trolls can do whatever they want. You can't reasonably argue or defend against troll posts; the only way continue is to adopt harsher, cynical troll tactics yourself. By their nature trolls set the standard by which the community has to operate in order to get anything done. Look at what happened to Aaron, or soup, or Inan, or vax, or hell, even hast. Posters will adapt to the harshest undercurrent in the community, if it continues unfettered, then it just compounds until you've got an anarchic situation. We're already half-way there.
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Re: Take more action in the MEP forums

Postby AaronAMV » Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:54 pm

Vivaldi wrote:Look at what happened to Aaron, or soup, or Inan, or vax, or hell, even hast.

i saw my name, but i didn't read the post. what happened to me?
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Re: Take more action in the MEP forums

Postby Otohiko » Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:55 pm

AaronAMV wrote:
Vivaldi wrote:Look at what happened to Aaron, or soup, or Inan, or vax, or hell, even hast.

i saw my name, but i didn't read the post. what happened to me?


You just got lumped into the same category as hast :amv:
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Re: Take more action in the MEP forums

Postby AaronAMV » Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:56 pm

Otohiko wrote:
AaronAMV wrote:
Vivaldi wrote:Look at what happened to Aaron, or soup, or Inan, or vax, or hell, even hast.

i saw my name, but i didn't read the post. what happened to me?


You just got lumped into the same category as hast :amv:

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Re: Take more action in the MEP forums

Postby Vivaldi » Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:58 pm

AaronAMV wrote:
Vivaldi wrote:Look at what happened to Aaron, or soup, or Inan, or vax, or hell, even hast.

i saw my name, but i didn't read the post. what happened to me?

You became an asshole, but don't worry, I still love you for it <3
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Re: Take more action in the MEP forums

Postby AaronAMV » Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:59 pm

Vivaldi wrote:
AaronAMV wrote:
Vivaldi wrote:Look at what happened to Aaron, or soup, or Inan, or vax, or hell, even hast.

i saw my name, but i didn't read the post. what happened to me?

You became an asshole, but don't worry, I still love you for it <3

i barely even post anymore considering how much i used to, but <3
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Re: Take more action in the MEP forums

Postby Otohiko » Sun Dec 27, 2009 9:03 pm

As to the point about "halfway to anarchy" - well, I think that applies to the MEP forum specifically. Elsewhere things are easier to handle.

I think part of this is that we need better, more specific rules to apply to what is "good" content for the MEP forum. There aren't really any specific rules for it at the moment - perhaps some should be designed, defining the forum's purpose a bit better, and positively if possible. I'm certainly interested in suggestions on that.
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Re: Take more action in the MEP forums

Postby Phlu » Sun Dec 27, 2009 9:15 pm

But guys,
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Re: Take more action in the MEP forums

Postby godix » Sun Dec 27, 2009 10:26 pm

Otohiko wrote:I think part of this is that we need better, more specific rules to apply to what is "good" content for the MEP forum. There aren't really any specific rules for it at the moment - perhaps some should be designed, defining the forum's purpose a bit better, and positively if possible. I'm certainly interested in suggestions on that.

The problem is different MEP heads tolerate offtopic crap to different degrees. Some are hardasses, some are pansies, some are incredibly relaxed about it all. Hell, half the times the reasons people give for being glad to have taken part in a MEP involve friendships build during it, in other words all the offtopic stuff in the MEP thread. So a universal rule probably wouldn't work all that well.

I'd suggest that if possible, let the person who started a thread moderate posts in it. Only in the MEP forum of course. That would let the project head, who is almost always who starts the topic, set the line for how much offtopic stuff they want to allow and police the topic themselves. If someone abuses this, I'm sure another user would bring it to mods attention and that situation could be dealt with.

If that's not an option, perhaps a brief explanation of the Report button should be made and stickied in the MEP forum and MEP heads could be encouraged to use it. It's the quickest and simplest way to bring posts to mods attention. It's certainly quicker and easier than leaving the topic, navigating to the mod dropbox, and making a new post about the issue. Although, this assumes a certain known issue has been fixed so that invismods are comfortable dealing with reports. Anyway, most users either don't know about that tool or forget it exists, so it'd need to be brought to their attention. Hell, right about now half the people reading this post are probably thinking 'what report button?'
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