P.O.E Season 3 : Semifinals Results - The Final 3 Are Here!

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Re: P.O.E Season 3 : Semifinals Results - The Final 3 Are He

Postby RAWdangers » Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:36 pm

Congrats to all who moved on and get some good rest because I'm looking forward to your videos for the next round :up:

Now on to the more pressing issue in this thread ;) I'm going to put this in a spoiler to save people from my enormous block of text x'D
Spoiler :
Let's look at what the theme was:
CodeZTM wrote:For this round, create an AMV based on your favorite AMV ever cataloged here on a-m-v.org. This AMV should be your own creative spin on on your favorite AMV, and not just a clone of the previous one. You do not necessarily have to use the same anime (though you can), but the audio must remain the same (remixes/covers of the same song are permitted).

Nowhere in here does it say that you have to keep the same mood of the AMV, the same tone, etc, etc. In fact, it says that you should put your own creative spin on the video, which is exactly what Animated did. If the theme had stated, "Make a Tribute to your favorite AMV" then maybe I could see him losing on theme points there, however that was not the case. He put his own creative spin on "Creating Something Beautiful." Just because it was a horror version of the video does not diminish the effort he put into creating the video, nor the fact that he did follow the theme to the letter.

Based on some of the comments I read in the judging section I felt that some of the judges could not separate their feelings for the original AMV and the POE AMV. The only influence the original video should have had, in my opinion, is whether or not the POE video was based on it. Did they use the same song and are there some general elements from the original video that are distinctive in the POE video? Does the POE video bring something new to the original video? Whether or not you liked the original video more than the POE video should not count against the person creating the AMV. 99 times out of 100 people are going to prefer the original to the tribute/remake/etc. Thats why its a favorite video, because people like it! Making the standard that you had to like the POE as much or more than the original is a ridiculous standard to hold when judging.

Chiisus wrote:I watched the video and all I could think of was 'no' because it's not the kind of video I personally can enjoy watching. I get the whole 'doing the opposite' of the original video thing, but I never got the feeling that it was your favourite video because no one (in my opinion) would change a video so drastically that it loses its charm as a favourite video. I honestly don't understand why you would do that to your favourite video. XD I mean, it's good to do something different but to that extent just makes it seem like a troll video.

I'm going to be blunt here, but based on this statement, I would not want you judging a contest such as POE. Nothing personally against you, but I would not be able to take a judgement from you seriously. Yes, personal opinion does have an effect on judging, I 100% agree with that, but to what degree is what makes a good judge and a bad judge. There are standards in place that the judges do have to adhere to and that is to judge them based on 5 standards, "Concept, Theme, Audio/Visual, Sync/Editing, Overall." Nowhere in there is "Is this my type of video? Does it personally fit my tastes?" If a video has solid editing, hits the theme, has pretty decent audio/visual quality, and has a clear concept, but you decided to give it a bad score because "It doesn't fit my tastes" then you are a bad judge. And who's to say that the video isn't his favorite? Do you get to decide what video is his favorite and what isn't? No, that comes down to the AMV maker. For all you know, it could actually be his favorite video and if you judged him based on that feeling that you don't think its his favorite video, well you just screwed him over because you made a serious misjudgment. it's like saying you convicted someone of being guilty of a crime "because they looked guilty." The judging criteria had nothing to do with whether or not it was his favorite video, it had to do with did he put his own creative spin on what he considers his favorite video.

Imagine something like this: You're in a judged debate about gay marriage. You are parliament and are affirming the statement "Gay marriage should be legalized" and the opposition is arguing against that. The judge is a member of the Westboro Baptist Church, a strongly anti-gay organization. At this point, you wonder why are you even having this debate because you know no matter how well you debate, the judge is not going to change their personal opinion on gay rights."
Do you think its fair that this debate be judged based on the fact that the judge personally does not believe in gay rights?
If I had been editing this round and I knew, coming into this round, that the judge was going to deduct points form me simply because my AMV wasn't "Their preferred type of AMV" then I would have quit right there and not edited anything for this round, and I'm sure Animated would have too. There's no point in having a competition if the judge is already decided what they're going to pick.
Again, I understand that personal opinion is going to slightly effect scores and how judges view the criteria they judge by. However, in order to have as fair a competition as possible, a judge needs to separate themselves from their personal feelings about an AMV as much as possible and judge by the criteria. I felt that some judges were unable to do that and deducted points just because they didn't "like" the type of amv.


Well there's my two cents. Again, congratulations to those who moved on, I enjoyed all your videos and you definitely deserve to move on.
P.S. Kit, if you're reading this, feel free to count the number of times I use the word "judge" xP
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Re: P.O.E Season 3 : Semifinals Results - The Final 3 Are He

Postby Animated » Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:48 pm

Lets get some things straight, before I alienate more editors and become the black sheep of the forum. Basically, let's end this stuff once and for all here.

First of all, Creating Something Beautiful IS one of my favourite videos. And trying to be original by all means, is one of my ways to get to the top (I was one of the 3 winners of the CDVV contest with a video named Marmalade F#ck-up, who can easily forget a video with such a name?). This time I took it a step (or more) further, by making a love-it-or-hate-it video. It's not that I don't respect the original video, I love it - I only wanted to do something REALLY extraordinary (look at all this drama after all) that would be remembered, instead of another run-of-the-mill tribute video that would have added nothing special to the old one. And in the end, the audience was diversed between supporters and haters. Ok, let's say I hate hentai. Let's say I have to rate an HMV, that's really good (I don't imply that my entry was good, it's an example), edited perfectly, but hey it's hentai, screw that shit. I'm an aknowledged judge, and this video could have been better with a plain anime: What do? Follow AimoAio's path, rating videos as objectively as I can, even though it's not my cup of tea.

To tell the truth, Nya's 6/20 hit me very hard. It's an 3/10, aka 1/5 or a star rating. I have come to the semifinals with a video to be treated by a famous judge with a rating of only one star? No. I understand it's not your cup of tea, you may have found it offensive, but still. I, for one, can't stand romantic videos with happy couples, kissing, and instrumental piano songs - that doesn't mean I'm gonna rape that video to death with my rating. Anyway. At least I'm greatful you took the time to ask for a second opinion on this, thank you.

JaddziaDax wrote:Insulting the judges in your comments probably didn't help

No, don't tell me that! I never insulted anyone, nor did I have the intention to do so. I just used you as an example because I had a solid point, the perfect 20s. And trust me, I'm not the (only) one to be against some of the judges. There was lots of talking on our POE skype chatroom about the judges before the competition even started, if they were the right choices and so on. And guess what, someone had predicted what would happen in a case similar to my video, writing down what your reactions would be: and they were all true. Biased or not, most of the judges were predictable on their ratings.

Last words on this: I don't hate anyone. If I were to throw rocks against anyone that said a bad word on my video, I would have already left in anger. Those 4 weeks were very challenging and fun, and I want to thank Code for bringing the Project Editor once again this year. There are some changes I want to see on the next org contests, but now's not the proper time to discuss about this. Let's end this drama here, shall we.

Edit: Thank you, RAWdangers. I just couldn't have said it better. Especially this:
If I had been editing this round and I knew, coming into this round, that the judge was going to deduct points form me simply because my AMV wasn't "Their preferred type of AMV" then I would have quit right there and not edited anything for this round, and I'm sure Animated would have too. There's no point in having a competition if the judge is already decided what they're going to pick.

I had stated this thing in the beginning, this video is probably going to be burned by judges. If you notice my first words on the description I gave, it was saying something like "Please, don't be biased against this kind of video, thank you".

So, this is it.
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Re: P.O.E Season 3 : Semifinals Results - The Final 3 Are He

Postby Nya-chan Production » Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:49 pm

RAWdangers wrote:Congrats to all who moved on and get some good rest because I'm looking forward to your videos for the next round :up:

Now on to the more pressing issue in this thread ;) I'm going to put this in a spoiler to save people from my enormous block of text x'D
Spoiler :
Let's look at what the theme was:
CodeZTM wrote:For this round, create an AMV based on your favorite AMV ever cataloged here on a-m-v.org. This AMV should be your own creative spin on on your favorite AMV, and not just a clone of the previous one. You do not necessarily have to use the same anime (though you can), but the audio must remain the same (remixes/covers of the same song are permitted).

Nowhere in here does it say that you have to keep the same mood of the AMV, the same tone, etc, etc. In fact, it says that you should put your own creative spin on the video, which is exactly what Animated did. If the theme had stated, "Make a Tribute to your favorite AMV" then maybe I could see him losing on theme points there, however that was not the case. He put his own creative spin on "Creating Something Beautiful." Just because it was a horror version of the video does not diminish the effort he put into creating the video, nor the fact that he did follow the theme to the letter.

Based on some of the comments I read in the judging section I felt that some of the judges could not separate their feelings for the original AMV and the POE AMV. The only influence the original video should have had, in my opinion, is whether or not the POE video was based on it. Did they use the same song and are there some general elements from the original video that are distinctive in the POE video? Does the POE video bring something new to the original video? Whether or not you liked the original video more than the POE video should not count against the person creating the AMV. 99 times out of 100 people are going to prefer the original to the tribute/remake/etc. Thats why its a favorite video, because people like it! Making the standard that you had to like the POE as much or more than the original is a ridiculous standard to hold when judging.

Chiisus wrote:I watched the video and all I could think of was 'no' because it's not the kind of video I personally can enjoy watching. I get the whole 'doing the opposite' of the original video thing, but I never got the feeling that it was your favourite video because no one (in my opinion) would change a video so drastically that it loses its charm as a favourite video. I honestly don't understand why you would do that to your favourite video. XD I mean, it's good to do something different but to that extent just makes it seem like a troll video.

I'm going to be blunt here, but based on this statement, I would not want you judging a contest such as POE. Nothing personally against you, but I would not be able to take a judgement from you seriously. Yes, personal opinion does have an effect on judging, I 100% agree with that, but to what degree is what makes a good judge and a bad judge. There are standards in place that the judges do have to adhere to and that is to judge them based on 5 standards, "Concept, Theme, Audio/Visual, Sync/Editing, Overall." Nowhere in there is "Is this my type of video? Does it personally fit my tastes?" If a video has solid editing, hits the theme, has pretty decent audio/visual quality, and has a clear concept, but you decided to give it a bad score because "It doesn't fit my tastes" then you are a bad judge. And who's to say that the video isn't his favorite? Do you get to decide what video is his favorite and what isn't? No, that comes down to the AMV maker. For all you know, it could actually be his favorite video and if you judged him based on that feeling that you don't think its his favorite video, well you just screwed him over because you made a serious misjudgment. it's like saying you convicted someone of being guilty of a crime "because they looked guilty." The judging criteria had nothing to do with whether or not it was his favorite video, it had to do with did he put his own creative spin on what he considers his favorite video.

Imagine something like this: You're in a judged debate about gay marriage. You are parliament and are affirming the statement "Gay marriage should be legalized" and the opposition is arguing against that. The judge is a member of the Westboro Baptist Church, a strongly anti-gay organization. At this point, you wonder why are you even having this debate because you know no matter how well you debate, the judge is not going to change their personal opinion on gay rights."
Do you think its fair that this debate be judged based on the fact that the judge personally does not believe in gay rights?
If I had been editing this round and I knew, coming into this round, that the judge was going to deduct points form me simply because my AMV wasn't "Their preferred type of AMV" then I would have quit right there and not edited anything for this round, and I'm sure Animated would have too. There's no point in having a competition if the judge is already decided what they're going to pick.
Again, I understand that personal opinion is going to slightly effect scores and how judges view the criteria they judge by. However, in order to have as fair a competition as possible, a judge needs to separate themselves from their personal feelings about an AMV as much as possible and judge by the criteria. I felt that some judges were unable to do that and deducted points just because they didn't "like" the type of amv.


Well there's my two cents. Again, congratulations to those who moved on, I enjoyed all your videos and you definitely deserve to move on.
P.S. Kit, if you're reading this, feel free to count the number of times I use the word "judge" xP

I didn't like the video in a relation to the original and as a standalone piece as well. Just throwing it in.
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Re: P.O.E Season 3 : Semifinals Results - The Final 3 Are He

Postby Nya-chan Production » Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:05 pm

Animated wrote:To tell the truth, Nya's 6/20 hit me very hard. It's an 3/10, aka 1/5 or a star rating. I have come to the semifinals with a video to be treated by a famous judge with a rating of only one star? No. I understand it's not your cup of tea, you may have found it offensive, but still. I, for one, can't stand romantic videos with happy couples, kissing, and instrumental piano songs - that doesn't mean I'm gonna rape that video to death with my rating. Anyway. At least I'm greatful you took the time to ask for a second opinion on this, thank you.

I'll reply to just this, because the rest has been pretty much discussed thoroughly and this is aimed at me directly ^^

Yes, if I rated this on our star rating, I'd wonder between one and two stars. Is that wrong of me? Maybe... ^^;

And the point in this is, the judging is biased and subjective. It will always be. Heck, it's the main reason why there is not just one judge but more of them!

That said, I think that subjectivity should be accepted as a part of a rating process. Of course, there are the objective categories, video/audio, sync, concept and them, mostly... but I think that there should be something in the rating, that should tell the editor whether it ""hit the person". Because, let's admit it, if the video is shiny and all, but fails to leave any mark on the watcher, then there's something wrong.

Of course, there can be something wrong with the watcher. That's why there are multiple judges - if it doesn't click with any of them, then we can see that it's a good chance that it's objective(?) Of course that depends on the selection, but we could be going like this forever~

Simply said, for me this is a mechanism to differentiate between the top. There are hundreds of perfectly edited video, but it's that subjective feeling of "it has it" or "it doesn't have it" that works for the most people. Something that helps you tell between a classic and a very nice, greatly polished, but still a generic turd. This, for example, are my main issues with Nostromo vids, qwaqa vids or the recent shiny crossover wave (except Our tapes, maybe). They just don't work with me, so I can't give them 10/10. That would be lying to myself and to the editors. Your case was rather extreme, but let's say it like this - when I watched it I wondered how could "anyone" like it. Saw that it was perfectly edited and stuff, but still wondered about that. Seems I was wrong (good for you!), but I just can't go and give it a 16-20/20 as in "this video works out really well" when I have a feelings like that about it.

Did I digress to much? Probably =w=
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Re: P.O.E Season 3 : Semifinals Results - The Final 3 Are He

Postby RAWdangers » Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:10 pm

Nya-chan Production wrote:I didn't like the video in a relation to the original and as a standalone piece as well. Just throwing it in.


I believe I cover my opinion on judging the video in relation to the original in Long Judging Rant § 2.02b RAWdanger’s Opinion on Judging in relation to the original video x3
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Re: P.O.E Season 3 : Semifinals Results - The Final 3 Are He

Postby Radical_Yue » Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:12 pm

Nya-chan Production wrote:I didn't like the video in a relation to the original and as a standalone piece as well. Just throwing it in.


This + the comment on old videos. It's more of just a general insult to be honest and I was just kind of left wondering why anyone felt that it should be included it at all.

Here is what is wrong with the video + I hate this. kthnxbai


Wat?
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Re: P.O.E Season 3 : Semifinals Results - The Final 3 Are He

Postby SilverFreedoms » Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:47 pm

Imaget had to be said: the world is perishing from an orgy of self-sacrifice.

in Ayn Rand's _The Fountainhead
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Re: P.O.E Season 3 : Semifinals Results - The Final 3 Are He

Postby CodeZTM » Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:51 pm

Just a reminder to everyone that I run an exit survey at the end of every contest to help improve future contests. Please don't hesitate to comment on it about topics you feel passionately about. This contest is for the public of a-m-v.org and those who come and join us, and if you're not happy, then I'm not doing my job! I naturally can't please everyone, but I will do my hardest. Or if you want to talk to me about something, just shoot me a pm. You don't have to wait for the survey. It's especially important this year, and you'll see why. ;)

Anyhoo, I hope everyone can move forward and root for our final 3! This should be the hardest challenge yet coming their way this Friday, and I hope to see others editing as well in a non-competing fashion! :up:

Also don't forget we still have the "fan favorite" contest to do after the final round concludes! The video from any round or any editor with the most votes will also receive a prize! Voting will begin once all 3 finalists have published their videos, during the judging of the final round.

I'll also try and do something fancy for the results. Maybe not a livestream, but maybe some YouTube promo video people can watch if they want!
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Re: P.O.E Season 3 : Semifinals Results - The Final 3 Are He

Postby Kisanzi » Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:53 pm

Yay for a small break before the last round to recharge my batteries. Thank you Code!

@everyone in thread: Points have been made by both sides, let's just get back to enjoying what we do here again please?

@chiiisus: Thanks for posting your honest thoughts, it only makes me want to pull out all the stops for the last round even more. Granted, I've already been editing myself sick for a couple of the rounds. >.< But I'm having fun, so totally worth it.

Just to clarify, I wasn't complaining earlier just voicing my thoughts. I appreciate everything that Code, the judges, and my fellow contestants have done for the contest thus far. I have greatly enjoyed my time in the orgeditor contests thus far and have to give props to everybody for keeping with it and giving me a reason to get off my ass and actually edit. :P
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Re: P.O.E Season 3 : Semifinals Results - The Final 3 Are He

Postby Nya-chan Production » Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:59 pm

Radical_Yue wrote:
Nya-chan Production wrote:I didn't like the video in a relation to the original and as a standalone piece as well. Just throwing it in.


This + the comment on old videos. It's more of just a general insult to be honest and I was just kind of left wondering why anyone felt that it should be included it at all.

Here is what is wrong with the video + I hate this. kthnxbai


Wat?

Should've been more precise, it's mostly an answer to this by RAWdangers:
"Based on some of the comments I read in the judging section I felt that some of the judges could not separate their feelings for the original AMV and the POE AMV."
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Re: P.O.E Season 3 : Semifinals Results - The Final 3 Are He

Postby JaddziaDax » Wed Apr 10, 2013 7:08 pm

Animated wrote:
JaddziaDax wrote:Insulting the judges in your comments probably didn't help

No, don't tell me that! I never insulted anyone, nor did I have the intention to do so. I just used you as an example because I had a solid point, the perfect 20s. And trust me, I'm not the (only) one to be against some of the judges. There was lots of talking on our POE skype chatroom about the judges before the competition even started, if they were the right choices and so on. And guess what, someone had predicted what would happen in a case similar to my video, writing down what your reactions would be: and they were all true. Biased or not, most of the judges were predictable on their ratings.


Making assumptions of my (or any of the other judges) taste without knowing who I am and what I really like is insulting to me. You don't know me, and don't you dare assume you do. Maybe I took your assumption a little personally, but next time keep them to yourself before jumping the gun. I don't care if I'm easy to predict, I really don't. But don't just assume that I won't be objective and then beg me to be objective next time, or maybe I will be more subjective than I am.

I am biased anyway I've been saying it all along. :shark:
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Re: P.O.E Season 3 : Semifinals Results - The Final 3 Are He

Postby Chiiisus » Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:40 pm

RAWdangers wrote:I'm going to be blunt here, but based on this statement, I would not want you judging a contest such as POE. Nothing personally against you, but I would not be able to take a judgement from you seriously.


I would NEVER want to judge a contest anyway. I don't think any editor can be completely unbiased, because no matter what an opinion will always be factored into any scoring that they give. I don't expect anyone to take 'judgement' from me seriously because I'm not a judge, I'm just an editor with my own opinion. I love Animated's editing and a lot of his other videos. I was just throwing in my two cents.

Your example is a bit of a stretch. :roll:
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Re: P.O.E Season 3 : Semifinals Results - The Final 3 Are He

Postby AngelDragoon » Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:50 pm

Congrats to the final 3! |:> Looking forward to see who pulls out all the stops and wins this thing!

Speaking of the final round, will the details be posted later this evening or later Friday evening? The explanation was a little confusing... :uhoh:
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Re: P.O.E Season 3 : Semifinals Results - The Final 3 Are He

Postby CodeZTM » Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:04 pm

AngelDragoon wrote:Congrats to the final 3! |:> Looking forward to see who pulls out all the stops and wins this thing!

Speaking of the final round, will the details be posted later this evening or later Friday evening? The explanation was a little confusing... :uhoh:


Everything will be posted Friday evening.
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Re: P.O.E Season 3 : Semifinals Results - The Final 3 Are He

Postby Shin-AMV » Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:02 pm

I try to judge as objectively as possible and have scored a lot of videos I'm not a fan of a lot higher or videos I like a lot lower because of what the judging criteria call for, so my overall rankings rarely reflect my personal taste in videos. I usually try to step outside of myself and think how others might view each video and if any groups of people would find enjoyment in a particular video or not. I'm not a fan of a few different genre's of videos but I try to evaluate and think in terms of "If I'm a fan of comedy/psycadellic/drama/action/etc. would I consider this video any good?"

I think animated's video turns on the fact if you enjoyed black humor or not. I like some black humor sometimes, but the video as a whole wasn't really to my taste, but if I was a fan of black humor I thought the video would have a lot to offer. I had really mixed feelings before even watching Animated's video because of the NSFW tag but after watching it I was a little surprised to find a video that was fairly well edited with good scene selection to accomplish its goal. Examining the scene selection and editing it really demonstrated an aptitude to really emphasize the absurdity of the song and the visuals to really nail what it was trying to be and it did go a little overboard on it, but it needed too because the original Creating Something Beautiful is full of so much good happytime feels that it needed to pump out the same level of OMG Feels but just on the other side of the spectrum.

But anyways, I don't want to tell other judges how to judge, and a certain amount of subjectivity is a given, but if too much subjective taste or personal bias is involved in judging then the best way for editors to approach this contest would be to effectively just pander to the tastes of the judges and that would have a stifling effect on creativity and diversity.

TL:DR - I worry that people will pander to judges and we'll have a landslide of cute upbeat videos in the future.
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