Patriotism! ... and health care ...?

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Re: Patriotism! ... and health care ...?

Postby Athena » Sat Sep 12, 2009 8:46 pm

kenisama wrote:I say, if you want free health care... join the military... you want it free for life... retire from the military.


Tricare is a joke. Even Tricare Prime is absolutely ridiculous. ...says he currently sitting around in Navy PT gear.

Otherwise, we live in the land of opportunity, there's nothing stopping you from working hard in life and achieving what you want and being able to afford health care. If your job sucks and you can't afford it... sorry for you, you shouldn't have been cutting up in class and just expecting to get a free ride.


Believe me, you and I are on the same page as far as what America ideally stands for, but unfortunately, this just isn't the reality. Those that start ahead tend to stay ahead, and those that start behind tend to stay behind, all things being equal. It is as true in socioeconomic theory as it is in newtonian physics.

And if you DID work hard and payed attention in school and still don't have health care, sorry for you to, shouldn't have bought that expensive sports car and the fancy big screen TV to obtain the social status you desire.


I am hardly talking about my moral or ethical obligation to take care of those who have the ability to take care of themselves and utterly fail to be responsible. I am rather talking about my moral and ethical obligations to assist those that start behind, work hard, and still have trouble making ends meet. Those people deserve a helping hand, and more often than not, they don't get one.

People need to prioritize their needs over their wants and stop expecting someone to bail them out after they mess up. Take ownership over your own lives.


I fundamentally agree with this, however, it is not the issue at hand. The issue at hand is middle-class and lower income families that work their asses off, some of them veterans, some of them even current service members (I should tell you my lovely experiences with Tricare sometime, they are not pleasant). We need reform, and I think that reform should include a public option. Godix and I took this conversation over to IRC and here is what we agreed to:

<Kionon> But cancer? I don't know. If I moved here from El Salvador, got my citizenship by working hard, but still only make $20,000 because I could only do so much education, and I don't smoke, I don't drink, I try to be healthy, but awww fuck, I got cancer...
<Kionon> I don't know. I think that should be covered.
<godix> Hmm. Perhaps three tiers? Basic health care for all. Strongly regulated insurance (private or public, doesn't matter as long as it's strongly regulated) for direct life affecting illness like cancer. Then totally free market insurance for elective procedures.
<Kionon> I would agree with that.
<Kionon> I would prefer that basic level be public.
<godix> And yet, AFAIK< not a single politician is discussing anything remotely like that.
<Kionon> That's because you and I understand the art of the realistic.
<godix> Yeah, I agree. Basic health care isn't a right, as we already discussed, but it is something that society is morally responsable for providing and a civilized nation would provide it. THe problem is the extremes, and that's where I think capitalistic insurance options are the best solution.
<Kionon> Unfortunately, you and I are not congress.
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Re: Patriotism! ... and health care ...?

Postby kenisama » Sat Sep 12, 2009 9:50 pm

Kionon wrote:Tricare is a joke. Even Tricare Prime is absolutely ridiculous. ...says he currently sitting around in Navy PT gear.


Never said Tricare is anywhere near perfect, trust me, been in the Army for the better part of 10 years, I know exactly how much of a pain it can be. But I have a feeling that's the type of health care you'll get with a "government/public/whatever their gonna call it" option.
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Re: Patriotism! ... and health care ...?

Postby EvaFan » Sun Sep 13, 2009 1:52 am

godix wrote:Economics isn't your strong suit is it?

Might be true.

godix wrote:Just because something is for profit does not mean it is also bad for the end user. In theory, for profit is better since it encourages competition to provide the same services at lower prices. In fact, I've heard people argue that a lot of the US health care problem might be viewed as the competition and costs are hidden from the end user. Most people get health care through their work. That means competition is limited since people can only pick whatever their job provides and the costs are somewhat hidden for the end user since work generally picks up at least some of the tab. If the US system were more capitalistic and the end user had control over the choices and costs then that'd encourage competition which would eliminate some of those inefficiencies in the system that Obama says costs oh so much. I don't completely buy into that argument, but it is at least something worth thinking about.


Have you even looked at the perspective from my angle or "argument" i stated earlier from my opinion? Ultimately the goal of it was to cut costs at the source instead of relying on something so far from being dependable as competition. There are alot of benefits to it that you may have not noticed, "economically".

The government would be creating Permanent jobs regularly as more towns are created and will need local hospitals, not fucking temporary ones like they did with the stimulus bill-shit.
The hospitals would not profit, thus costs for everything are pretty much regulated by the government to only sustain the hospital, jobs, and equipment, maybe even research. None of the money would be used to make any single person richer at our expense.
Obviously competition would tighten even more with federal ran buildings which makes me wonder what the point of this post was. It's not like I never considered competition from the beginning. I was just thinking in terms of a stronger outcome or goal.

There are others but i'm not writing an essay here or continuing an argument about healthcare in a place where it obviously matters the least. Was more or less responding to your personal attack.
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Re: Patriotism! ... and health care ...?

Postby Athena » Sun Sep 13, 2009 2:04 am

Eva-Fan wrote:There are others but i'm not writing an essay here or continuing an argument about healthcare in a place where it obviously matters the least. Was more or less responding to your personal attack.


Was more or less responding to your personal attack.


responding to your personal attack.


personal attack


:roll: Someone doesn't know godix well at all.
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Re: Patriotism! ... and health care ...?

Postby EvaFan » Sun Sep 13, 2009 6:50 am

Kionon wrote:Someone doesn't know godix well at all.

Is this really a bad thing? |:>
"The people cannot be [...] always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented, in proportion to [...] the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions, it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to public liberty. What country can preserve its liberties, if it's rulers are not warned [...] that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants."-Thomas Jefferson
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Re: Patriotism! ... and health care ...?

Postby downwithpants » Sun Sep 13, 2009 1:01 pm

eva-fan, the thing about human behavior is that it is naturally motivated by profit. it is the way our brains are wired. people make decisions by looking at each option and asking, "how much am i gaining, how much do i need to invest/lose, what's the best?" if health care systems are given a steady stream of income and all they need to do is meet government standards, employees will do as little as possible just to get the job done. they would not need to control their costs as long as it is covered under the public funding. this would severely degrade the quality of health care. even though the system isn't operating for profit, the people are. this is a bit cynical, as there are many healthcare workers who are motivated by the wellbeing of their patients. however, it's important to further incentivize the goal of patient wellness.

kenisama, there are people who can easily afford health insurance, but are denied by insurers because of previous medical conditions.
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Re: Patriotism! ... and health care ...?

Postby godix » Sun Sep 13, 2009 1:39 pm

Eva-Fan wrote:The government would be creating Permanent jobs regularly as more towns are created and will need local hospitals, not fucking temporary ones like they did with the stimulus bill-shit.

There are plenty of jobs in the health care industry already. There's a chronic shortage of nurses for example, even now in middle of the recession. For whatever reason Americans have chosen not to work in that field, at least not enough to actually meet it's needs. The government doesn't need to make jobs in the health care industry.

Have you even looked at the perspective from my angle or "argument" i stated earlier from my opinion? Ultimately the goal of it was to cut costs at the source instead of relying on something so far from being dependable as competition. There are alot of benefits to it that you may have not noticed, "economically"

Not to go off on an essay, but there are four broad categories of people spending money. First is they spend their own money for themselves, in that case they value both cost and desire. If you want a PS3 you'll shop around to get a good deal but you won't settle for a used PS1 just because it's cheaper. The second is they spend their own money for other people. In that case, they value cost buy not desire. If your dad doesn't like the tie you give him for fathers day then no big deal, but you wanna make sure that it's cheap. The third is to spend other peoples money on yourself. You get what you desire and who gives a damn about the costs? Come on up to my mansion and we'll have food fights with caviar and give away Rolls Royces, after all *I* don't gotta pay for it. Then the final category is spending other peoples money on other people. In which case people don't value cost or desire. If someone gets poor treatment from a hospital then it's sad, but it doesn't really affect me so oh well. If someone gets an unneeded operation that costs millions of dollars then sure that's a waste, but it isn't my money so who cares? Almost all government spending is in that final category. In theory, moving health care to the first category instead of the final one would help control costs and do better at providing what people want/need.

Was more or less responding to your personal attack.

No no, I wasn't personally attacking you this time. If I were, it would contain a lot more curse words and deviant sex references. A personal attack is 'You're an ass munching uncle fucker who would jack off over pics of two year olds sucking cock if only you could find your fucking dick among the pubic hair.' OTOH saying 'You don't understand economics well' is an honest opinion, and perhaps a statement of fact.
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Re: Patriotism! ... and health care ...?

Postby kenisama » Sun Sep 13, 2009 4:41 pm

downwithpants wrote:kenisama, there are people who can easily afford health insurance, but are denied by insurers because of previous medical conditions.


Don't mean to sound antipathetic but unfortunately these people do not make up the majority. Which is really in question here, what's best for everyone, not just a few. Don't get me wrong, I do feel there are things that could and should change for the better, but a government option to overhaul the entire system? Sounds like you want to break something that's already broken.

Oh and guy07... thnx a bunch, I didn't want to get started up on this thread, but you created a monster :amv:
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Re: Patriotism! ... and health care ...?

Postby guy07 » Sun Sep 13, 2009 7:49 pm

downwithpants wrote:eva-fan, the thing about human behavior is that it is naturally motivated by profit. it is the way our brains are wired. people make decisions by looking at each option and asking, "how much am i gaining, how much do i need to invest/lose, what's the best?"

I always do what makes me/other people happy. There goes that theory. But I'm weird like that, I'm never really motivated by profit or gain. :mrgreen:

And I have not created a monster. I have created a form of entertainment for myself by dropping some meat between a few lions. Well, also it's always good for people to see/try to understand other peoples views and opinions. We never really learn a lot in these threads, but hell, this is more interesting than playing the caption the avatar game when people don't change their fucking avatars ... :sweat:
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Re: Patriotism! ... and health care ...?

Postby kenisama » Sun Sep 13, 2009 8:03 pm

guy07 wrote:We never really learn a lot in these threads, but hell, this is more interesting than playing the caption the avatar game when people don't change their fucking avatars ... :sweat:


lol, gotcha and duly noted me = guilty :sweat:
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Re: Patriotism! ... and health care ...?

Postby CodeZTM » Sun Sep 13, 2009 10:51 pm

Ok. Did nobody pay attention to the /thread comment I made a few pages back? :|

I knewwwww this was coming.

Good going guy. :up:

Also, while not wanting to sound like a selfish bastard, I hope uni health care goes through [in some form at least] because I will be without my parental insurance in 2 years, and my arthritis medication costs nearly 1000 bucks without it. Did I also mention having a pre-existing condition like I do pretty much guarantees I'm up the river without a paddle getting any sort of insurance without sky high charges if any at all. So even though I have worked hard and will get a job with good pay my entire life, I'll still be screwed by the insurance companies. Please ignore this tiny message, as I have no will to argue this.

|:>
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Re: Patriotism! ... and health care ...?

Postby Garylisk » Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:57 am

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This thread wins for the shitstorm. I applaud OP for dropping this bomb and then going to bed. Fucking brilliant. :book:
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Re: Patriotism! ... and health care ...?

Postby downwithpants » Mon Sep 14, 2009 11:42 pm

guy07 wrote: I always do what makes me/other people happy. There goes that theory. But I'm weird like that, I'm never really motivated by profit or gain.

you do act for profit. happiness is what you're trying to gain. that's pretty much how all people are.
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Re: Patriotism! ... and health care ...?

Postby guy07 » Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:50 am

downwithpants wrote:
guy07 wrote: I always do what makes me/other people happy. There goes that theory. But I'm weird like that, I'm never really motivated by profit or gain.

you do act for profit. happiness is what you're trying to gain. that's pretty much how all people are.

Im pretty sure he meant profit in the financial sense .... but i could be mistaken. I guess you could interpret happiness to be a form of profit.
Also, where's oto? He wanted to talk about the canadian health care system i thought ..
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Re: Patriotism! ... and health care ...?

Postby Otohiko » Tue Sep 15, 2009 10:47 am

guy07 wrote:Also, where's oto? He wanted to talk about the canadian health care system i thought ..


Me? :P

I think I said a whole bunch of things about it before. I think comparisons between the US and the Canadian system always end up in the US public health debate, with the pro- and anti- sides always saying that either Canada is better or worse than the US currently. The fact is that Canada is really neither worse nor better than the US at the moment - it's just different. What this REALLY means is that the Canadian system is seriously flawed, much like the US', just in different ways. Generally, Canada has much better primary care (although it's far from problem-free - tell that to my parents who can't get a family doctor, even though it's supposedly a 'right' in the Canadian system) and for certain basic types of urgent care we're much better as well. I really can't complain about my emergency care when I broke my elbow - in the US that surgery would've run me thousands of dollars, if I could afford it at all. But I was lucky, I wound up in a good hospital and was treated well, immediately and for free. On the other hand resources in Canadian hospitals are far from equal everywhere - I was told that I was lucky to be at the hospital where I was, since if I'd gone to one closer to home I would've had to wait months for the surgery. The wait times in Canada for many critical procedures are atrocious. Especially in cancer diagnosis and treatment, these delays are near-criminal. Not everything is free in the system, either, and many critical procedures also actually cost a lot of money. In short, Canada's system, by and large, works - but rather inefficiently. It is not worth what we are paying for it as taxpayers, but we don't have choice as it stands under the current political situation. By the way, not only politics are to blame for it. I don't know if I can wholeheartedly go after doctors in general and there are many fine examples of them - but the profession is overpaid and far from made up of uniformly effective caregivers. The near-bottomless public-fund "feeder" attracts a lot of parasites to the system and frankly the healthcare profession in Canada is not far from a mafia-type structure. In Canada everyone goes after politicians as the source of the problem, but the fact is that the profession is itself deeply flawed and at least partially corrupt (and likewise partially incompetent). I'm actually sometimes skeptical when they say that our healthcare is underfunded - it's not underfunded. It's just that the fuckers in white suits (and their retinue of bureaucrats) are pretty much overpaid, if we go by the overall system performance as an indication, and we don't want to talk about that because they're the ones cutting us up when we get in trouble...

I am however all for socialized healthcare, but Canada is really not the greatest example of it. Many places in Europe have the formula down much, much better. The US debate keeps referring to Canada's flawed system as a point of reference, when in fact healthcare systems like those in, I don't know, France or Israel, put both the US and Canada deep, deep in shame. Statistics reflect this.
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