AVIsynth for MAC users

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Postby Gepetto » Wed Jun 13, 2007 4:56 pm

Qyot27 wrote:unless Apple has made it possible to decode H.264 Lossless through their own components, putting the encode in MP4 won't amount to much.


OS X has native support for H264 (I don't know specifically about the lossless mode, but I've never heard otherwise) and MP4, so it should work.

Qyot27 wrote:That's primarily because of the B-frames and Reference frames.


Are you sure? MPEG-4 ASP has those as well, and it works well in AVI. (even though with a much smaller complexity)

Sorry for the stupid questions, but I have absolutely no in-depth knowledge about containers.
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Postby Qyot27 » Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:21 pm

Gepetto wrote:OS X has native support for H264 (I don't know specifically about the lossless mode, but I've never heard otherwise) and MP4, so it should work.

Last I checked, the native support Apple has given for H.264 - in reference to Quicktime, anyway - wasn't nearly as complete as ffdshow or CoreAVC support is. For instance, I don't believe High Profile was supported at all, and Main Profile was severely limited if it was even supported at all. As it stood, the early H.264-encoded trailers from the Quicktime site were made with a bastardized version of Baseline Profile that supported B-frames.

In general reference, AMVs and fansubs are more than likely to overwhelmingly make use of High Profile because of the massive compression gains. I'm sure Lossless mode is in the same boat, so it would be necessary for Apple to have updated their support.

Gepetto wrote:
Qyot27 wrote:That's primarily because of the B-frames and Reference frames.


Are you sure? MPEG-4 ASP has those as well, and it works well in AVI. (even though with a much smaller complexity)

Sorry for the stupid questions, but I have absolutely no in-depth knowledge about containers.

It's still a rather hacky solution to force ASP into AVI specifically because of the B-frames - since AVI doesn't support B-frames, the DivX and XviD teams hacked them in, albeit in differing ways (this is where the Packed Bitstream option comes from, as well as the source of the B-frame decoder lag error message/legacy initial black frame in XviD-based ASP encodes in AVI). There really isn't anything else that comes to mind which I think would affect it, except maybe the GMC warp points, but I know next-to-nothing about that feature.

H.264 allows a heck of a lot more B-frames and Reference frames than ASP does, though, and that's where the shit hits the fan when trying to stuff it into AVI, as the other options (discounting things that work on Reference and B-frames, like Mixed refs and the B-pyramid, which really should not be done in AVI). It requires even worse hacks and because AVI isn't equipped to handle it, it keels over and you get sync problems. To remedy the problem and make H.264 function without sync problems, the solution is not to use B-frames or Reference frames (or at least limit their usage to 1 or 2 as one would with XviD's VFW encoder, although that will still eventually introduce the lagging problem as well) and especially not Mixed refs or the B-pyramid, but in doing so it seriously affects the ability of H.264 to compress as well as it can - even if the resulting quality is still better than a comparably-sized ASP encode.
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Postby Kalium » Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:32 pm

I once asked an Apple guy (as in worked for Apple) this very question.

I got a t-shirt instead of an answer.

OK, OK, it was a stump-the-experts event, where you either got your question answered or a prize. I wanted an answer.
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Postby Greggus1 » Thu Jun 14, 2007 8:49 am

Qyot27 wrote:
Greggus1 wrote:In addition, there seems to be no real way to disable B-frames, or at least I didn't see one in the options.

Not even setting B-frames to 0 worked?

There doesn't seem to be a simple B-frames checkbox, with custom amount or not. There are alot of options though, and I may have interpreted some wrong.

Anyway, the x.264 MP4 simply will not encode in Lossless mode.I get an error at 99 percent. I wonder if it's me :/
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Postby Qyot27 » Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:11 am

Greggus1 wrote:
Qyot27 wrote:
Greggus1 wrote:In addition, there seems to be no real way to disable B-frames, or at least I didn't see one in the options.

Not even setting B-frames to 0 worked?

There doesn't seem to be a simple B-frames checkbox, with custom amount or not. There are alot of options though, and I may have interpreted some wrong.

Anyway, the x.264 MP4 simply will not encode in Lossless mode.I get an error at 99 percent. I wonder if it's me :/

Granted, I've got the Windows version of Avidemux in front of me, but after selecting x264 from the Video drop-down menu, click the Configure button. The Reference frame option and the various B-frame options are on the 'Motion & Misc' and 'Partitions & Frames' tabs, respectively.
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Postby Greggus1 » Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:22 am

Qyot27 wrote:
Greggus1 wrote:
Qyot27 wrote:
Greggus1 wrote:In addition, there seems to be no real way to disable B-frames, or at least I didn't see one in the options.

Not even setting B-frames to 0 worked?

There doesn't seem to be a simple B-frames checkbox, with custom amount or not. There are alot of options though, and I may have interpreted some wrong.

Anyway, the x.264 MP4 simply will not encode in Lossless mode.I get an error at 99 percent. I wonder if it's me :/

Granted, I've got the Windows version of Avidemux in front of me, but after selecting x264 from the Video drop-down menu, click the Configure button. The Reference frame option and the various B-frame options are on the 'Motion & Misc' and 'Partitions & Frames' tabs, respectively.

Right, hadn't paid attention to reference frames. But does the minimum quantizer level in "Rate Control" refuse to go under 10 on your version as well?
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Postby Shazzy » Thu Jun 14, 2007 1:08 pm

Greggus1 wrote:
Anyway, the x.264 MP4 simply will not encode in Lossless mode.I get an error at 99 percent. I wonder if it's me :/


It encodes fine for me, but I can't open the finished file in an editing/export program, even with both Perian and Berlios' QuickTime x264 component installed. Plays in VLC, but that's it.
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Postby Qyot27 » Thu Jun 14, 2007 2:32 pm

Greggus1 wrote:Right, hadn't paid attention to reference frames. But does the minimum quantizer level in "Rate Control" refuse to go under 10 on your version as well?

I would assume that's just its default setting. Absolutely ensuring a Lossless encode would be done by making both the minimum and maximum quantizers 0.
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Postby Greggus1 » Thu Jun 14, 2007 3:02 pm

Qyot27 wrote:
Greggus1 wrote:Right, hadn't paid attention to reference frames. But does the minimum quantizer level in "Rate Control" refuse to go under 10 on your version as well?

I would assume that's just its default setting. Absolutely ensuring a Lossless encode would be done by making both the minimum and maximum quantizers 0.

No no, the tab that would allow going down below 10 is grayed out.
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Postby Qyot27 » Thu Jun 14, 2007 5:06 pm

Greggus1 wrote:
Qyot27 wrote:
Greggus1 wrote:Right, hadn't paid attention to reference frames. But does the minimum quantizer level in "Rate Control" refuse to go under 10 on your version as well?

I would assume that's just its default setting. Absolutely ensuring a Lossless encode would be done by making both the minimum and maximum quantizers 0.

No no, the tab that would allow going down below 10 is grayed out.

Oh, then it probably wasn't even being used, seeing as how the encoding quantizer setting was below 10, it probably automatically disables that option.

The reason my answer probably seemed out of left field is because I'd already deleted Avidemux and was just trying to recall from memory.
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Postby Tab. » Thu Jun 14, 2007 6:43 pm

Guys, QuickTime supports all of Baseline and Main Profiles, just no High Profile (yet). As soon as Blu-ray drives for Mac come out, expect to see HP support in QT.
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