Save the environment! ... From what?

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Re: Save the environment! ... From what?

Postby Arigatomina » Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:08 am

Otohiko wrote:You have to be insane to believe that this is the finest that we as a race can do and that this is what will save us from our own glorious march into autoegotechnocratic fuckwhat that surely awaits us sooner rather than later if we keep going at that pace. We're fighting that 95%. We'll soon purge it all successfully. 95% of everything is dead to us already. There should soon be some pure 5% white daffodils on the grave.

No way. Just considering the human 95%, they'll always outnumber us. Every time a small percent tries to wipe out the majority, those bodies unite en masse to put down or overthrow. Often at great losses that mean very little when their number is so huge to begin with. I agree that alienation fear of the other I'm better than the unwashed masses is a form of self delusion engrandizement whatever other terms are used for antisocial people these days. Sure it is. But each person making up that 95% thinks the same way on certain topics. The point is that when enough of the individuals feel threatened, they seek safety in numbers. Even with technology, sheer numbers still make the difference to date. Because that huge mass *is* made up of individuals. If hording together doesn't overthrow the powerful minority, then they act separately - making their collective damage even harder to counter, let alone prevent. Terrorism has shown this quite nicely. Even with the 5% of thinkers/doers/would-be-rulers, they only achieve their means when they get enough like minded people together to outweigh the more active of the 95% - and that flips around when the less active members of the mass start stepping up (in mass, but also individually).

The whole 'a button push to destroy the world' thing is the real delusion. It won't destroy the world. It'll take out a mass here and a mass there, including the 5% responsible for it, and then the majority will replace them, working together until they reach a point where the higher 5% of their individuals stand out enough for them to do it all over again. This is all petty fumigation in the grande scheme of things. If you really wanted to kill all the bees in the world, you do it by making the world uninhabitable for that species. Global warming (or natural climate change) can do that. Dropping bug bombs on the biggest hives won't do anything but take out those hives, making less competition for the rest.

I do believe in global warming. I consider it no different from the changes that happened earlier in the earth's history - many species die, those that can adapt flourish, and the cycle goes on. We probably are contributing to the climate change. I like the theory that dinosaurs flourished on the high oxygen air until they simply grew too large for the environment to sustain them, triggering a natural shift that they couldn't adapt to. A sudden disaster may have wiped them out (lots of theories on that), but they were doomed regardless. Humans may be repeating that by using using (abusing) their environment until eventually the earth just can't sustain that anymore. Then they'll have to adapt or die out. I'm betting we'll adapt. Many nations would die out because they lack the money and technology to survive radical changes even if they come over a long period of time. But the species as a whole is better able to adapt than any (save cockroaches) because we don't depend on the environment to live. We eat artificially grown food, live in artificially created environments and what goes on outside the window only matters in the way it raises the cost of heating and cooling. If we use up the natural resources, we create artificial ones. Bad for the environment, yes, be we don't depend on the natural environment and haven't for a long time now.

Personally, I think the climate change will continue no matter what efforts we make to slow it down. The only difference is whether it hits us or our grandchildren. Humans aren't connected to the environment enough to care either way. We're the ruling species because of that.
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Re: Save the environment! ... From what?

Postby Zarxrax » Tue Dec 01, 2009 4:52 pm

Whether or not global warming is a major threat (it probably is), it's a very convenient tool to be used as a power grab by the global elite.
"In searching for a new enemy to unite us, we came up with the idea that pollution, the threat of global warming, water shortages, famine and the like would fit the bill ... All these dangers are caused by human intervention and it is only through changed attitudes and behaviour that they can be overcome. The real enemy, then, is humanity itself."
- The First Global Revolution, pp.104-105 by Alexander King, founder of the Club of Rome and Bertrand Schneider, secretary of the Club of Rome
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Re: Save the environment! ... From what?

Postby guy07 » Thu Dec 03, 2009 9:36 pm

So to sum up so far:
-Global warming may or may not be a natural occurrence, simply sped up by humans.
-There's more than likely some fear mongering involved.
-Could be the next 'religion' used to scare the populous into submission.
-The research behind global warming is questionable at best. (Did anybody mention that they "accidentally" lost a large portion of the data this whole deal is based on?)
-Godix likes it when Oto gets hurt.

Also, did anybody hear about the hackers that stole emails from scientists exchanging emails on global warming and posted them online? I heard about it on a radio talk show but haven't heard anything further. Links?

Oh, and go watch the 11'th hour. Stephen Hawking says our planet is going to be the next Venus, so it MUST be true! :o
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Re: Save the environment! ... From what?

Postby godix » Fri Dec 04, 2009 2:26 am

guy07 wrote:Also, did anybody hear about the hackers that stole emails from scientists exchanging emails on global warming and posted them online? I heard about it on a radio talk show but haven't heard anything further. Links?

Oh, and go watch the 11'th hour. Stephen Hawking says our planet is going to be the next Venus, so it MUST be true! :o

While I've already pointed out I don't buy into AGW entirely, I will say a lot of the recent news is bullshit. For the most part, those emails don't say what the right wingers claim they say. The 'trick' that often gets talked about is just sloppy phrasing for something that is perfectly acceptable (and too complex for me to explain here). Some of what people complain about are obvious venting, the threats to beat up skeptics was obviously not serious. The celebration of a skeptic dying was in bad taste, but not worse than anything I've said before and not a real concern. The only real issue is that there were several emails which strongly indicated they were hiding data and encouraging data be deleted rather than be released in a FOI request as the law requires.
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Re: Save the environment! ... From what?

Postby downwithpants » Fri Dec 04, 2009 3:04 am

it's not just global warming/climate change i'm concerned about, it's the upcoming mass extinction many biologists are predicting, towards which climate change/global warming will play some part. a change in temperatures and sea levels isn't going to wipe out the human race. but if 75% of all other species go, we are boned. while global climate does shift every ten thousands of years, it doesn't always lead to mass extinction (extinction of significant percentage of all species within like 100,000 yrs). there have been 5 mass extinctions in the 4 billion year old history of life, all due to major environmental changes (atmospheric oxygen levels, formation of pangaea, possibly a bigass meteor). scientists believe that the current changes to the environment we cause (global warming, destruction of sensitive environments) can bring about what has already happened in the past.
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Re: Save the environment! ... From what?

Postby guy07 » Sat Dec 05, 2009 1:42 pm

I'm curious to see if any major politicians call this a hoax or anything at Copenhagen during the upcoming ClimaGate meeting, or whatever it's called.
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Re: Save the environment! ... From what?

Postby Arigatomina » Sat Dec 05, 2009 3:08 pm

Maybe it's safe to ask here. What did I miss?

After the years of Bush reassuring everyone that Global Warming didn't exist despite all the supposedly "intelligent/advanced" nations agreeing that it did, suddenly average Americans are aware of it. They don't even question it. Last year it didn't exist or (to college students and my family, who were forced to hear about it from me) it was a scam that only other countries believed in. Now, just yesterday, some old woman in the Dollar Store was telling me how the reason snow keeps coming later and later each year here is due to the climate shift, which Global Warming is playing a role in.

I admit I don't watch news anymore and I'm not current with my Times since my mom keeps stealing them and keeping them for months. I'm not surprised to see a discussion here since there are a lot of college-educated people in this forum. But for a random oldtimer to pop that word out like it was common place? Last year I was afraid to mention it to anyone in public because they always required long explanations (never heard of it) or debates (Bush says it doesn't exist). Should I look down on the average American for going from believing it doesn't exist to accepting it as a matter of course that quickly? It does argue hard in favor of "average people" being sheep who believe anything they're told by a fellow American with money and/or a high role in politics. :?

[Maybe a little off-topic, but not really. I think...]
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Re: Save the environment! ... From what?

Postby Knowname » Sat Dec 05, 2009 4:19 pm

I learned about it on Tiny Toons (Toxic Crusaders, Captain Planet some shit...) :x that's how long it's been around. Bush can shove it for all I care, Buster Bunny surfing a 5000-ft. wave FTW!!!
If you do not think so... you will DIE
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Re: Save the environment! ... From what?

Postby kenisama » Sat Dec 05, 2009 6:50 pm

Arigatomina wrote:It does argue hard in favor of "average people" being sheep who believe anything they're told by a fellow American with money and/or a high role in politics. :?


I had to laugh at this, because I give my wife advice all the time and she'll brush it off... but the moment someone with "Doctor" in front of their name say the exact same thing, it's like gold to her :roll: lol
George Orwell wrote:People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.
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Re: Save the environment! ... From what?

Postby godix » Sat Dec 05, 2009 9:38 pm

Arigatomina wrote:After the years of Bush reassuring everyone that Global Warming didn't exist despite all the supposedly "intelligent/advanced" nations agreeing that it did, suddenly average Americans are aware of it. They don't even question it.

Actually it's the reverse of what you say. IIRC right now almost exactly 50% of Americans believe greenhouse gasses are causing climate change. It was about 70% believed it just last year. So if anything, less people are convinced now than they used to. Which doesn't really say much about it one way or another since 'take a public opinion poll' is not a step in the scientific process.

What's happening is that climate change hit politics. Once Congress seriously took a crack at passing laws about it (and failing spectacularly), serious opposition to it all kicked in. It probably doesn't help that climatologist have been absolute morons recently. The leaked emails aren't as bad as claimed, but their reaction to it is a real publicity problem. When scientists defend keeping data secret and even deleting data in response to Freedom of Information requests, people start wondering what's going on. Especially when a week later they announce that, surprise surprise, a large chunk of the data AGW theories are based on was accidentally deleted.


Note: I'm not saying the accidental data loss was intentional deleting things so they couldn't release it under FOI requests. Those two actually have nothing to do with each other if you look at the facts. However, the timing of one week defending scientists who advocated deleting data then the next week announcing large amounts of data was lost does not look good.
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Re: Save the environment! ... From what?

Postby Arigatomina » Sun Dec 06, 2009 3:27 am

godix wrote:Once Congress seriously took a crack at passing laws about it (and failing spectacularly), serious opposition to it all kicked in. It probably doesn't help that climatologist have been absolute morons recently. The leaked emails aren't as bad as claimed, but their reaction to it is a real publicity problem. When scientists defend keeping data secret and even deleting data in response to Freedom of Information requests, people start wondering what's going on. Especially when a week later they announce that, surprise surprise, a large chunk of the data AGW theories are based on was accidentally deleted.

That's funny. I remember reading original scientific reports (years ago) pointing at GW and then the "rewritten for the Administration" versions that pointed toward the exact opposite. It was supposed to show why the US is failing at science on all levels compared to other countries. At the time I rolled my eyes, because it reminded me of people taking what suits their needs from the BigBook and discarding or reinterpreting the rest. That's what the Bushes did with everything science their entire time in office. If Congress is actually trying, then you'd think the scientific community would at least give them a chance to prove they aren't going to twist their words around anymore.

Carbon caps and the like are never going to pass in the US. I did read my magazines last year and the year before that and I remember how much money was put into saving the big car manufacturers who are the same ones who'd be hit hardest by eco-friendly laws. I got my republican newsletter a few months back and everything in there was talking about how the evil democrats were trying to take away our gas guzzlers and our right to the coal we all love and need. I laughed my head off. They were asking for money to support everything I'm against. They did mention the environment, and the Global Warming scam the democrats are using to take away our rights as Americans. I assumed it was just fear mongering and misinformation, the same thing each party does with every topic they disagree on. It did make me wish I could change parties without my mother bringing up the whole "your brother cancels out my vote, so you have to vote in my place" thing. I'm so not a republican. ;p

On a related note, scientists are generally bad at explaining anything to the masses. They can't even fight the "humans lived with dinosaurs and the earth is flat" theories without turning red in the face. It's not an issue up for debate, so they can't see the point in debating. Their opponents aren't going to be convinced by anything because they don't want to be. Engaging them at all just makes the masses think the issue *is* up for debate.

I don't think Global Warming is up for debate. You cut down forests, there's less plants eating up the carbon. More humans and artificial carbon producers (machines) + fewer forests = more carbon that isn't being recycled by nature. The growing excess has to be going somewhere and you know it is having an effect. We're not slowing down the clearcutting, planted trees don't grow fast enough to replace the lost ones, and we're not driving fewer cars because hello China, welcome to the age of mass polution.

Caps could make a dent if everyone accepted them - out of fear, out of pressure from parents who don't want to be scared of their grandchildren's future, out of greed (trade your unused points for money from those who want to polute more instead of less, great way to reduce emissions!), out of whatever motivation it takes to get people acting. But you're just slowing it down. There'll still be the increasing lack of green and the mass reproducing human+machine emissions.

[Now I'm wondering if that little old lady ringing things up at the Dollar Store was a Democrat. ;p ]
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Re: Save the environment! ... From what?

Postby guy07 » Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:46 pm

Wow both sides of this story are being covered equally. (In canadain media, anyways. Not sure about the rest of the world.) Yay for freedom of speech. |:>
I got to see Bill Nye the science guy take on some old dude who kept getting angry. Bill seemed a lot smarter when he was talking about dinosaur bones ... it was a draw though. And I'm guessing no big changes will come out of "hopenhagen" and if they do, same thing will happen as did with kyoto. As long as they don't implement the carbon tax thing globally, I don't really care. Even if global warming isn't man made, we shouldn't use more than we have to. So long as they don't tell me i have to live in a cave and eat leaves, I probably won't have any complaints.
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Re: Save the environment! ... From what?

Postby Knowname » Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:11 pm

I drew the line when they took away my hairspray!!
If you do not think so... you will DIE
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Re: Save the environment! ... From what?

Postby 8bit_samurai » Thu Dec 10, 2009 1:18 am

But the polar bears are dying! And without polar bears, how will I continue to make fancy coats and furniture accessories? And how will I void my warranties if there are no seals to club? And how will I seduce blondes in red capes with wolf pelt if I can't hunt wolves from planes? Oh wait, I think the last two may be a different issue...

On a serious not, my father spoke about climate change and how it's affecting Alaska at one of the AFNs a few years back. Didn't really pay attention much, but one of the things I do remember is that permafrost near coastlines and some other places are melting, which erodes the land pretty bad. In fact, there are a few villages that will have to relocate. There was also something about the ice receding faster and taking longer to freeze, which makes it harder for polar bears to find food. It also had some affect on other animals, but I don't really remember. Though the last part I may have heard from somewhere else, I don't really recall.

One of the things I am sure of, is how the weather has been acting weird recently. This year it snowed a couple weeks earlier than usual, and it actually stayed on the ground rather turning to slush. Also, over the weekend we had a pretty bad storm and the next day it rained and has been quite warmer than usual since. It's not the first it rained in December, actually, as a few years ago it not only rained in December, but that same year it snowed in July.
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Re: Save the environment! ... From what?

Postby guy07 » Sun Jan 03, 2010 1:40 pm

Well, thank god none of the agreements reached were legally binding. I just pray the US doesn't implement a carbon tax ... cuz our Prime Minister said he would pretty much do whatever the US does.

Also, can anyone explain why the Clima-Gate people decided to make Canada look like we're not doing anything? We're the second largest nation in the world and we only give off 2% of the worlds carbon. Given how much of our country is rural and how much vegetation we have (well, in the summer ..), I'd say we probably neutralize our carbon footprint. Canada gets no love. :cry:
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