Grave of the Fireflies.

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Postby kthulhu » Fri Dec 13, 2002 1:54 pm

Wykith wrote:U.S.A. lost in Vietnam and though it may have pushed troops out in Desert storm, Husein is still in power. So you kicked a thief out of your friend's house, Well done! But since you're so high and mighty why didn't you catch him when you had the chance?


The supposed "high and mighty" UN told us not to, or so I've heard.
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Postby jonmartensen » Fri Dec 13, 2002 2:23 pm

Wykith wrote:
CaTaClYsM wrote:You are overlooking that fact that the japanese were WARNED before the nuclear bombs were dropped, and when you look at the fact that they didn't surrender right after the first one, think about how far they were willing to go if those bombs WERENT dropped.

And those biological wepons the japanese were testing on real people werent speculation or opinions. You can saythe US isn't the goodguy of WW2 all you want, but it WAS the lesser of 2 evils. That cannot be denied.


CaTaClYsM, you can't justify death with more death or less death. There is no "lesser" evil. Both are equally guilty.


Right, just like a drive by is the exact same as mass genocide.
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Postby jonmartensen » Fri Dec 13, 2002 2:57 pm

And once again Wykith, I state: what were you relating between WWII and the events of Sep. 11?

How is the US helping oust Russian control from Afgahnistan (for the US's own personal reasons though) and then withdrawing and no longer supplying products for free to the country related to WWII.

The alliance of the free countries of the world that had millitary power, to defend against the bid for world power by a select few is hardly similary to planes being flown into buildings. The punishment for Mass Genocide is not in the least bit similar to people angry that they no longer get free supplies from the US.

Jihad was used for political purposes long before the US even existed.

Wykith wrote:They tell jews in Israel to "back off or else" from a conflict that has nothing to do with them.


I have no clue what you are talking about here, your pronoun doesn't make sense in that it refers to the US. And you seem to be stating that Muslims and Jews would get along fine if it weren't for the US.

Wykith wrote:First they bomb your home, kill your family and burn everything you own, but at least you get sandwiches afterwards.

To what cases are you refering to here? You are implying that the US bombs cities, goes in afterwards to kill your family and burn what is left, and then gives sandwiches to the survivors. I have yet to see a case of that ever happening. Aid packages are not droped in the same places as bombs, don't think that because bombs are dropped in a country it means the entire country is getting blown to pieces.


Wykith wrote:They are the self proclaimed sheriffs of the world. The final word on what's right and wrong. Acceptable and unacceptable, true and false.

That's the UN your thinking about.



And one more time so that you might finally answer my direct question to you (for the fourth time)...
How does anything in WWII being justified or justice make the "attack of Sept. 11th Justice"? And then from that reasoning make the retaliation against the perpetraitors of the Sept. 11th attack "Murder"?
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Postby Wykith » Fri Dec 13, 2002 2:59 pm

"Kill one man and you are called a murderer. Kill a thousand and you are called a conquerer."
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Postby Wykith » Fri Dec 13, 2002 3:04 pm

John, stop being so thick. The references that don't seem to make sense to you where they're coming from, that's what happened just now in Afganistan. And that's not the UN i'm talking about. The UN is a farce and a joke. The US has the right to veto anything that comes out of the UN and since everyone has an equal vote it's mostly owned by third world countries who never get what they want anyway becaused they are vetoed.
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Postby jonmartensen » Fri Dec 13, 2002 3:29 pm

You have yet to give me a direct answer to any of my direct questions.

Wykith wrote:"Kill one man and you are called a murderer. Kill a thousand and you are called a conquerer."

Wykith wrote:John, stop being so thick.

Wykith wrote:American involvement in the war of the middle east has caused more casualties than those lost in 911. They tell jews in Israel to "back off or else" from a conflict that has nothing to do with them. So here comes Frankenstein, tired of the U.S's "soft" oppresive tactics and kicks Uncle Sam right in the fucking nuts.

Wykith wrote:Everyone's wrong. I'm not taking a side. The Axis was based on the desire of conquest. To me that makes them wrong....way wrong.
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Postby CaTaClYsM » Fri Dec 13, 2002 3:38 pm

wait a second, if the US just up and out of the blue dropped those bombs then that is evil. but if they warned japan first and japan didn't surrender, then they got what they had comming. They KNEW what would happen and kept fighting anyway. And after bomb one was dropped they were threatened with number 2, and guess what happned, still no surrender. The japanese government is at least as guilty, if not then MORE so for what happened to the people in those cities. They knew full well what was going to happen to their citizens and let the US drop those bombs.

so how can you say that the US is as bad as a government that feeds starving children chocolate wiht anthax in it, or dropping insects with the plague onto villages killing people. Or hitler and his concentration camps?
So in other words, one part of the community is waging war on another part of the community because they take their community seriously enough to want to do so. Then they tell the powerless side to get over the loss cause it's just an online community. I'm glad people make so much sense." -- Tab
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Postby Wykith » Fri Dec 13, 2002 3:45 pm

Apperently you don't . The usa was the good guys in world war 2 moron only a retard would argue that. Our standing army was dick before world war 2 the soldiers sent to fight were all new recruits not professional killers. They had a job to do and they did it because Germany and japan started a war. Like I said before if you start a war you better be able to finish it. The british bombed Dresden yes it was horrible. But waaaahh war is hell. Dresden is a german city so it got what it deserved. Do you have a concept of justice? If somebody malicously killed your brother for no reason what would you do? Re the Germans and the japanese in word war 2 murderous bloodthirsty bastards. The russians weren't much better but Germany attacked them not vice versa.



I was responding to this. My point is...........no matter how many people died here in comparison to how many people died there is no justification for murder.
That you can say that 911 was the catalyst for the war on terrorism just like you can say that Pearl Harbor was the catalyst for U.S's involvement in WWII.
That is only however if you ignore that Pearl Harbor happened because of the embargo and 911 happened because of the U.S's occupation of the middle east.
No one "deserves" war. That's my point John. I hope I got it across this time.......I know I can talk in spirals but they usually all point to where I'm going.
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Postby kthulhu » Fri Dec 13, 2002 3:58 pm

Wykith wrote:After the U.S. was done with Afganistan it abandoned them.


Yes, we did. It was foolish.

Wykith wrote:It left military personel in places the Afganistan people considered sacred and would not, despite any "peaceful" attempts by anyone, pull them out.


So we abandoned them, yet left military personnel over there? And what "peaceful" attempts?

Wykith wrote:You have to understand this is an unforgivable crime as far as muslims are concerned. Their whole p.o.v. is that America is trying to tell other people how to live their lives, what gods are okay and which ones are not. How they can treat their women, childred, and each other and how they can't.


And on the flip side, many Muslims also want the world to live the way that they say. Your point? As for us telling the Middle East what to do, the people there will sop up numerous Western ideas and goods, given the chance. Is this a good thing? Hard to tell, but the only people who have a problem with this are the Islamic clerics, religious leaders, and theocratic rulers, who stand to lose power if the people aren't afraid of the religious police or bogeymen anymore. And can anyone honestly defend many of the human rights violations that occur in the Middle East in the name of religion?

Wykith wrote:Their response to this, and pardon the continuous cursing, is Fuck you! Who the hell do you think you are!?
Now don't get me wrong I don't agree with the muslim religion but just because I don't agree with it doesn't give me the right to say that it's wrong.


What's your opinion of Christianity?

Wykith wrote:Osama bin laden hates americans. He considers them the enemy because America has it's nose in everyone's business. They come in, take what they need and leave everyone else to fend for themselves.


No, he doesn't like us because he views Americans (arguably the icon of the West) as immoral, and the fact that they were stationed in the holy Land of Sand that is Saudi Arabia angered him. As for the US plundering other countries, do you have any condemnation for the governments and leaders who allow it (US installed puppets or not)? And what about governments that plunder their own nations?

Wykith wrote:They do make the attempt to seem merciful though. First they bomb your home, kill your family and burn everything you own, but at least you get sandwiches afterwards.


In the case of Afghanistan or other conflict heavy areas of the world, the same thing happens because of local warlords, the government, even just civil strife. And you don't get sandwiches afterwards, you're lucky to be buried.

Wykith wrote:All thanx to good old thoughtful uncle Sam.


Who also provides lots of financial aid to the world, for all the non good it does.

Wykith wrote:They are the self proclaimed sheriffs of the world. The final word on what's right and wrong. Acceptable and unacceptable, true and false.


No, that would be the <a href="http://www.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel121102.asp">UN</a>, who are trying to stop the leaking bucket that is the world with paper, while saying that their method is best, instead of getting a new bucket.

Wykith wrote:This is why I've dubbed them the evil empire. They take unnecessary liberties with the power given to them.
American involvement in the war of the middle east has caused more casualties than those lost in 911.


Yes, and Europe left a great legacy with its empires. Much of Africa's problems can be traced to the imperialist control, plundering, and subsistence infrastructure that France, England, Belgium, and other nations threw over the African continent, and the power vacuum that occured when the control was either thrown off or moved out. The Soviets, to my knowledge, did what we do and gave military aid to Communist friendly countries, which caused problems. Compared to the centuries of oppression and non progress that caused, the US seems rather tame.

Wykith wrote:They tell jews in Israel to "back off or else" from a conflict that has nothing to do with them. So here comes Frankenstein, tired of the U.S's "soft" oppresive tactics and kicks Uncle Sam right in the fucking nuts.
I hate that 911 happened. But more so than that I hate that there was a reason for it to have happened.
I'm in a constant political debate with a lot of people. I know people that think 911 would have never happened if Bush wasn't president. Everyone has their opinion on the matter but none of us can change the past. All we can do is try to learn from our mistakes. Too bad those who we choose to lead us can't seem to comprehend that notion.


Yes, we should learn from the causes of 9/11. That might mean moving off the world stage for a while, and seeing what happens.
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Postby Wykith » Fri Dec 13, 2002 4:32 pm

kthulhu wrote:So we abandoned them, yet left military personnel over there? And what "peaceful" attempts?


Political delegation.



And on the flip side, many Muslims also want the world to live the way that they say. Your point?


I'm not pointing a finger. I'm saying don't point a finger because you have no right to. Thanx for proving my point though. :)


As for us telling the Middle East what to do, the people there will sop up numerous Western ideas and goods, given the chance. Is this a good thing?


Actually the fanatics are against all Western ideas and goods......including kites!

Hard to tell, but the only people who have a problem with this are the Islamic clerics, religious leaders, and theocratic rulers, who stand to lose power if the people aren't afraid of the religious police or bogeymen anymore. And can anyone honestly defend many of the human rights violations that occur in the Middle East in the name of religion?


I already said I don't agree with it but I know I don't have the right to judge it.

What's your opinion of Christianity?


I don't agree with it.



No, he doesn't like us because he views Americans (arguably the icon of the West) as immoral, and the fact that they were stationed in the holy Land of Sand that is Saudi Arabia angered him. As for the US plundering other countries, do you have any condemnation for the governments and leaders who allow it (US installed puppets or not)? And what about governments that plunder their own nations?


What about them? :? I'm not advocating anyone. I'm stating that there is no excuse for any of what's happened but action bears with it the curse of reaction.

Wykith wrote:They do make the attempt to seem merciful though. First they bomb your home, kill your family and burn everything you own, but at least you get sandwiches afterwards.


In the case of Afghanistan or other conflict heavy areas of the world, the same thing happens because of local warlords, the government, even just civil strife. And you don't get sandwiches afterwards, you're lucky to be buried.


True. Very true. So I guess you do see how silly it is to get handed a sandwich.
Wykith wrote:All thanx to good old thoughtful uncle Sam.


[quote=]Who also provides lots of financial aid to the world, for all the non good it does.[/quote]

Are you saying they feel guilty or that they are justifying all the wrong they do?

Wykith wrote:They are the self proclaimed sheriffs of the world. The final word on what's right and wrong. Acceptable and unacceptable, true and false.


No, that would be the <a href="http://www.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel121102.asp">UN</a>, who are trying to stop the leaking bucket that is the world with paper, while saying that their method is best, instead of getting a new bucket.


I totally agree on the new bucket.



Yes, and Europe left a great legacy with its empires. Much of Africa's problems can be traced to the imperialist control, plundering, and subsistence infrastructure that France, England, Belgium, and other nations threw over the African continent, and the power vacuum that occured when the control was either thrown off or moved out. The Soviets, to my knowledge, did what we do and gave military aid to Communist friendly countries, which caused problems. Compared to the centuries of oppression and non progress that caused, the US seems rather tame.


Yeah, slavery now a days is pretty tame too. And no I'm not being sarcastic.
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Postby kthulhu » Fri Dec 13, 2002 5:08 pm

And on the flip side, many Muslims also want the world to live the way that they say. Your point?

I'm not pointing a finger. I'm saying don't point a finger because you have no right to. Thanx for proving my point though. :)


No, you seem to be pointing a finger at the US as being "the big troublesome brute", while ignoring the fact that everyone in the world, given the chance, would 99% percent likely do the same thing, and maybe even worse.


As for us telling the Middle East what to do, the people there will sop up numerous Western ideas and goods, given the chance. Is this a good thing?

Actually the fanatics are against all Western ideas and goods......including kites!


I was referring to the general populace, not the fundamentalist wackos in charge. They are against it because, besides the possibility of spiritual corruption, it may sway the populace into not wanting to follow the religious hardline anymore. Yet, the fundamentalists DO use the high tech goods they rail against, if they're the only ones who can use or gain benefit from them.

Hard to tell, but the only people who have a problem with this are the Islamic clerics, religious leaders, and theocratic rulers, who stand to lose power if the people aren't afraid of the religious police or bogeymen anymore. And can anyone honestly defend many of the human rights violations that occur in the Middle East in the name of religion?

I already said I don't agree with it but I know I don't have the right to judge it.


And why don't you? For that matter, do you think the people over there have the right (moral, psychological, whatever not legal) to judge what others of their own kind do? If someone across the street from you was beating their wife and children to a bloody pulp everyday, and claiming it's his "custom" to do so, because his religion, people, whatnot say so, would you hold your tongue because you can't tell him he's wrong to do so, less you "offend" him? Custom is not concrete, nor is it sacred because it's "right", or "right" because it's "sacred".

No, he doesn't like us because he views Americans (arguably the icon of the West) as immoral, and the fact that they were stationed in the holy Land of Sand that is Saudi Arabia angered him. As for the US plundering other countries, do you have any condemnation for the governments and leaders who allow it (US installed puppets or not)? And what about governments that plunder their own nations?


Wykith wrote:What about them? :? I'm not advocating anyone. I'm stating that there is no excuse for any of what's happened but action bears with it the curse of reaction.


Why single out the US as the bad guy, when there are many governments that are just as bad, or worse, and cause more direct suffering than the US does? Or is it just because you "can't judge others"?

Wykith wrote:All thanx to good old thoughtful uncle Sam.

kthulhu wrote:Who also provides lots of financial aid to the world, for all the non good it does.


Are you saying they feel guilty or that they are justifying all the wrong they do?


I'm saying the US is wasting money and resources on 3rd World countries that either dislike us half for good reasons and half because we provide a distraction from local problems for the government, or that use the aid for their military to keep the people oppressed.

Wykith wrote:They are the self proclaimed sheriffs of the world. The final word on what's right and wrong. Acceptable and unacceptable, true and false.

kthulhu wrote:No, that would be the <a href="http://www.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel121102.asp">UN</a>, who are trying to stop the leaking bucket that is the world with paper, while saying that their method is best, instead of getting a new bucket.


I totally agree on the new bucket.
[/quote]

Good, we agree on something.

Yes, and Europe left a great legacy with its empires. Much of Africa's problems can be traced to the imperialist control, plundering, and subsistence infrastructure that France, England, Belgium, and other nations threw over the African continent, and the power vacuum that occured when the control was either thrown off or moved out. The Soviets, to my knowledge, did what we do and gave military aid to Communist friendly countries, which caused problems. Compared to the centuries of oppression and non progress that caused, the US seems rather tame.

Yeah, slavery now a days is pretty tame too. And no I'm not being sarcastic.


Care to expound on this some more?
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Postby Wykith » Fri Dec 13, 2002 5:28 pm

No, you seem to be pointing a finger at the US as being "the big troublesome brute", while ignoring the fact that everyone in the world, given the chance, would 99% percent likely do the same thing, and maybe even worse.


I know, so does that make them right?






I was referring to the general populace, not the fundamentalist wackos in charge. They are against it because, besides the possibility of spiritual corruption, it may sway the populace into not wanting to follow the religious hardline anymore. Yet, the fundamentalists DO use the high tech goods they rail against, if they're the only ones who can use or gain benefit from them.


So since they don't have it they're jealous and call it evil? Yes I know the fundamentalist want to keep everyone in an iron grasp. It's the same with the Catholic church.(Only they lost their grip)


And why don't you? For that matter, do you think the people over there have the right (moral, psychological, whatever not legal) to judge what others of their own kind do? If someone across the street from you was beating their wife and children to a bloody pulp everyday, and claiming it's his "custom" to do so, because his religion, people, whatnot say so, would you hold your tongue because you can't tell him he's wrong to do so, less you "offend" him? Custom is not concrete, nor is it sacred because it's "right", or "right" because it's "sacred".


I don't give a shit about offending anybody. But if you saw a Japanese man about to kill himself, would you pull the knife away from his hand and tell him he'll go to hell if he kills himself? In his eyes you are making him lose face and taking away his priveledge to die with honor. Who are you to say what's right?


Why single out the US as the bad guy, when there are many governments that are just as bad, or worse, and cause more direct suffering than the US does? Or is it just because you "can't judge others"?


Excellent. I'm not singleling out the U.S. I'm focusing on it. The reason being that so many americans are so ready to look down on others, I took the time to look down on them for a while.
And you are right. Other countries do cause more direct suffering than the US does. Funny word direct.

I'm saying the US is wasting money and resources on 3rd World countries that either dislike us half for good reasons and half because we provide a distraction from local problems for the government, or that use the aid for their military to keep the people oppressed.


First of all even I don't think that that money is being wasted on 3rd World countries. Second of all, they aren't doing it out of the goodness of their blessed hearts. When they help it's not for free. It always comes with the price of Americanization.

Yes, and Europe left a great legacy with its empires. Much of Africa's problems can be traced to the imperialist control, plundering, and subsistence infrastructure that France, England, Belgium, and other nations threw over the African continent, and the power vacuum that occured when the control was either thrown off or moved out. The Soviets, to my knowledge, did what we do and gave military aid to Communist friendly countries, which caused problems. Compared to the centuries of oppression and non progress that caused, the US seems rather tame.

Yeah, slavery now a days is pretty tame too. And no I'm not being sarcastic.


Care to expound on this some more?[/quote]

Of course. Once again the U.S. is just as guilty of oppression as anyone else.
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Postby kthulhu » Fri Dec 13, 2002 5:48 pm

I was referring to the general populace, not the fundamentalist wackos in charge. They are against it because, besides the possibility of spiritual corruption, it may sway the populace into not wanting to follow the religious hardline anymore. Yet, the fundamentalists DO use the high tech goods they rail against, if they're the only ones who can use or gain benefit from them.

So since they don't have it they're jealous and call it evil? Yes I know the fundamentalist want to keep everyone in an iron grasp. It's the same with the Catholic church.(Only they lost their grip)


It's not a matter of jealousy at all. It's a matter of power, the fear of losing it, and the consequences of losing it.


And why don't you? For that matter, do you think the people over there have the right (moral, psychological, whatever not legal) to judge what others of their own kind do? If someone across the street from you was beating their wife and children to a bloody pulp everyday, and claiming it's his "custom" to do so, because his religion, people, whatnot say so, would you hold your tongue because you can't tell him he's wrong to do so, less you "offend" him? Custom is not concrete, nor is it sacred because it's "right", or "right" because it's "sacred".

I don't give a shit about offending anybody. But if you saw a Japanese man about to kill himself, would you pull the knife away from his hand and tell him he'll go to hell if he kills himself? In his eyes you are making him lose face and taking away his priveledge to die with honor. Who are you to say what's right?


Don't dodge. A single individual killing himself is, at base, hurting only himself, and can't be compared to the question I posed. I'm not religious, so the whole "going to hell thing" is bullshit for me, but I'd wonder why he's commiting suicide, and maybe make him reconsider. Beyond that, it's his own choice, and I wouldn't stop him if he absolutely had to go.

Who is to say what's right? No one and everyone is the true answer, but the bigger question is, if someone doesn't say what they think is right and wrong, then what? And, if I'm not to say what is right, and you aren't, then why complain about the right and wrong of what the US is doing? By your logic, you can't and shouldn't.

I'm saying the US is wasting money and resources on 3rd World countries that either dislike us half for good reasons and half because we provide a distraction from local problems for the government, or that use the aid for their military to keep the people oppressed.

First of all even I don't think that that money is being wasted on 3rd World countries. Second of all, they aren't doing it out of the goodness of their blessed hearts. When they help it's not for free. It always comes with the price of Americanization.


If the people accept it, then who is to say it's a bad price? No one is shoving Coca-Cola down their throats or stuffing McDonald's in their mouths, on pain of death.

Yes, and Europe left a great legacy with its empires. Much of Africa's problems can be traced to the imperialist control, plundering, and subsistence infrastructure that France, England, Belgium, and other nations threw over the African continent, and the power vacuum that occured when the control was either thrown off or moved out. The Soviets, to my knowledge, did what we do and gave military aid to Communist friendly countries, which caused problems. Compared to the centuries of oppression and non progress that caused, the US seems rather tame.

Yeah, slavery now a days is pretty tame too. And no I'm not being sarcastic.
Care to expound on this some more?

Of course. Once again the U.S. is just as guilty of oppression as anyone else.


I'm not seeing the relation between your statements here.

And in my personal opinion, despite all your "US this, oppression that" rhetoric, you seem to have a very selfish way of thinking.
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Postby Wykith » Fri Dec 13, 2002 6:03 pm

It's not a matter of jealousy at all. It's a matter of power, the fear of losing it, and the consequences of losing it.


I know the fundamentalist want to keep everyone in an iron grasp. It's the same with the Catholic church.(Only they lost their grip)

I said that.




Don't dodge. A single individual killing himself is, at base, hurting only himself, and can't be compared to the question I posed. I'm not religious, so the whole "going to hell thing" is bullshit for me, but I'd wonder why he's commiting suicide, and maybe make him reconsider. Beyond that, it's his own choice, and I wouldn't stop him if he absolutely had to go.


So it's okay for someone to die for their beliefs as long as they don't hurt anyone else in the process. I agree with that. Unfortunately that's not how things go. One person's decision will always affect those around him.

Who is to say what's right? No one and everyone is the true answer, but the bigger question is, if someone doesn't say what they think is right and wrong, then what? And, if I'm not to say what is right, and you aren't, then why complain about the right and wrong of what the US is doing? By your logic, you can't and shouldn't.


So are you debating why I think everyone has an equal right to their opinion or the fact that I focused on the U.S. for my examples?



If the people accept it, then who is to say it's a bad price? No one is shoving Coca-Cola down their throats or stuffing McDonald's in their mouths, on pain of death.


Actually, they are. In their politically correct indirect way of course, but with them it's "you want our help? Americanize or go shit a brick."

Yes, and Europe left a great legacy with its empires. Much of Africa's problems can be traced to the imperialist control, plundering, and subsistence infrastructure that France, England, Belgium, and other nations threw over the African continent, and the power vacuum that occured when the control was either thrown off or moved out. The Soviets, to my knowledge, did what we do and gave military aid to Communist friendly countries, which caused problems. Compared to the centuries of oppression and non progress that caused, the US seems rather tame.

Yeah, slavery now a days is pretty tame too. And no I'm not being sarcastic.
Care to expound on this some more?

Of course. Once again the U.S. is just as guilty of oppression as anyone else.


I'm not seeing the relation between your statements here.


Alright maybe I'm not understanding you then.

And in my personal opinion, despite all your "US this, oppression that" rhetoric, you seem to have a very selfish way of thinking.

I have to ask, is it because I'm displaying the wrongs of the evil empire?
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Postby Mroni » Fri Dec 13, 2002 6:04 pm

Aetherfukz wrote:
MrOni wrote:lOl this thread has gotten way out hand. Aethur all I'm going to do is ask you to tell me the difference between the Vietcong and the Nva.

I'm no spelling whore, but I think you got me wrong with Arthur from the round table :wink:
True, this is going a bit off topic, but nevertheless, it is an important and discussable :P discussion. But for the difference between Vietkong and Nva, as far as I know, and if I recall correctly, there is no real difference. It's just that the west refered to the Viet Minh (NVA) as the Vietkong.

Peace out,
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Sorry the vietkong were communist nuts siding with the Nva to fight the south. The Nva was the north vietnamese army.

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