HD video additions to the guides - Ripping

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BasharOfTheAges
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HD video additions to the guides - Ripping

Post by BasharOfTheAges » Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:06 am

I know the general workflow for working with BluRays is pretty brain dead simple (and could be worked into zarxfag with a few paragraphs distributed over about 5 or 6 pages), but I've noticed the new standard for ripping, DVDFab(HD), is only trialware for BRDs. Has anyone had any luck with a better piece of software, or are we going to be ("officially") stuck for years with the legally dubious parallel to MPEG2 encoding with TMPEGEnc?
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Re: HD video additions to the guides - Ripping

Post by Zarxrax » Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:45 am

Good question. I haven't personally ripped any BRDs yet, so I hadn't noticed this.

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Re: HD video additions to the guides - Ripping

Post by Qyot27 » Sun Dec 13, 2009 12:32 pm

BasharOfTheAges wrote:I know the general workflow for working with BluRays is pretty brain dead simple (and could be worked into zarxfag with a few paragraphs distributed over about 5 or 6 pages), but I've noticed the new standard for ripping, DVDFab(HD), is only trialware for BRDs. Has anyone had any luck with a better piece of software, or are we going to be ("officially") stuck for years with the legally dubious parallel to MPEG2 encoding with TMPEGEnc?
Honestly, I'd think it's about time to change the recommended MPEG-2 encoder to HCenc. But that's just me.

I've not had to rip any Blu-rays yet (nor do I even have a BD-ROM drive, or any Blu-rays to start with), but I know there is work on open-source libraries to handle it, for example so mplayer supports playback like it does with libdvdcss. Once that comes to fruition it'll be possible.
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Re: HD video additions to the guides - Ripping

Post by BasharOfTheAges » Sun Dec 13, 2009 3:49 pm

Qyot27 wrote:
BasharOfTheAges wrote:I know the general workflow for working with BluRays is pretty brain dead simple (and could be worked into zarxfag with a few paragraphs distributed over about 5 or 6 pages), but I've noticed the new standard for ripping, DVDFab(HD), is only trialware for BRDs. Has anyone had any luck with a better piece of software, or are we going to be ("officially") stuck for years with the legally dubious parallel to MPEG2 encoding with TMPEGEnc?
Honestly, I'd think it's about time to change the recommended MPEG-2 encoder to HCenc. But that's just me.

I've not had to rip any Blu-rays yet (nor do I even have a BD-ROM drive, or any Blu-rays to start with), but I know there is work on open-source libraries to handle it, for example so mplayer supports playback like it does with libdvdcss. Once that comes to fruition it'll be possible.
It's already possible. DVDFabHD does it. Possible isn't Free (or free for that matter).

As for after ripping, I've just been using dss2() to pop it into AVIsynth. It's all the same from there. Only other stuff that needs to go into the guides are resize numbers for 720 and 1080 (the former because a good deal of people's systems can't handle the latter). Maybe a note about how pre-processing takes a bit longer with the increase in frame size (6x larger for full 1080).

The ripping is the only issue - and only really an ethical one at that. Suggesting to so many people that you should use a non-free tool results in alarming rates of piracy of that tool. :amv:
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Re: HD video additions to the guides - Ripping

Post by Zarxrax » Sun Dec 13, 2009 8:27 pm

Qyot27 wrote:Honestly, I'd think it's about time to change the recommended MPEG-2 encoder to HCenc. But that's just me.
Feel free to write the guide for it.
There are a number of reasons that I haven't done so already:
1. A few years back I tried making some mpeg2 encodes for awa using quenc and hcenc, and awa kept telling me that me encodes were screwed up. I never figured out what the heck I was doing wrong, so I decided to just play it safe and stick with tmpegenc.
2. mpeg-2 is mostly useless for amvs except for sending to conventions. And for that, the bitrate is generally high enough that you wont see serious artifacts when its shown at the convention.
3. Hcenc only encodes the video stream, meaning users will have to encode audio seperately, and then mux them with something. This complicates things a fair bit. I also don't know a good muxer that is both easy to use and works well.
4. I keep hoping the conventions will all upgrade to mpeg4, and then this will all be moot.

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Re: HD video additions to the guides - Ripping

Post by Qyot27 » Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:48 pm

BasharOfTheAges wrote:
Qyot27 wrote:Honestly, I'd think it's about time to change the recommended MPEG-2 encoder to HCenc. But that's just me.

I've not had to rip any Blu-rays yet (nor do I even have a BD-ROM drive, or any Blu-rays to start with), but I know there is work on open-source libraries to handle it, for example so mplayer supports playback like it does with libdvdcss. Once that comes to fruition it'll be possible.
It's already possible. DVDFabHD does it. Possible isn't Free (or free for that matter).

As for after ripping, I've just been using dss2() to pop it into AVIsynth. It's all the same from there. Only other stuff that needs to go into the guides are resize numbers for 720 and 1080 (the former because a good deal of people's systems can't handle the latter). Maybe a note about how pre-processing takes a bit longer with the increase in frame size (6x larger for full 1080).

The ripping is the only issue - and only really an ethical one at that. Suggesting to so many people that you should use a non-free tool results in alarming rates of piracy of that tool. :amv:
I was referring to a solution that doesn't contribute to software piracy. I know DVDFabHD can do it.

As for the actual opening it part, I'd go for DGAVCIndex or FFmpegSource2 (although if you don't remux to MKV first, you need Haali's splitter installed so it can handle TS). Apparently there actually are some situations where DSS2 is not frame-accurate.

Zarxrax wrote:Feel free to write the guide for it.
There are a number of reasons that I haven't done so already:
1. A few years back I tried making some mpeg2 encodes for awa using quenc and hcenc, and awa kept telling me that me encodes were screwed up. I never figured out what the heck I was doing wrong, so I decided to just play it safe and stick with tmpegenc.
2. mpeg-2 is mostly useless for amvs except for sending to conventions. And for that, the bitrate is generally high enough that you wont see serious artifacts when its shown at the convention.
3. Hcenc only encodes the video stream, meaning users will have to encode audio seperately, and then mux them with something. This complicates things a fair bit. I also don't know a good muxer that is both easy to use and works well.
4. I keep hoping the conventions will all upgrade to mpeg4, and then this will all be moot.
I actually did get a guide sort-of written up, but it got to the point where trying to lead people through the steps visually and actually present the info in an understandable way to a beginner was grating on my nerves - also for the fact that I decided it would also be best covered with a section describing batch scripting for more advanced users, seeing as that way video encoding, audio encoding, and muxing can be handled all at once and without user input (and for those tasks, the scripts are really not much more complicated than using AviSynth). I packed up the files and archived them, so I could finish it one of these days, but I just haven't yet.

The most I could settle on doing was distribute my pack of profiles to use with HCenc (which could use some degree of updating in the face of the newest betas of v0.24). There is a very rudimentary primer that I posted on Wordpress, though. It was also from March, so the MPEG Default vs. FOX1 thing I mention in regard to how HCenc performs compared to TMPGEnc is outdated and in need of re-evaluation. As are some of the options used there (like INTRAVLC 1, as that parameter is now set on 2 - Auto, and Auto is a more optimal setting than 1 or 0).

1./2. For HCenc, the main focus is DVD compliancy (although ostensibly it could be used for Blu-ray compliant MPEG-2, since it allows up to 1920x1152) - and for that purpose, I've had no issues with it. Both TMPGEnc DVD Author/Authoring Works and dvdauthor accept the streams just fine, and I've not had issues with them on my DVD players either. However, I only started using HCenc as of v0.23, when I switched to it in summer 2008 - I don't know what sorts of compatibility issues may have existed before then.

3. The two muxers I use are mplex1 (which is kind of old, and I guess is also the same as tc_mplex; it was based on bbmpeg) and mplex from the mjpegtools project, which is the only solution I've found that handles custom pulldown (24->29.97 and 25->29.97) properly. Both CLI, although there are some apps that use them in their toolchains, like DVD Flick. For the audio, I know that batch encoding programs often interface with twolame and/or aften (or ffmpeg) to handle it, possibly by way of piping the audio from wavi like I do.
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Re: HD video additions to the guides - Ripping

Post by BasharOfTheAges » Mon Dec 14, 2009 7:31 am

Qyot27 wrote:
BasharOfTheAges wrote:
Qyot27 wrote:Honestly, I'd think it's about time to change the recommended MPEG-2 encoder to HCenc. But that's just me.

I've not had to rip any Blu-rays yet (nor do I even have a BD-ROM drive, or any Blu-rays to start with), but I know there is work on open-source libraries to handle it, for example so mplayer supports playback like it does with libdvdcss. Once that comes to fruition it'll be possible.
It's already possible. DVDFabHD does it. Possible isn't Free (or free for that matter).

As for after ripping, I've just been using dss2() to pop it into AVIsynth. It's all the same from there. Only other stuff that needs to go into the guides are resize numbers for 720 and 1080 (the former because a good deal of people's systems can't handle the latter). Maybe a note about how pre-processing takes a bit longer with the increase in frame size (6x larger for full 1080).

The ripping is the only issue - and only really an ethical one at that. Suggesting to so many people that you should use a non-free tool results in alarming rates of piracy of that tool. :amv:
I was referring to a solution that doesn't contribute to software piracy. I know DVDFabHD can do it.

As for the actual opening it part, I'd go for DGAVCIndex or FFmpegSource2 (although if you don't remux to MKV first, you need Haali's splitter installed so it can handle TS). Apparently there actually are some situations where DSS2 is not frame-accurate.
I started with DGAVCIndex and it decided it didn't like certain BRDs. I re-ripped one of them several times to be sure and it didn't work any of the times. Gave several dozen errors (I stopped hitting Yes/No after about 80 or so)

As to the non-frame accuracy, is that for playback? Because I'm just using it to load, filter, and dump the entire disc as a single file anyways. I'd never recommend editing with the scripts themselves with HDDs so cheap nowadays. It's silly.
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Re: HD video additions to the guides - Ripping

Post by Qyot27 » Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:29 am

BasharOfTheAges wrote:I started with DGAVCIndex and it decided it didn't like certain BRDs. I re-ripped one of them several times to be sure and it didn't work any of the times. Gave several dozen errors (I stopped hitting Yes/No after about 80 or so)

As to the non-frame accuracy, is that for playback? Because I'm just using it to load, filter, and dump the entire disc as a single file anyways. I'd never recommend editing with the scripts themselves with HDDs so cheap nowadays. It's silly.
I do recall that the version of libavcodec it depended on had some caveats, but there seems to be enough buzz around the -NV versions.

It may be for playback, or it may be in general. The underlying point was that it relies on PTS timestamps, and if the PTS is wrong or absent, DSS2 ceases to be frame-accurate. For a quick pass-through it may be okay, but I'm not sure how it would react with filtering that manipulates frames like IVTC or other analysis routines do.
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Re: HD video additions to the guides - Ripping

Post by BasharOfTheAges » Sat Dec 19, 2009 1:07 pm

Qyot27 wrote:
BasharOfTheAges wrote:I started with DGAVCIndex and it decided it didn't like certain BRDs. I re-ripped one of them several times to be sure and it didn't work any of the times. Gave several dozen errors (I stopped hitting Yes/No after about 80 or so)

As to the non-frame accuracy, is that for playback? Because I'm just using it to load, filter, and dump the entire disc as a single file anyways. I'd never recommend editing with the scripts themselves with HDDs so cheap nowadays. It's silly.
I do recall that the version of libavcodec it depended on had some caveats, but there seems to be enough buzz around the -NV versions.

It may be for playback, or it may be in general. The underlying point was that it relies on PTS timestamps, and if the PTS is wrong or absent, DSS2 ceases to be frame-accurate. For a quick pass-through it may be okay, but I'm not sure how it would react with filtering that manipulates frames like IVTC or other analysis routines do.
I can totally support the buzz around the -NV versions... if you have a decent GPU, using it in your workflow will do so much more than any new CPU on the market could dream of doing. It doesn't stop it from just not working with certain discs though (Paprika in my case). I certainly wouldn't recommend using something that has documented cases of just not working in practice (as opposed to ones that wouldn't work in theory - unless there's a list of movies that have come out with borked timestamps somewhere).

How common is the last point, though? I've yet to see a BRD that isn't progressive scan (i.e. there's no reason to IVTC) and I can't say I know enough about various filters that play with ordered frames that aren't all about de-interlacing.
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Re: HD video additions to the guides - Ripping

Post by Qyot27 » Sat Dec 19, 2009 2:56 pm

BasharOfTheAges wrote:How common is the last point, though? I've yet to see a BRD that isn't progressive scan (i.e. there's no reason to IVTC) and I can't say I know enough about various filters that play with ordered frames that aren't all about de-interlacing.
Blu-ray can only store interlaced video at 30fps. Hence, anything that's supposed to be 30fps can only be stored as interlaced. For 720 this is less of a concern because 720p60 is supported, but 1080 is restricted to just 1080p24 or 1080i30 (or 1080i60, if you go with the way the spec says it - still the same thing because they're talking fields, not frames).

Whether you see it in the wild is another matter, but the possibility exists (and what are the chances that the weirdness that occurs with DVD hybridism is rendered impotent on Blu-ray?).
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