[beta.a-m-v.org] Hey, we're semi-official

Re: [beta.a-m-v.org] Hey, we're semi-official

Postby I Fight For The Users » Sun Aug 05, 2012 11:42 pm

CodeZTM wrote:
I Fight For The Users wrote:
CodeZTM wrote:Out of curiosity, what is the funcationality of the quick comment and opinion system going to be like? I know it's not the most important thing right now, but it's just something that I'm curious about (as both of them are something that I use frequently).


Leaving them out for now; will probably open up a beta without them. (This doesn't mean that existing QC/opinion data will be deleted; there's no reason to delete it.)

I (with the rest of the Machine) have been tossing around an idea for alternative system that may spur greater activity: https://github.com/amvorg-underground/catalog/issues/31

That issue doesn't really describe the system in that much detail, but that's because I don't have much else concrete to write about it at the moment.


I guess what I really want to know is if there will still be a scored ranking system and area for comments about the videos. Considering the activity of the Announcement Forum, this is really the only way most people can get somewhat valuable critiques. I'd also be sad to see the top 10% gone.


The present answer is "no", because it's not on this list: https://github.com/amvorg-underground/catalog/issues

Feel free to add suggestions there. I much prefer that forum of discussion to this one.

That said:

I do think public video comments are useful. (I think hiding them is pointless: if you're going to comment, sign your handle and own up to it. The .org only does half of that and it frustrates me.)

For critiques, I am studying DeviantArt and ConceptArt.org's critique systems. They do it far better than the .org has ever done, and I want to learn why.
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Re: [beta.a-m-v.org] Hey, we're semi-official

Postby CodeZTM » Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:16 am

Thanks for the link, I wasn't aware it was there. Then again, I haven't checked the official website for the design, mostly because it's fairly intimidating and I don't know half of what I'm reading. :lol:

I do agree that the private QC system is irritating, as recent journal entries from Fay-Sa and others have clearly pointed out. So I'm all for that, but I still hope we maintain some sort of the opinion system to some degree. As I said earlier, I still think it has a valuable application (assuming there are a few alterations to the current system) if it were more user friendly.

I'll think a little more about the system and leave a suggestion on that system once I have my thoughts more in order.
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Re: [beta.a-m-v.org] Hey, we're semi-official

Postby Kaream » Mon Aug 06, 2012 4:44 am

I really like the direction this is headed towards. I urged for a re-design two years ago, and happy to see it happening.
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Re: [beta.a-m-v.org] Hey, we're semi-official

Postby Nya-chan Production » Mon Aug 06, 2012 7:13 am

I Fight For The Users wrote:
Nya-chan Production wrote:
Pwolf wrote:I don't understand what the problem is with the home page and why you're saying it resembles a hospital floor.

1) It has no colors, other than the video
2) It is pretty much sterile. Like a floor. Or a beton block. Except the, well, video.
3) The creator has repeatedly said that he would like to keep it this way.


1) You are refusing to engage your imagination.
2) You are eliminating a large amount of subtlety with (3) (at this point, I think intentionally so), and I feel that I must counter your poison.

Yes, there's a lot of image placeholders right now. Think of what they can look like once they're filled in. Think of what pages will look like with additional systems not yet built: recommendations and badges (e.g. "featured video for 2012-12-21") are two such things that I'd like to explore.

I wrote:The sterility of each page depends on two things.

1. The user managing the page (e.g. profile, video pages).
2. For search pages, it is the set of users whose videos/profiles/etc. show up in the results.

The degree to which this new layout appears sterile is therefore entirely up to you.


Content (in the form of video text, supporting images, and the videos themselves) comes first; the design is a shell to organize that content. Even that drop shadow on the main container serves that purpose by separating body from links.

Shaded boxes, colored text, and divider lines are not necessary to implement that goal. They can improve organization when used carefully, but I will not add them just because someone thinks it needs to be kicked up a notch. In many cases this is due to incomplete implementation; however, in some cases (e.g. some video information pages), it is a direct reflection of the sad state of that video catalog data. And I think that's fine; it's honest design.

---

I have said this before, but it probably bears repeating:

If you do not like my design decisions, you are free to fork the codebase, add whatever you want, and deploy. You are free to leverage all the other changes I have made or will make, as I have made the entire codebase available under various free software licenses. You are even free to use the database, as I am committed to keeping it replicable by others.

You don't even need to fork the code, really. You could just start your own.

Thank you, that's what I wanted to hear, instead of "It isn't sterile, your opinion is invalid." It cleared my thoughts about it a lot and answered my questions (even those that I didn't say, in fact).
I am just curious - do I have to fork? I'd prefer some one-way (for now) branch to which I can merge code from master and work on that alternatively, mainly because I have no real place to deploy to (and I don't know what would be necessary to deploy anyway). I wonder if that's acceptable, though :3
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Re: [beta.a-m-v.org] Hey, we're semi-official

Postby BasharOfTheAges » Mon Aug 06, 2012 8:44 am

Just gotta say, the sentiment behind "don't like the way I'm doing it? fork your own branch and change things." doesn't really mesh with having a feedback thread - especially if you want feedback from non-developers (i.e. the overwhelming majority of the user-base).
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Re: [beta.a-m-v.org] Hey, we're semi-official

Postby I Fight For The Users » Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:18 am

BasharOfTheAges wrote:Just gotta say, the sentiment behind "don't like the way I'm doing it? fork your own branch and change things." doesn't really mesh with having a feedback thread - especially if you want feedback from non-developers (i.e. the overwhelming majority of the user-base).


Oh, hi Slashdot. Two responses.

Sanya-nya has suggested changes based on a fundamentally incompatible design philosophy that I have rejected many times. The only solution forward in that case is forking. (Unless there exists a good explanation for why the present philosophy is wrong which nobody has yet advanced.)

Additionally, I am not interested in everyone's feedback. If I seriously considered everyone's opinion, the end product would be shit. I am instead working with a small group of people who I have come to trust. (So far: Ileia, AisuzuZwei, and Brad has chimed in about typefaces.) Membership is not closed, but I do give more serious consideration to feedback that demonstrates more than superficial knowledge of my goals and design principles.

The end product here might still fail, but it won't fail from lack of focus. (You know, because the past few years of this design thing have seen so much progress.)
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Re: [beta.a-m-v.org] Hey, we're semi-official

Postby BasharOfTheAges » Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:05 pm

I Fight For The Users wrote:
BasharOfTheAges wrote:Just gotta say, the sentiment behind "don't like the way I'm doing it? fork your own branch and change things." doesn't really mesh with having a feedback thread - especially if you want feedback from non-developers (i.e. the overwhelming majority of the user-base).


Oh, hi Slashdot. Two responses.

Sanya-nya has suggested changes based on a fundamentally incompatible design philosophy that I have rejected many times. The only solution forward in that case is forking. (Unless there exists a good explanation for why the present philosophy is wrong which nobody has yet advanced.)

Additionally, I am not interested in everyone's feedback. If I seriously considered everyone's opinion, the end product would be shit. I am instead working with a small group of people who I have come to trust. (So far: Ileia, AisuzuZwei, and Brad has chimed in about typefaces.) Membership is not closed, but I do give more serious consideration to feedback that demonstrates more than superficial knowledge of my goals and design principles.

The end product here might still fail, but it won't fail from lack of focus. (You know, because the past few years of this design thing have seen so much progress.)

Oh, I fully understand development choices have to be made and stuck to if progress is to happen. I almost feel like you're presenting a comment box that will get dumped in the trash because it's the polite thing to do and gives the illusion of interaction so you can point to it being there if people complain when it's all done. Like it's just a formality. Stuck between that and doing completely closed door design work, I can see where that might be the more palatable option.

Don't mind me - i just like pointing out things that seem silly to me.
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Re: [beta.a-m-v.org] Hey, we're semi-official

Postby Nya-chan Production » Mon Aug 06, 2012 1:04 pm

First, I would like to state that I am writing this posts (and all of my feedback in these threads) as myself. Don't associate my posts with my role as a moderator. It hasn't happened yet, but just in case ;x

I Fight For The Users wrote:
BasharOfTheAges wrote:Just gotta say, the sentiment behind "don't like the way I'm doing it? fork your own branch and change things." doesn't really mesh with having a feedback thread - especially if you want feedback from non-developers (i.e. the overwhelming majority of the user-base).

Sanya-nya has suggested changes based on a fundamentally incompatible design philosophy that I have rejected many times. The only solution forward in that case is forking. (Unless there exists a good explanation for why the present philosophy is wrong which nobody has yet advanced.)


Point 1:
Yeah. I wonder what I can do with said fork. Present it to my future employees, maybe, telling them: "Oh, and by the way, would you be interested in running an AMV database?"

I don't want to sound ill here, but as it stands now you're the basically only person willing and wanting to program this stuff here on the Org. Yes, there are probably some people, maybe even tens of people who could do it. But they don't have time or will to do it. And of those who could learn it, it's even worse, because they would have to learn it and only THEN write it. (As for me, I have no profficiency in RoR, Couch, Lucene, Perl, nor Mojolicious. I could probably get the grasp and start helping, supposed I'd dedicate two or three months to it, as I've got the very basics of the "usual" stuff - php, Python, C#. Will I? No, most probably not.)
How do I know? Well, there's not anyone helping you write it, is there? No, discussions with people on #Grommet about what to use and tech stuff don't count. You're the only one who commits to this project.

And at this state, telling anyone to fork is just saying: "Hey, you can fork this, and play with it, but you won't be able to do anything with it until you have few months to learn to play with it. And by then my work will be done anyway (and will be ways better, because I know how to write in this) and you'll have a useless fork at your hands which you can show your friends."

I Fight For The Users wrote:Additionally, I am not interested in everyone's feedback. If I seriously considered everyone's opinion, the end product would be shit. I am instead working with a small group of people who I have come to trust. (So far: Ileia, AisuzuZwei, and Brad has chimed in about typefaces.) Membership is not closed, but I do give more serious consideration to feedback that demonstrates more than superficial knowledge of my goals and design principles.


Point 2:
You've just undermined the very three threads you've made here, congratulations. The fact that you don't even consider feedback from some people (you wrote that yourself) is highly disheartening. And at this point the question arises, why don't you just pick those few people you trust and develop showing the website to only them?
And as for the last sentence - I know that you have the most power (if not all of it), writing the code. But from that sentence it seems that you know the best what is good for the community. Aaaand... I think that's not a good thing. If I wanted to, I could make a really ugly comparison here. And you could reply with a really nice comparison in reply. Well... after all, I just want to say that I don't think it's a good thing to decide about the whole community for itself. Again.

I Fight For The Users wrote:The end product here might still fail, but it won't fail from lack of focus. (You know, because the past few years of this design thing have seen so much progress.)


Point 3:¨
My biggest fear at this moment? That even after all that mentioned above the final result will be fine. This way or that way. But no-one will be able to work with it except you and we'll get to dokidoki doing all the things again. Except it will be you and not doki. A perfectly documented and perfectly written website is kind of... useless if you want to add a new feature, or change an old one, and find out that you can't find anyone who works in RoR/Lucene and is able and willing to dedicate some considerable amount of time to it.

Hah... lots of useless words FTW. I can already see how I am losing anyway orz
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Re: [beta.a-m-v.org] Hey, we're semi-official

Postby Nya-chan Production » Mon Aug 06, 2012 1:07 pm

(And a little useless addendum: I don't see you fighting for users in any of these threads. I see you fighting for your view of how Org should work and look like. Which is a great difference.)
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Re: [beta.a-m-v.org] Hey, we're semi-official

Postby irriadin » Mon Aug 06, 2012 1:26 pm

His point about not taking advice from everyone should be taken to mean that... if he DID take everyone's advice, he'd produce something totally worthless. Design by committee is a good way to destroy things, you've got to know what to acknowledge and what to discard. That being said, he should at least listen to everyone, and if the majority of the users suggest something, it should be worth looking at, at the very least.
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Re: [beta.a-m-v.org] Hey, we're semi-official

Postby Pwolf » Mon Aug 06, 2012 1:48 pm

Nya-chan Production wrote:
I Fight For The Users wrote:Additionally, I am not interested in everyone's feedback. If I seriously considered everyone's opinion, the end product would be shit. I am instead working with a small group of people who I have come to trust. (So far: Ileia, AisuzuZwei, and Brad has chimed in about typefaces.) Membership is not closed, but I do give more serious consideration to feedback that demonstrates more than superficial knowledge of my goals and design principles.


Point 2:
You've just undermined the very three threads you've made here, congratulations. The fact that you don't even consider feedback from some people (you wrote that yourself) is highly disheartening. And at this point the question arises, why don't you just pick those few people you trust and develop showing the website to only them?
And as for the last sentence - I know that you have the most power (if not all of it), writing the code. But from that sentence it seems that you know the best what is good for the community. Aaaand... I think that's not a good thing. If I wanted to, I could make a really ugly comparison here. And you could reply with a really nice comparison in reply. Well... after all, I just want to say that I don't think it's a good thing to decide about the whole community for itself. Again.


I don't think so. He is posting these threads to get feedback and show people that something is being done instead of keeping it all hush-hush like we were doing before. David is creating a website based on the issues that have been presented in the past and has come up with what he thinks is the best way to tackle those issues. At this point there is no way to know for sure if it will work or not without having a full working website for us all to use and test. Your feedback thus far has basically suggested that it wont work and he should start over using someone else's ideas that he doesn't agree with. That's not productive at all. We can sit here and argue over what features we all want or what colors we want to see, or we can help David make something that will actually work by giving him feedback that's productive and relevant to what's actually being done.

It's been over two years and there's been nothing to show on the org's side as far as a redesign is concerned, aside from some database designs. Even then, without my intervention, there probably wouldn't be any work or thought about a redesign in the first place since the administration wanted to keep it under wraps until stuff was done, which nothing has been done to a point where they would've gone public. And, on that note, the threads I posted weren't meant to gather up all the ideas and impliment them all. They were to generate discussion which in turn would help get people motivated to do something, which David has done. I think we should all be grateful SOMEONE is doing something and at least give them the benefit of the doubt that they do indeed know what could be best for the org considering we, as a community, can't seem to figure that out ourselves anyway.
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Re: [beta.a-m-v.org] Hey, we're semi-official

Postby I Fight For The Users » Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:09 pm

BasharOfTheAges wrote:Oh, I fully understand development choices have to be made and stuck to if progress is to happen. I almost feel like you're presenting a comment box that will get dumped in the trash because it's the polite thing to do and gives the illusion of interaction so you can point to it being there if people complain when it's all done. Like it's just a formality. Stuck between that and doing completely closed door design work, I can see where that might be the more palatable option.


Have you read https://github.com/amvorg-underground/catalog/issues?

Those have all been filed by me. About half of them were actually thought up by me. If there's a closed comment box then I don't know where it is.

Sanya-nya wrote:You've just undermined the very three threads you've made here, congratulations. The fact that you don't even consider feedback from some people (you wrote that yourself) is highly disheartening. And at this point the question arises, why don't you just pick those few people you trust and develop showing the website to only them?


You and Bashar are complaining about a development process because I don't like your ideas about colors and offered you the opportunity to try out your ideas.

Uh-huh.

---

I'm going to end my involvement in this thread now, as it has become counterproductive. I am not, however, going to stop posting updates. If you filter out all the noise from Sanya-nya and Bashar, there's been good comments (thanks, CodeZTM, Driftroot, and pwolf), so evidently the forum thread mechanism still works.

In the meantime, file future feature requests and bug reports at https://github.com/amvorg-underground/catalog/issues.
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Re: [beta.a-m-v.org] Hey, we're semi-official

Postby BasharOfTheAges » Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:40 pm

I Fight For The Users wrote:
BasharOfTheAges wrote:Oh, I fully understand development choices have to be made and stuck to if progress is to happen. I almost feel like you're presenting a comment box that will get dumped in the trash because it's the polite thing to do and gives the illusion of interaction so you can point to it being there if people complain when it's all done. Like it's just a formality. Stuck between that and doing completely closed door design work, I can see where that might be the more palatable option.


Have you read https://github.com/amvorg-underground/catalog/issues?

Those have all been filed by me. About half of them were actually thought up by me. If there's a closed comment box then I don't know where it is.
By the tone of your responses, I'm gonna have to say this sub-forum mostly, this thread in particular. You're using a github repository - that right there should be the signal that you don't want feedback from the general org population - you want informed users, you want to segregate the development off-site and limit feedback to knowledgeable people. That's 100% cool, and I agree with that mentality entirely. I just don't see the point of this whole sub forum if that's the way things are. It seems, as i said before, kinda silly.

To be more on topic: I find the current site mock-ups to be rather empty. I dislike the lack of any real top or side menu structure for quick links to where I want to go, not that there is anywhere to go at the moment. I find the case sensitivity of user-names in the direct link examples you gave to be overly burdensome. I'm not sure how I feel about allowing javascript in general for security reasons. All in all, I think it's still too early to really be giving feedback - it seems like a skeleton of a few aspects of the site - until our current feature sets are more integrated into the design, I can't see how it all fits together.
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Re: [beta.a-m-v.org] Hey, we're semi-official

Postby Nya-chan Production » Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:51 pm

Pwolf wrote:
Nya-chan Production wrote:
I Fight For The Users wrote:Additionally, I am not interested in everyone's feedback. If I seriously considered everyone's opinion, the end product would be shit. I am instead working with a small group of people who I have come to trust. (So far: Ileia, AisuzuZwei, and Brad has chimed in about typefaces.) Membership is not closed, but I do give more serious consideration to feedback that demonstrates more than superficial knowledge of my goals and design principles.


Point 2:
You've just undermined the very three threads you've made here, congratulations. The fact that you don't even consider feedback from some people (you wrote that yourself) is highly disheartening. And at this point the question arises, why don't you just pick those few people you trust and develop showing the website to only them?
And as for the last sentence - I know that you have the most power (if not all of it), writing the code. But from that sentence it seems that you know the best what is good for the community. Aaaand... I think that's not a good thing. If I wanted to, I could make a really ugly comparison here. And you could reply with a really nice comparison in reply. Well... after all, I just want to say that I don't think it's a good thing to decide about the whole community for itself. Again.


I don't think so. He is posting these threads to get feedback and show people that something is being done instead of keeping it all hush-hush like we were doing before. David is creating a website based on the issues that have been presented in the past and has come up with what he thinks is the best way to tackle those issues. At this point there is no way to know for sure if it will work or not without having a full working website for us all to use and test. Your feedback thus far has basically suggested that it wont work and he should start over using someone else's ideas that he doesn't agree with. That's not productive at all. We can sit here and argue over what features we all want or what colors we want to see, or we can help David make something that will actually work by giving him feedback that's productive and relevant to what's actually being done.

It's been over two years and there's been nothing to show on the org's side as far as a redesign is concerned, aside from some database designs. Even then, without my intervention, there probably wouldn't be any work or thought about a redesign in the first place since the administration wanted to keep it under wraps until stuff was done, which nothing has been done to a point where they would've gone public. And, on that note, the threads I posted weren't meant to gather up all the ideas and impliment them all. They were to generate discussion which in turn would help get people motivated to do something, which David has done. I think we should all be grateful SOMEONE is doing something and at least give them the benefit of the doubt that they do indeed know what could be best for the org considering we, as a community, can't seem to figure that out ourselves anyway.

Believe me, I am very glad that something is shaping up. If I weren't, I'd just drop reading these threads and stopped contributing ideas at all. The fact that I try to see something that can be improved and try to offer it backs it up, I hope.

The thing is, I browse every release, but so far it's been all such basic things and flawlessly executed, that I just haven't found any broken functionality or things that I'd improve. I think that's a great thing, actually (and I am probably a bit lousy tester at this stage of coding). So I turn to what I think I could say something about, the graphical design, which even trythil said goes hand in hand with actual coding.

Still, every such issue is downplayed, and as you see, my ideas are not even considered anymore, instead I can pretty much fork and finish the whole page myself and then play with colors. Surely lifted my spirits.

I Fight For The Users wrote:
BasharOfTheAges wrote:Oh, I fully understand development choices have to be made and stuck to if progress is to happen. I almost feel like you're presenting a comment box that will get dumped in the trash because it's the polite thing to do and gives the illusion of interaction so you can point to it being there if people complain when it's all done. Like it's just a formality. Stuck between that and doing completely closed door design work, I can see where that might be the more palatable option.


Have you read https://github.com/amvorg-underground/catalog/issues?

Those have all been filed by me. About half of them were actually thought up by me. If there's a closed comment box then I don't know where it is.

That issue log probably shows up that the Org users don't even know how to make git issues, or aren't willing to register to github just to file an issue. Maybe this idea of "The org users will file git issues" is wrong from the start - because most users won't, even those, who have good ideas and can see bugs I don't.
In fact I think 99% of the Org users even don't read these threads.

I Fight For The Users wrote:
Sanya-nya wrote:You've just undermined the very three threads you've made here, congratulations. The fact that you don't even consider feedback from some people (you wrote that yourself) is highly disheartening. And at this point the question arises, why don't you just pick those few people you trust and develop showing the website to only them?


You and Bashar are complaining about a development process because I don't like your ideas about colors and offered you the opportunity to try out your ideas.

Uh-huh.

---

I'm going to end my involvement in this thread now, as it has become counterproductive. I am not, however, going to stop posting updates. If you filter out all the noise from Sanya-nya and Bashar, there's been good comments (thanks, CodeZTM, Driftroot, and pwolf), so evidently the forum thread mechanism still works.

In the meantime, file future feature requests and bug reports at https://github.com/amvorg-underground/catalog/issues.


You offered me to FORK this stuff and then throw my stuff on top of it. Even if I wanted to, I don't know HOW (considering the structure and languages we've been talking about. Yes, I still haven't found the time to read about those THREE different technologies I need just to write up some CSS). I don't know WHERE would I put the fork. And nevermind that I would have to put up either a Linux dual boot or a VM, with your disc image and hope nothing gets broken (because I reinstalled an OS recently and the installation is gone).
And believe me, those 30-60 minutes you spent with me fixing various problems are nothing compared to normal user who just wants to help by saying "I think this color is ugly" and doesn't know how to run a Terminal. What are you going to tell him? Fork it? Make a github account?

I want to go and tell you "I don't think it should be this clean". More people want to, as you've seen. But it's not possible, instead the reply is "You can spend days, or even months on this thing I could try within an hour or so (though maybe later in the project, when more stuff is there). And then present it to me/people and we might consider it. Or throw it away".
I doubt anyone would want to spend months on a thing that might get thrown away in a minute.

And btw, this is exactly the problem I mentioned. Almost NOBODY here is able to do ANY technical stuff with what you're working on/with. Not now, not in the future. And if anyone outside a small circle of people isn't allowed to help or raise an idea, unless they file an issue/fork, then something is wrong (because I doubt Brad or others did that. No offense, but I wonder, how they got to that imagined inner circle of yours. Other than their idea of the page being similar to yours, that is.).
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Re: [beta.a-m-v.org] Hey, we're semi-official

Postby Pwolf » Mon Aug 06, 2012 6:08 pm

Nya-chan Production wrote:I want to go and tell you "I don't think it should be this clean". More people want to, as you've seen. But it's not possible, instead the reply is "You can spend days, or even months on this thing I could try within an hour or so (though maybe later in the project, when more stuff is there). And then present it to me/people and we might consider it. Or throw it away". I doubt anyone would want to spend months on a thing that might get thrown away in a minute.


The situation wouldn't be much different if the languages and frameworks were different. You're still going to have to learn them and that's going to take time. On top of that it's counter productive to just stop what you're doing and start making changes based on request. If you want to make changes, fork the code. If you don't know how, learn how. If it takes months, so be it, at least then you'll have a better understanding of the code and god forbid you help at that point.

You can also open up photoshop and make visual changes yourself.
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