VirtualDubMod, BeSweet and Bitrate Questions

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Postby Scintilla » Fri Sep 07, 2007 7:09 pm

Kero777 wrote:
Keeper of Hellfire wrote:
trythil wrote:Builds of the default distribution of LAME introduce an encoder delay of 576 samples, end of story.
Wait a minute? Does that really mean, after compressing my video, the audio gets delayed for 576 samples? :shock:
That would explain my impression, that the compressed video has a different synching than the uncompressed.

Yes, isn't it amazing how much 30-50ms can do to your syncing after compressing? I might need to stick to PCM audio after all...

Where did you get 30-50ms? 576 samples is only 13ms assuming a standard CD-audio sample rate of 44100 Hz.

And what happens when you create the MP3 with BeSweet and mux it in with VDub(/Mod) without recompressing?
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Postby Scintilla » Fri Sep 07, 2007 7:13 pm

Sorry for the double post, but I just thought of something else...

Does your "Interleave options" screen look something like this?

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Especially the last two options being checked.
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Postby Kero777 » Fri Sep 07, 2007 7:45 pm

Thanks for your reply! :D

anubisx00 wrote:I just went and checked over 30 AVI files with MP3 audio and VdubMod always reported the MP3 audio length being ever so slightly shorter or longer.


I did the same thing. My friend that has also used Lame told me that they realized a slight difference in sync between lossless and compressed. When checking their files in Streams>Report, their audio is at least 30ms shorter than the video. Like I mentioned before, I've seen some up to 500ms difference (half a second!)

anubisx00 wrote:My guess is that it is a bug in reporting or it is simply normal behavior. Is your video actually out of sync?


Yes, it is out of sync. Unfortunately, I do not think it is a bug because when I loaded my my "test" uncompressed version back into Vegas (or just used the original project file) and then imported my compressed DivX/XviD, I compared the streams and there is a difference. I know now why the compressed will show up longer (how lame adds the extra silence before and at the end), but why does V-DubMod report the audio to be shorter than the video when it should be longer? I even tested the "cut off audio stream when video stream ends function" and nothing. It looks like my video is playing slightly faster than the uncompressed one and then sometimes slower. Loading them both up in Vegas, the compressed video stream does show the silence at the beginning where the silence in generated from Lame, but then for some reason the Lame audio gets ahead for the rest of the video and the last second little bit gets cut off and the audio stream is a straight line (Gets cut off. I tested the middle of my AMV that doesn't end slowly). But, there is definitely difference in the music streams because the two audio streams, one compressed and the original exported from Vegas, do not match up. :(
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Postby post-it » Fri Sep 07, 2007 8:42 pm

Kero777 wrote:
post-it wrote:.. let us ignore the current problems and try something a little wierd ( from a newbe's point of view, I'll explain later if this works ... )

.. try exporting your AMV from Vegas by Doubling the Frame Rate of the Video.
( i.e. if it was 24 frames per second, change it to 48 frames per second. )
.. leave the Audio in WAV form PCM.

.. When you play that back through Media Player is it "in-sync" ???

?


.. there was 50.00 fps (PAL) and 59.940 (Double NTSC) which were the closest. I tried both of those options and as far as I can tell, yes, it is exactly in sync. :D
anubisx00 Scintilla and trythil can help me on this one ( just in case I get distracted again. )
.. Save whichever Doubled Video Speed Encode and have Virtual Dub drop the Frame Rate of your AMV to 24 frames per second..

.. now, is the Virtual Dub encode in-sync with the Audio ??
1) if yes .. then Vegas is stretching a frame or two and throwing your timing-off when Exporting at 24 frame per second.
2) if no .. then the Audio actually "is not" aligned to the Video.

.. this test is designed to verify if a possibly problem might be "in" one of your effects/affects/transitions and Vegas is covering it up! ... but if the sync "is off" then Virtual Dub can go frame-by-frame and narrow-down where the error might be.
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Postby Kero777 » Fri Sep 07, 2007 9:56 pm

Scintilla wrote:Where did you get 30-50ms? 576 samples is only 13ms assuming a standard CD-audio sample rate of 44100 Hz.


Because that's what the report on VirtualDubMod shows. For example, using one of the test avi's I created from a short segment in my AMV, my video stream could be 00:00:14:598, but the audio shows up as 00:00:14:558. A 40ms difference. The weird thing is, the number seems to vary with each different video I try. It will stay the same difference if it's the same video whereas another might be a 50ms difference each attempt to get it to match with the video and another only 32ms. :?

And what happens when you create the MP3 with BeSweet and mux it in with VDub(/Mod) without recompressing?

I still get a mismatch. I'm not sure if they are the same exact numbers, but I am going to check right now with a short segment of my AMV. Okay, my results:

Original file exported from Vegas with PCM audio: 00:00:14:598
Compressed audio with VirtualDubMod: 00:00:14:558 Muxed in: Same
Compressed audio with BeSweet 00:00:14:655 :shock: Wait...

[insert and insane amount of dots here while she goes to experiment with many things]

Muxed in with BeSweet: 00:14:598! I tested this out in Vegas again and there still is a difference even when I convert the new mp3 file back to wav so Vegas won't have any errors (although when I do that, the length is different again!). It's Echoing some. The sounds vibrations are still seen apart. And the one with compressed video and audio has a different length than the uncompressed when shown in Vegas, but this is sort of little. I probably took a look at the MP3 from BeSweet earlier on today and got too frustrated because of the bigger difference in length and didn't try it, but honestly I can't remember if I did it or not!

Scintilla wrote:Sorry for the double post, but I just thought of something else...

Does your "Interleave options" screen look something like this?

Image

Especially the last two options being checked.


Yes, and it looks just like that. Thank you to the extreme, Scintilla! :D You've helped me so much on these forums. It seems that after using BeSweet to convert the audio, VirtualDubMod seems to detect the differences in the audio and fix the length, but not when you use VirtualDubMod itself? Strange... I think it's really is a lot better than what it was, but I'm still going to do a couple of more tests. The video looks more in sync, but still very, very slightly off. I cannot tell right now though because my eyes have been glued to the computer all day. :sweat: If I can I will try to make an MP3 or Wav of the two audios on top of each other and then upload it and post it here.

Post-it, I will try your idea as well. Thanks sooo much! That is very clever. I never would have thought of that. Thanks to the rest of you for replying. If I don't reply again tonight then I will tomorrow. I am dead tired again.
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Postby Kero777 » Sat Sep 08, 2007 12:25 pm

I came across something kind of weird today. I decided to put my uncompressed version into VirtualDubMod and look for a scene change. There was a very good, obvious one at frame 30. I took the compressed version of the video, with uncompressed PCM audio and put it into V-Dub and there was a 1 frame difference... the scene change started at 31st frame. I thought "How does that happen? During the encode to XviD/DivX?" I tested this out by taking the uncompressed video and only compressing the audio. I tried both ways: using VirtualDubMod and then BeSweet. The scene change was at 30 frames. Hmmm...

It seems as though the new version with the BeSweet audio is only 1 frame off from the original (Frame 900 will be 901, Frame 607 will be 608, etc). I'm pretty sure it was more before. I don't know how I notice the difference in timing with just a 1 frame difference (I must have really good vision or it's how I preview everything 800 times before I decide it's right. :P). Does this happen to anyone else?

Thanks, everyone. :D I love these forums.
Thanks to: Qyot27, Jaddziadax, BasharOfTheAges, Scintilla, Post-It, Anubisx00, Kariudo and everyone else for helping this Newby out! :P

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Postby Qyot27 » Sat Sep 08, 2007 4:39 pm

Something that occurred to me: did you use XviD to encode the video, and if you did, did you use B-frames (B-VOPs as I believe it says in the configuration) and not choose the Packed Bitstream option? I doubt this would do anything, but XviD's way of dealing with B-frames is to insert a decoder lag at the very beginning of the video. Packed Bitstream is the way DivX does it - it involves a different method. I'm wondering if using Packed Bitstream wouldn't correct this problem?
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Postby Qyot27 » Sat Sep 08, 2007 4:42 pm

Qyot27 wrote:Something that occurred to me: did you use XviD to encode the video, and if you did, did you use B-frames (B-VOPs as I believe it says in the configuration) and not choose the Packed Bitstream option? I doubt this would do anything, but XviD's way of dealing with B-frames is to insert a decoder lag at the very beginning of the video. Packed Bitstream is the way DivX does it - it involves a different method. I'm wondering if using Packed Bitstream wouldn't correct this problem?

Even though it's obvious, this only is the case for using AVI as the container, as that's the only reason the hacks exist in the first place. The other way of testing it would be to mux the video into MP4 (making sure to remove N-VOPs when doing so) or MKV (making sure the --native-mpeg4 option is set for mkvmerge), and see if the sync is still off.
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Postby Kero777 » Sun Sep 09, 2007 1:16 pm

Qyot27 wrote:Something that occurred to me: did you use XviD to encode the video, and if you did, did you use B-frames (B-VOPs as I believe it says in the configuration) and not choose the Packed Bitstream option? I doubt this would do anything, but XviD's way of dealing with B-frames is to insert a decoder lag at the very beginning of the video. Packed Bitstream is the way DivX does it - it involves a different method. I'm wondering if using Packed Bitstream wouldn't correct this problem?


Qyot27, you figured it out! Thanks so much! I preview my video and it looks exactly like the original. When checking frames in VirtualDubMod, it seems to be dead on now!

I was following the guides here: http://www.animemusicvideos.org/guides/avtech/xvid.html. I could have misread something and didn't select that option. Re-reading it now I see that it says these two separate things about BVOPs (underlining my concerns):

Guide wrote:Max consecutive BVOPs specifies the maximum amount of these B-Frames that can appear in a row. DivX 5 only encodes 1 B-Frame in a row. XviD's default is 2 which is the highest you should go (as each extra B-Frame increases the processing power needed to decode). However, there is a compatibility concern. DivX5 can decode 2 B-Frames in a row but not when Packed bitstream is selected. This guide recommends keeping 2 B-Frames and deselecting Packed bitstream but if you want to keep things really compatible with DivX 5 and some hardware players then you may want to reduce the max BVOPs to 1.


And

Guide wrote:Packed bitstream is a function established by DivX 5.1 which in theory allows better decoding and reduces bad audio sync. This is true until you start using more than 1 B-Frame. If you use 2 B-Frames this should be deselected in order to ensure that people will be able to watch this encode correctly using the DivX 5 decoder.


Should I now reduce the "Max consecutive BVOP's" to 1? I did my tests with 2 and it was fine, but if I don't reduce it to 1, what will happen exactly? Compatibility/sync issues for people who don't have XviD?

Here is my exact setup for my XviD videos compatible with DivX now that I have selected Packed bitstream :

Image

This should be my last question on this topic (I hope! :P). I cannot thank you enough.
Thanks to: Qyot27, Jaddziadax, BasharOfTheAges, Scintilla, Post-It, Anubisx00, Kariudo and everyone else for helping this Newby out! :P

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Postby Scintilla » Sun Sep 09, 2007 7:58 pm

Kero777 wrote:Should I now reduce the "Max consecutive BVOP's" to 1? I did my tests with 2 and it was fine, but if I don't reduce it to 1, what will happen exactly? Compatibility/sync issues for people who don't have XviD?

I would say yes, reduce it to 1, but be aware that this will hurt your compressibility somewhat.

However, that page is a few years old by now, and the newer versions of the DivX decoder may not have this problem anymore. I would suggest installing a copy of the DivX codec (version 5 or later), encoding the video with FourCC DX50 (DivX should then be the first choice to decode this instead of XviD, assuming you don't have ffdshow or have its DX50 support disabled), and playing it back to see if there are any problems.
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Postby Qyot27 » Mon Sep 10, 2007 7:50 am

Scintilla wrote:
Kero777 wrote:Should I now reduce the "Max consecutive BVOP's" to 1? I did my tests with 2 and it was fine, but if I don't reduce it to 1, what will happen exactly? Compatibility/sync issues for people who don't have XviD?

I would say yes, reduce it to 1, but be aware that this will hurt your compressibility somewhat.

However, that page is a few years old by now, and the newer versions of the DivX decoder may not have this problem anymore. I would suggest installing a copy of the DivX codec (version 5 or later), encoding the video with FourCC DX50 (DivX should then be the first choice to decode this instead of XviD, assuming you don't have ffdshow or have its DX50 support disabled), and playing it back to see if there are any problems.

I use ffdshow (if that's not selected it defaults back to DivX 5.2 and XviD 1.1.3), and I certainly don't see a sync problem even when 2 are selected, regardless of which one is doing the decoding or whether Packed Bitstream is selected also or not. As this was the source of the problem then a sure-fire way to bypass the issue, as I'd suggested testing earlier, is using MP4 or MKV and allowing the video stream to be Native MPEG-4 rather than specially hacked to fit inside of AVI. The problems experienced here deal explicitly with the issue of AVI not supporting B-frames and thus to have them, they need to be hacked in.

The hacks simply come with a price (that is, potential audio desync), but because of how ingrained DivX/XviD-encoded AVIs are, putting them into a container that properly supports the B-frames, even if it is the one defined in the MPEG-4 standard, will make for people complaining at you because they can't play it back or have something against other containers (probably based on bad experiences or a preconceived notion that MP4 or MKV equals H.264 rather than MPEG-4 Visual - DivX or XviD - and therefore processor choke because on average, H.264 requires more powerful hardware).
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Postby Kero777 » Mon Sep 10, 2007 2:07 pm

Unfortunately, I was wrong about what I posted yesterday. :( I was dumb and previewed a part that didn't really have as much "timing" to it as other. It's still... off... :(

Scintilla wrote:I would say yes, reduce it to 1, but be aware that this will hurt your compressibility somewhat.


I may still stick with this method, but I hope it doesn't hurt it too much because I have trouble with some videos' compression. :D

Scintilla wrote:However, that page is a few years old by now, and the newer versions of the DivX decoder may not have this problem anymore. I would suggest installing a copy of the DivX codec (version 5 or later), encoding the video with FourCC DX50 (DivX should then be the first choice to decode this instead of XviD, assuming you don't have ffdshow or have its DX50 support disabled), and playing it back to see if there are any problems.


Ah, yes. This is what I have been doing: Been choosing XviD and then DX50 for the FourCC to make it more compatible. It's just not many people seem to have this problem at all besides my friend and I and a couple of other people on this website.

Qyot27 wrote:I use ffdshow (if that's not selected it defaults back to DivX 5.2 and XviD 1.1.3), and I certainly don't see a sync problem even when 2 are selected, regardless of which one is doing the decoding or whether Packed Bitstream is selected also or not.


For the FourCC? I chose not to install ffdshow with the AMVapp because I was told it conflicted with some other codecs. I had a lot of trouble with codecs on my old computer.

Qyot27 wrote:As this was the source of the problem then a sure-fire way to bypass the issue, as I'd suggested testing earlier, is using MP4 or MKV and allowing the video stream to be Native MPEG-4 rather than specially hacked to fit inside of AVI. The problems experienced here deal explicitly with the issue of AVI not supporting B-frames and thus to have them, they need to be hacked in.


I tried using MKV with the compression of MP4 (did I understand you correctly? Not actually using AVI at all?) and the quality was horrid for some reason. :shock: It does seem to play smooth though. For some reason I do not have the other options. Maybe missing codecs?

Qyot27 wrote:The hacks simply come with a price (that is, potential audio desync), but because of how ingrained DivX/XviD-encoded AVIs are, putting them into a container that properly supports the B-frames, even if it is the one defined in the MPEG-4 standard, will make for people complaining at you because they can't play it back or have something against other containers (probably based on bad experiences or a preconceived notion that MP4 or MKV equals H.264 rather than MPEG-4 Visual - DivX or XviD - and therefore processor choke because on average, H.264 requires more powerful hardware).


That stinks... so it's either not-as-good sync or compatibility issues and people won't be able to watch it. I'm really stuck. I still feel like I am doing something wrong with the DivX compatible XviD file conversion described in the guides. I'm going to go re-read the last sections again. Is there a guide for the MKV conversion? Maybe I am doing that wrong too. I hate to keep bothering everyone with so many questions. Thanks so much for your time. It's appreciated tons :D *Feels very stupid right now*
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Postby Qyot27 » Mon Sep 10, 2007 5:16 pm

Kero777 wrote:For the FourCC? I chose not to install ffdshow with the AMVapp because I was told it conflicted with some other codecs. I had a lot of trouble with codecs on my old computer.

For the FourCC it doesn't seem to matter if it's XVID or DX50. I use DX50 for my own encodes (well, the ones that I encode using XviD, anyway). Old, decrepit versions of ffdshow are known to pop up in codec packs and conflict with the rest of the codecs the same packs install, but I certainly haven't experienced problems arising from using ffdshow. In it's configuration you can tell it which ones to handle, and if it seems to cause a problem with a particular format, you can just tell it not to decode that one.

The version of ffdshow I use is from the ffdshow-tryouts project, located here:
http://sourceforge.net/project/showfile ... _id=173941

I've stopped keeping track of which version is in the AMVapp, since the page there is guaranteed to have the very latest builds (which on average, occur at least once a week). I'm sure the new AMVapp beta uses one of the tryouts builds, but I don't know which one.

I tried using MKV with the compression of MP4 (did I understand you correctly? Not actually using AVI at all?) and the quality was horrid for some reason. :shock: It does seem to play smooth though. For some reason I do not have the other options. Maybe missing codecs?

I meant, use the MP4 container or the MKV container. DivX and XviD are implementations of MPEG-4 Part 2, specifically Advanced Simple Profile (ASP). The MP4 container is another part of the MPEG-4 standard. H.264 (which is causing the MP4 container to gain popularity around here, but it's also used for AAC audio like the purchases from the iTunes store) is MPEG-4 Part 10. Both ASP and H.264 can be stored inside MP4. Think of it like MPEG-1 or MPEG-2 and their respective Program or Transport streams.

Is there a guide for the MKV conversion? Maybe I am doing that wrong too.

For MKV, all you *need* to do is take your already-encoded XviD AVI file, load up MKVMerge GUI, click the add button on the main screen, select your video and audio (or just the video if it has the audio already attached), go to the Muxing menu, click 'Add command line options', select --engage native_mpeg4 from the drop-down menu, click Add, then go back to the main screen and mux as usual.

The part for MP4 is mostly setting up the program.

For MP4, you'll need YAMB. I use 1.6.0, which you can find at that link (which is the developer's personal site; newer versions can be found on the official website, but these instructions are for the older version - if you want to use the newer ones then this will probably act as a good guideline, at any rate). If it tells you it needs libmmd.dll, it's also at that link where 1.6.0 is. Go to the Options tab, and select Enable Import Settings (you might also have to tell YAMB where MP4Box is, use the arrow next to General on the same Settings tab and choose MP4Box - you'll see the place where you can tell it where the executable is, which should be in YAMB's Program Files folder - typically C:\Program Files\YAMB\ or wherever it was that you chose to install the program to during setup).

Go back to the Mux tab, click Add and select your already-encoded XviD AVI file. The Import Settings dialog will show up. Make sure that Remove N-VOPs and Import only Video Track is selected. It can automatically detect the framerate from AVI files so you more than likely won't need to use the Force framerate option. Click OK and it'll go back to the main screen. Now to add your audio, click Add again and choose your audio, the dialog will pop up again; you won't even be able to access the N-VOPs or framerate options so don't worry about them, make sure the Import only Audio Track is selected and press OK. Now just click Mux and it'll do it's thing. That's it.
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Postby Kero777 » Fri Sep 14, 2007 1:26 pm

I apologize for taking ages to reply! :shock: I've been caught up in some things.

Qyot27 wrote:For the FourCC it doesn't seem to matter if it's XVID or DX50. I use DX50 for my own encodes (well, the ones that I encode using XviD, anyway). Old, decrepit versions of ffdshow are known to pop up in codec packs and conflict with the rest of the codecs the same packs install, but I certainly haven't experienced problems arising from using ffdshow. In it's configuration you can tell it which ones to handle, and if it seems to cause a problem with a particular format, you can just tell it not to decode that one.

The version of ffdshow I use is from the ffdshow-tryouts project, located here:
http://sourceforge.net/project/showfile ... _id=173941


Yes, I installed a codec pack before and even after uninstalling I had the same problems. Thank you for the link. I might try that.

Qyot27 wrote:For MP4, you'll need YAMB. I use 1.6.0, which you can find at that link (which is the developer's personal site; newer versions can be found on the official website, but these instructions are for the older version - if you want to use the newer ones then this will probably act as a good guideline, at any rate). If it tells you it needs libmmd.dll, it's also at that link where 1.6.0 is. Go to the Options tab, and select Enable Import Settings (you might also have to tell YAMB where MP4Box is, use the arrow next to General on the same Settings tab and choose MP4Box - you'll see the place where you can tell it where the executable is, which should be in YAMB's Program Files folder - typically C:\Program Files\YAMB\ or wherever it was that you chose to install the program to during setup).

Go back to the Mux tab, click Add and select your already-encoded XviD AVI file. The Import Settings dialog will show up. Make sure that Remove N-VOPs and Import only Video Track is selected. It can automatically detect the framerate from AVI files so you more than likely won't need to use the Force framerate option. Click OK and it'll go back to the main screen. Now to add your audio, click Add again and choose your audio, the dialog will pop up again; you won't even be able to access the N-VOPs or framerate options so don't worry about them, make sure the Import only Audio Track is selected and press OK. Now just click Mux and it'll do it's thing. That's it.


I downloaded the YAMB program above. I appreciated your very long and precise directions, but unfortunately I get an error when trying to use the program. "Error importing ___" and "Mux Failed" I only tried it with one file, and didn't restart my computer after installation which is probably the cause so I will try it again as soon as I get a chance.

I tried to use another program for converting to MP4 with the guide here: http://www.animemusicvideos.org/guides/avtechbeta/zarx264gui.html. That put my sync off even more than XviD. *Sigh* I don't think AAC audio has anything to do with it. It's supposed to be "more efficient than MP3."

I have yet to try the MKV program you suggested. I am confused though: It's required to convert the files to XviD with V-DubMod before using the programs you suggested, but if I am trying to get them to sync up better when XviD throws off the sync and converting to them to XviD before I put convert them to MP4 or MKV, it couldn't really fix the sync, could it? :(

Again, sorry for the late reply!
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Postby Qyot27 » Fri Sep 14, 2007 2:40 pm

Kero777 wrote:I am confused though: It's required to convert the files to XviD with V-DubMod before using the programs you suggested, but if I am trying to get them to sync up better when XviD throws off the sync and converting to them to XviD before I put convert them to MP4 or MKV, it couldn't really fix the sync, could it? :(

Well, I'm working off the assumption that it isn't XviD itself that's causing the problems, but rather the hacks needed to store XviD (more specifically, when used with B-frames) in AVI that are the source of the desync. The options for YAMB and MKVMerge that I outlined are meant to store the video stream the way it's supposed to be, which means no hacks, and hence there shouldn't be desync unless something else is wrong. It involves specifically analyzing the video and placing the frames correctly rather than trying to pack them together or do other wonky things with them.

I guess a simpler way of testing this would be to just disable B-frames entirely when you encode to AVI and see if that fixes it. If it does, you know the desync is the fault of the hacks needed to store B-frames in AVI. You'll take an efficiency hit, but if it's just that causing the problem, using MP4 or MKV should take care of it.

With zarx264gui, that's not even XviD you're dealing with - it's H.264. And no, AAC shouldn't cause more or less desync problems than MP3. As H.264 is more hardware-intensive, though, maybe that was simply a result of your computer's processor not keeping up with how fast it needs to go to decode the content smoothly.
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